Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-10-2013, 10:02 PM   #29
Vintage Kin
 
slowmover's Avatar
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,583
Images: 1
As one loads and uses it has little to do with the choice of TV. It is instantly changeable. From that point one may as well buy a Class 5 and be done with it.

I agree that poor TV selection is secondary or tertiary cause for accidents. Inability to get out of it's own way literally means there is neither time nor distance available. There is NOT safety in this direction if by safety we mean risk minimization.

I recently read a post by another contributor who, on a 2,500-mile trip had two panic stops/swerves. If I drove like that (I'm a professional) I'd know there was something wrong with me, not the rig. I cover that many miles in a week and maybe have to nail the brakes in that way a few times per year. If that.

Degrading the performance of the vehicle in re stopping or steering is the dead wrong way to go. Payload of the TV is an enormous compromise.
The size of the TV is not related to safer operation (once past 120" of wheelbase or 4k in weight), it is the opposite once past the design quality and some electronic doodads that may add to vehicle stability or braking distance.

So, back to experience. These rigs are a compromise. And limited in what they can do. No matter the TV. That this TT type is the best on the road was the important decision. Those who want "more" also ought to limit their travel speed to under 60-mph. There is no time when there is no time . . it is already too late.

That they don't (and won't) says more than needs to be said about the intelligence of believing that a pickup is the best all-around choice.

The TW can be spread across three points. Getting FALR is the first step. Not the last.

.
__________________

__________________
1990 35' Silver Streak Sterling; 9k GVWR.
2004 DODGE Cummins 305/555; 6-manual; 9k GVWR.
Hensley Arrow. 9-cpm solo, 15-cpm towing
Sold: Silver Streak Model 3411
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 11:33 PM   #30
Rivet Master
 
A W Warn's Avatar
 
2000 25' Safari
1999 34' Excella
Davidson County, NC , Highlands County, FL
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,570
Quote:
Originally Posted by RivetNV View Post
We are considering moving from our 20'FB Safari to a larger and as yet indeterminate size. I have read a lot of posts for and against going to trailer sizes longer than 25' and towing with a regular full size SUV such as Expedition or Suburban (1500), or 1/2 ton truck such as F150 or Tundra.

For those that have successfully towed the longer airstreams with these vehicles I would like to hear the details such as upgraded tires, which WD hitch (Was there a learning curve in your getting the set-up dialed in?), upgraded suspension, upgraded brakes, or even if you just left everything stock. I am hoping for the opportunity for the rest of us to learn from your success. Also, if you towed in the mountains, how was that experience? If you didn't, please mention that.

I'm hoping to get a sense of the practical (and safe) limits of these types of vehicles based on others successes.
I towed a camper for the first time around 1969-70, so I have a little experience. I towed my three different 30' Airstreams many thousands of miles safely with a 1/2 ton truck, for more than 15 years without any problems. Then I had a serious wreck. After that, I look back at what I did and consider myself lucky to have gotten by that long without any problems.

You can tow a longer heavier trailer with a 1/2 ton, and you may get by your whole lifetime without any problem, but maybe not. You can tow the same long heavy trailer with a larger heavier truck, and you may get by your whole lifetime with out any problem, but maybe not.

You can have a serious wreck with either truck, that is the risk we take every time we hook up our trailers.

My opinion is that we should make the safest choice of the equipment we use.

I suggest you consider these issues when making your tow vehicle choices:
  1. You probably do not personally know any of us on this forum who are offering you advice. Should you trust us? Some people have very strong opinions base on their personal experiences, most likely we all do. A strong opinion is not automatically correct. A large number of rivets beside our names does not mean we are more qualified than another person with fewer rivets. It only means that they have posted more frequently. You must educate yourself and weigh what your learn, since you will have to live with your choices.
  2. A 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, or 1 ton will pull any Airstream if they have similar motors and gear ratios. Is pulling capability the primary reason to choose a tow vehicle?
  3. Compare the gross weight of the tow vehicle and add the gross weight of the trailer to the tow vehicle's tow capacity rating.
  4. Compare the weight of all things inside the truck and the additional weight of the trailer tongue to the tow vehicle's load carrying capacity.
  5. Which vehicle has larger heavier brakes, heavier or lighter tow vehicle?
  6. Which vehicle has the best traction, heavier or lighter tow vehicle, especially when conditions are not good?
edit:
To answer your question about the mountain towing: Yes I tow in the Appalachian mountains often. The several Chevy 1/2 tons with 4 speed automatic strained and heated going uphill, even though they had the factory installed tow package, and sometimes the brakes would overheated on long downhill grades. The Chevy 1/2 ton with the six speed was great, no problems up or down. The 3/4 ton with a six speed that I have now does great going up or down, but uses about 10% more fuel.
__________________

__________________
Alan
2014 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab 5.3L maximum trailering package (yes, I'm towing the 34')
A W Warn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 09:11 PM   #31
Vintage Kin
 
slowmover's Avatar
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,583
Images: 1
Which TV has the best brakes is always a good question. It is rarely (probably not ever) a HD pickup. The penalties of a truck outweigh the advantage . . and that is TV payload alone. A pickup is the likely cause of a loss-of-control accident where all else is the same with this TT type.

Weight games are a red herring. An easily solved problem. And NOT to the center of what constitutes what may be the best TV.

FWIW I've been doing this since 1973. Third generation with this trailer type.

Agreed that there is but one expert around. And that is Andrew_T (Andrew Thomson of CAN AM RV) whose dealership has set up in excess of 10,000 tow rigs.

What works and why rewards those who read his threads, posts, and online articles. I understand the seminars on behalf of A/S he conducts go into this in depth. It is no different, in main, than what was recommended 40+ years ago, but with greater detail and vehicle/TT specific recommendations.


.
__________________
1990 35' Silver Streak Sterling; 9k GVWR.
2004 DODGE Cummins 305/555; 6-manual; 9k GVWR.
Hensley Arrow. 9-cpm solo, 15-cpm towing
Sold: Silver Streak Model 3411
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 10:09 PM   #32
Rivet Master
 
m.hony's Avatar
 
2013 30' Classic
Greenwood , Mississippi
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 11,828
We tow our 30' Classic with a Tundra. Original tires. Equal-I-zer 4 point hitch. Works great.
__________________
m.hony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 10:46 PM   #33
Rivet Master
 
JFScheck's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Rockville , Maryland
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,474
Images: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
Agreed that there is but one expert around. And that is Andrew_T (Andrew Thomson of CAN AM RV) whose dealership has set up in excess of 10,000 tow rigs.
And the question I would like to hear answered is how does Andy overcome the max payload limitations of these vehicles?
__________________
John "JFScheck" Scheck
2015 Roadtrek CS Adventurous XL
2015 Mercedes Sprinter 3500 XL Chassis with Mercedes BlueTec V6 Diesel
**I Love U.S.A.**
JFScheck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2013, 07:11 AM   #34
Rivet Master
 
SteveH's Avatar
 
2005 39' Land Yacht 390 XL 396
Common Sense , Texas
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFScheck View Post
And the question I would like to hear answered is how does Andy overcome the max payload limitations of these vehicles?
Well, I think it's plain to see he does not "overcome the max payload limitations", he simply ignores them.
__________________
Regards,
Steve
SteveH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2013, 07:37 AM   #35
3 Rivet Member
 
aireseneca's Avatar
 
1991 29' Excella
Akron , Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 161
Images: 6
When searching for potential matches I found this site:
New and Used Car Listings, Car Reviews and Research Guides - AOL Autos
which I found valuable because you can specify any sort of vehicle class, then add towing capacity and compare to MPG all on the same page. Excellent search tool!
__________________
Nancy and Paul..........TAC OH 34
Five Airedales and One Chocolate Lab
(no they don't all get to go in the AS at once!)
1991 Excella 29 foot w/ProPride 3P hitch
2006 Jeep Commander-V8 4.7L Tow package
aireseneca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2013, 08:24 AM   #36
Rivet Master
 
m.hony's Avatar
 
2013 30' Classic
Greenwood , Mississippi
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 11,828
I have never seen a scenario where I couldn't get the 30 into a camping spot. A 40 might be a little hard to fit...it is really a moot point because they ain't never and they won't never.
__________________
m.hony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2013, 02:09 PM   #37
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
A lot to cover.

I think Andy T strengthens the tow vehicles—either the unibody or the truck frame. I don't think he ignores weight issues.

Liability is something to think about, but not necessarily to worry about. Cops rarely have the resources or interest to calculate all the factors concerning weight, hitches, etc., that we worry about. In a serious accident with injuries, a lawyer may investigate all this and find out something. There has to be a chance of a big recovery—brain injuries, amputations, facial injury of a woman, etc. Otherwise it doesn't pay. But being cross examined about this could uncover something ("How much did the truck and contents weigh?" A: "I'm not sure". Did you weigh it at a CAT scale?" A: What is a CAT scale?"). While unlikely, it is possible this will come up.

'mover's discussion of panic stops is interesting. In roughly 45,000 miles of towing, I have had one or two. One I know was because I wasn't paying enough attention—a good lesson. If there were another, I only can remember that I might have had another one. Besides being bad for the rotors and tires, panic stops often indicate not paying attention. The hardest place to drive in on a busy urban expressway where traffic goes from moving fast to stop and go very quickly, and leaving the proper space between you and the guy in front is difficult because someone cuts in front of you and fills the space (one could argue that you have an obligation to crush their car because they asked for it, but you do have to stick around, fill out papers and get your truck fixed, so enforcing a moral imperative is not a good idea). This is the situation I most worry about.

If you want to go large, you don't have to buy diesel. Today's gas engines are very powerful. If you want to keep a truck for more than 200,000 miles (roughly), diesel may make sense.

Tundra payload (like most truck lines) varies considerably depending how fancy the truck is, cab size and length. There have been people who bought what they thought were trucks with sufficient payload and found out otherwise when they got it home; this gets expensive when you have to immediately change to another truck. Check literature carefully and when you see the truck, the payload should be listed on a plate on the driver's door opening below the B pillar. Put the payload in the sales contract as a condition of accepting the truck. Also, dealer or aftermarket installed options (running boards, toppers, etc.) will subtract from payload. Tow packages change from year to year. It appears that some Tundras did not include tow mirrors with the tow package according to some posts on other threads, but I'm not sure those people really understood what they bought. On our 2007 Tundra the tow package did include everything you'd expect including big battery, tow mirrors, big alternator, etc. The Tundra also has very big standard brake rotors for stopping and never overheats, even on Colorado passes.

And, conventional wisdom says the truck must be weight as much or more than the trailer plus a short wheelbase tow vehicle is dangerous. CW = unproved assertion that looks good until you start thinking about it. CW and "common sense" are the same. Tractor trailers can weigh as much as 40 tons and you know the tractor isn't 20 of them. And the trailer is much longer than the tractor. This question needs objective testing to find out what the truth is.

Now I can ignore this thread for another week.

Gene
__________________
Gene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2013, 02:26 PM   #38
Rivet Master
 
SteveH's Avatar
 
2005 39' Land Yacht 390 XL 396
Common Sense , Texas
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene View Post
A lot to cover.

I think Andy T strengthens the tow vehicles—either the unibody or the truck frame. I don't think he ignores weight issues.


Gene
Gene,

There are many more things that go into the calculation of a vehicle's safe weight carrying capacity than the frame or hitch. There are power trains, cooling systems, frames, axles and all their components, suspensions and all their components, brakes, wheels, tires, and on and on.

Andy T has stated that manufacturer's weight and towing capacities are arbitrary chosen and therefore meaningless.

I submit that vehicle manufacturers know infinitely more about their product's capabilities than an RV Salesman.
__________________
Regards,
Steve
SteveH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2013, 03:03 PM   #39
Rivet Master
 
Road Ruler's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
St. Catharines , South Western Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,364
Images: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post

Andy T has stated that manufacturer's weight and towing capacities are arbitrary chosen and therefore meaningless.

I submit that vehicle manufacturers know infinitely more about their product's capabilities than an RV Salesman.
I believe it is obvious Andy T takes the whole combination (as set up by him) very seriously. That explains his highly respectable safety record. Many folks I have talk to including myself go to him because of their attention to detail and the safety priority.
__________________
Airstreams..... The best towing trailers on the planet!
Road Ruler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2013, 03:07 PM   #40
Rivet Master
 
Moflash's Avatar
 
2007 28' International CCD
Springfield , Missouri
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,167
A axle has a breaking point,a frame has a breaking point,a leaf spring has a breaking point...........Attachment bolts have a breaking point.Brakes can only stop a certain amount of weight safety. The people that design and engineer them test them and post the maximum load ratings for safety purposes.Whether you choose to acknowledge this fact or ignore it that is up to you.
I see very few mini vans or short wheelbase 1/2 ton pickups substituting for a Kenworth or Peterbuilt's as I travel the interstates.And by the way a semi tractor has a massive frame huge brakes and eight rear tires and was designed and tested to pull that large trailer.They are of fifth wheel design for a reason.
In all the rambling about Andy from a few people here,I have not seen any one of them post what was actually done to their vehicle to in some cases triple the payload of their vehicle.I doubt that they even know what he did.

I am just glad Andy does not modify aircraft or bridges...............

If you are going buy a vehicle to pull a Airstream.Just make sure it is designed and tested to do the job without compromising your or my safety.
__________________
Moflash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2013, 03:58 PM   #41
Rivet Master
 
MrUKToad's Avatar

 
2011 28' International
Chatham , Ontario
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,372
Images: 17
Blog Entries: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Gene,

There are many more things that go into the calculation of a vehicle's safe weight carrying capacity than the frame or hitch. There are power trains, cooling systems, frames, axles and all their components, suspensions and all their components, brakes, wheels, tires, and on and on.

Andy T has stated that manufacturer's weight and towing capacities are arbitrary chosen and therefore meaningless.

I submit that vehicle manufacturers know infinitely more about their product's capabilities than an RV Salesman.
I think in terms of pick up trucks, you're probably right, Steve. Those vehicles are sold on their towing ability, or rather the power they have to pull heavy loads, so the manufacturers will spend time and money researching how their product will fair, most likely on the drawing board and in testing. I'm sure from stuff that I've read that manufacturers are often guilty of inflating their truck's capabilities in order to establish themselves in the market, but that's to be expected. Of course, few manufacturers are going to test their truck's capabilities using a very wide range of trailers and a very wide range of towing tools; it's much easier and cheaper to just go with a weight and publish it.

In terms of the smaller vehicles, Can Am RV's core market, then I do think Andy T is right when he says tow ratings are arbitrary, and I think he knows more than the manufacturer because he spends far more time and money test towing with these vehicles than they do. A minivan, for example, isn't marketed as a tow vehicle; it's a low margin product and their towing marketing efforts are aimed elsewhere, at the higher margin pick up truck. There's no economic reason, therefore, for them to do any tow design or test work at all just to satisfy that very small proportion of buyers who will use the minivan to tow. They just give the thing a "safe" tow rating, because the customer might want one, and continue to market at the "Soccer Mom". That doesn't mean, of course, that the minivan can't tow and that's where Andy T comes in, using his experience and a fair bit of real-world testing with differing trailers and tow tools; far more than the manufacturer will ever do, he can and does get that minivan to safely and effectively tow above the arbitrary tow rating.

Much as my friends in the Andersen threads will tell you, it's real world use that proves the product and in the case of Can Am RV, there are thousands of customers happily proving that the manufacturers' tow rating IS arbitrary.

I think in the case of vehicles not normally marketed for towing, this RV salesman really does know more than the manufacturer.
__________________
Steve; also known as Mr UK Toad

"You can't tow that with that!"

http://toadsoftowedhaul.com
MrUKToad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2013, 04:03 PM   #42
3 Rivet Member
 
2004 30' Classic
Hillsborough , New Jersey
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 189
towing

We pull our 2004 - 30 foot Classic with a 2007 Tundra (double cab). We have about 50,000 miles on both truck and trailer and have had no problems even in the mountains of Colorado. We have pulled trailers for about 35 years throughout most parts of this country and I feel very comfortable with the Tundra-Airstream combination.
__________________

__________________
wolf146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
1/2 ton


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.