Towing larger trailers with SUV or 1/2 ton trucks

[JFScheck]

Switz - I thought I was reading my own post there for a bit and was surprised when I found out my Touareg TDI actually had more payload capcaity than my F-150 EcoBoost that I purchased for a week...

Heck - my new daily driver "2014 Grand Cherokee SRT" has more max payload than that F-150 Crew Cab 4x4 EcoBoost had...

The funny world we live in....

[Safari-Rick]

Originally Posted by switz

I brought our new 2013 25FB International home behind a 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI diesel that had a CanAm modified frame receiver to support the Hensley Hitch. Being both new and empty, the rig was completely legal weight wise per the CAT scales at a Love's truck stop. However, the empty weight was more than the Mercedes service manager's recommended maximum trailer weight of 5,000 pounds. (Note that newer models of the Mercedes ML class are allowed to tow 7,200 pounds)

Since I was leaving Los Angles for the Phoenix area, I was driving the notorious 55 mph CA speed limit for vehicles towing. The diesel was turning 1,650 rpms in 7th gear as I hit the mountain grade east of Palm Springs on I-10. As the engine came under load, I down shifted to 6th gear (1,850 rpms) and at the steepest area downshifted to 5th gear (2,150 rpms) and still maintained 55 mph. I was tickled pink on how all was working. When I hit the Arizona border, the trucks resumed 75+ speeds and I cruised along at 55 mph. There was no sway action from trucks passing at a 20+ mph speed differential.

Then we loaded the trailer with our "stuff" and a full tank of water, put a jack and some other stuff in the back of the Mercedes and we drove over the scales at the local Love's truck stop. The front axle was overloaded by 58 pounds and the GVW was exceeded by nearly 300 pounds.

I realized there was no way we could bring generators with gas cans in the ML nor additional water or any other gear. We were past maxed out weight wise.

Thus the search for an adequate tow vehicle began with looking at the Ford 150 series. I quickly discovered, using several Ford factory reference materials, that only a stripped down base model could barely have the necessary load capacity to tow our trailer, which had a 1,175 pound tongue weight, and some capacity for generators and other heavy gear.

Thus my search moved to the 3/4 ton diesel arena and the Dodge was the best choice for me as I know the engine and it's components (the original turbochargers for the first generation Cummins engine in the Dodge trucks were made by my family's first licensee in England). The current Cummins engine is American designed and built in Columbus, Indiana.

I have been pleased with the drivability, stoping ability with engine braking, cargo capacity (if it fits it ships ) and power when towing the trailer. It has the reserves to handle even a 31' Airstream if that were to be in our future.

All I want to say is......."Ditto"

[RivetNV]

Gene, thank you for the clarification. I was thinking that The Nissan Titan had the receiver replaced, but now I understand that the reese was his sway control. My mistake.

I think I read elsewhere that you have the Tundra and are pleased with the towing experience. The 25FB or 27FB are two of the floorplans we are considering. You are within the payload, which is around 1700 isn't it? (with the correct equipment) Is that just the towing package or is there more to it?


Switz,

Great info. Thank you. This payload thing is a challenge for those of use trying to stay with a gas engine that gets reasonable mileage. It is very helpful to read the real tongue weight of your airstream when equipped for camping as we will need our new tow vehicle prior to the new camper.

Does anyone know if there is a thread where people have submitted their actual weights? That would make a great sticky.

[JaceBeck]

I hate to rain on the parade, but I think there is a large gap between what is possible and what is prudent. Weight ratings are put in place by the manufacturers of both trailers and tow vehicles for a variety of sound engineering reasons including, and importantly, legal liability. Since I am not an automotive engineer, I cannot argue with their rationale, but even a lay person can readily assess the legal liability situation.
So let's assume your vehicle is functionally effective at towing the larger trailer, but you have surpassed the towing weight rating of the tow vehicle and you subsequently are in an accident with a third party. Personal injury and property damage result...to you and the other party. Regardless of fault, you have compromised your position, whether you are plaintiff or defendant, when the attorney's investigators reveal that you were towing a trailer beyond the stated capacity of the tow vehicle. If you are comfortable with the foregoing scenario, putting yourself in a position of weakness through contributory negligence or practically defenseless if the occurrence is your fault, be certain you have a lot of primary and umbrella insurance as you will need it.



If the question is solely regarding length and the combined weight remains well under the tow vehicle rating, then I like a long wheelbase tow vehicle for the stability it affords.

[slowmover]

If you are in an accident the only citation youll likely receive is for failure to control the vehicle. Weight does not enter into it if one has not exceeded axle/tire ratings and if some agency were to expend the funds to investigate to that level (incredibly unlikely and nearly impossible given what happens to TT's in a bad accident).

Commerical use of private vehicles, usually pickup trucks, follows that law. And that is the FAWR and RAWR plus adequate tires. That's it.

GVWR, "tow ratings" and the rest are about what a private party is comfortable in recommending.

Someone who is worried over safety and liability would be a great deal more concerned over braking/steering capacity.

"Weight" is an argument designed to steer everyone to pickups . . a very high profit vehicle. But with the worst steering, braking and resistance to rollover.

Let's try some common sense: Avoid the accident in the first place.

.

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by JaceBeck

I hate to rain on the parade, but I think there is a large gap between what is possible and what is prudent. Weight ratings are put in place by the manufacturers of both trailers and tow vehicles for a variety of sound engineering reasons including, and importantly, legal liability. Since I am not an automotive engineer, I cannot argue with their rationale, but even a lay person can readily assess the legal liability situation.
So let's assume your vehicle is functionally effective at towing the larger trailer, but you have surpassed the towing weight rating of the tow vehicle and you subsequently are in an accident with a third party. Personal injury and property damage result...to you and the other party. Regardless of fault, you have compromised your position, whether you are plaintiff or defendant, when the attorney's investigators reveal that you were towing a trailer beyond the stated capacity of the tow vehicle. If you are comfortable with the foregoing scenario, putting yourself in a position of weakness through contributory negligence or practically defenseless if the occurrence is your fault, be certain you have a lot of primary and umbrella insurance as you will need it.
If the question is solely regarding length and the combined weight remains well under the tow vehicle rating, then I like a long wheelbase tow vehicle for the stability it affords.

Legal opinions offer nothing to towing discussions except to hijack them, yet most towing discussions receive them. When asked to substantiate the personal warning about a private party towing his recreational vehicle being cited or held legally responsible for the warnings stated, the poster is never able to do it. Because there is nothing to it.

I'm with slowmover on this. Better to keep the discussion towards a safe, dependable combination capable of meeting the particular individual's needs. The answer is not always in the charts. Common sense goes a long way.

doug k

[SteveH]

Slowmover, I won't argue your points because mostly they are true.

However, there are some major issues with staying within axle weight ratings towing larger Airstreams with smaller vehicles, and I know because I have recently researched the topic in an effort to go to a smaller tow vehicle.

The fact is most all of the smaller (1/2 ton trucks, and therefore all lesser vehicles) will have the rear axle overloaded as we load and use the trailer and truck.

The problem with overloading, or even getting to the point of being close to overloading, is not just one of exceeding some manufacturer's ratings, but when a vehicle is loaded to the point of max and beyond, handling problems increase.

An overloaded vehicle will not stop, turn, accelerate, or resist sway as well as when it is not overloaded. You of all people should know and understand this.

I'm frequently asked if I think such-and-such vehicle will pull a certain trailer, and my answer is, "yes it will pull it, but you probably won't enjoy it, or do it very long." I'm sure you are aware of threads where I have posted pictures of accidents that were at least contributed to by a less than ideal tow vehicle.

[switz]

Old saying:
If common sense was common, why don't more folks have some?

[slowmover]

As one loads and uses it has little to do with the choice of TV. It is instantly changeable. From that point one may as well buy a Class 5 and be done with it.

I agree that poor TV selection is secondary or tertiary cause for accidents. Inability to get out of it's own way literally means there is neither time nor distance available. There is NOT safety in this direction if by safety we mean risk minimization.

I recently read a post by another contributor who, on a 2,500-mile trip had two panic stops/swerves. If I drove like that (I'm a professional) I'd know there was something wrong with me, not the rig. I cover that many miles in a week and maybe have to nail the brakes in that way a few times per year. If that.

Degrading the performance of the vehicle in re stopping or steering is the dead wrong way to go. Payload of the TV is an enormous compromise.
The size of the TV is not related to safer operation (once past 120" of wheelbase or 4k in weight), it is the opposite once past the design quality and some electronic doodads that may add to vehicle stability or braking distance.

So, back to experience. These rigs are a compromise. And limited in what they can do. No matter the TV. That this TT type is the best on the road was the important decision. Those who want "more" also ought to limit their travel speed to under 60-mph. There is no time when there is no time . . it is already too late.

That they don't (and won't) says more than needs to be said about the intelligence of believing that a pickup is the best all-around choice.

The TW can be spread across three points. Getting FALR is the first step. Not the last.

.

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by RivetNV

We are considering moving from our 20'FB Safari to a larger and as yet indeterminate size. I have read a lot of posts for and against going to trailer sizes longer than 25' and towing with a regular full size SUV such as Expedition or Suburban (1500), or 1/2 ton truck such as F150 or Tundra.

For those that have successfully towed the longer airstreams with these vehicles I would like to hear the details such as upgraded tires, which WD hitch (Was there a learning curve in your getting the set-up dialed in?), upgraded suspension, upgraded brakes, or even if you just left everything stock. I am hoping for the opportunity for the rest of us to learn from your success. Also, if you towed in the mountains, how was that experience? If you didn't, please mention that.

I'm hoping to get a sense of the practical (and safe) limits of these types of vehicles based on others successes.

I towed a camper for the first time around 1969-70, so I have a little experience. I towed my three different 30' Airstreams many thousands of miles safely with a 1/2 ton truck, for more than 15 years without any problems. Then I had a serious wreck. After that, I look back at what I did and consider myself lucky to have gotten by that long without any problems.

You can tow a longer heavier trailer with a 1/2 ton, and you may get by your whole lifetime without any problem, but maybe not. You can tow the same long heavy trailer with a larger heavier truck, and you may get by your whole lifetime with out any problem, but maybe not.

You can have a serious wreck with either truck, that is the risk we take every time we hook up our trailers.

My opinion is that we should make the safest choice of the equipment we use.

I suggest you consider these issues when making your tow vehicle choices:

1. You probably do not personally know any of us on this forum who are offering you advice. Should you trust us? Some people have very strong opinions base on their personal experiences, most likely we all do. A strong opinion is not automatically correct. A large number of rivets beside our names does not mean we are more qualified than another person with fewer rivets. It only means that they have posted more frequently. You must educate yourself and weigh what your learn, since you will have to live with your choices.
2. A 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, or 1 ton will pull any Airstream if they have similar motors and gear ratios. Is pulling capability the primary reason to choose a tow vehicle?
3. Compare the gross weight of the tow vehicle and add the gross weight of the trailer to the tow vehicle's tow capacity rating.
4. Compare the weight of all things inside the truck and the additional weight of the trailer tongue to the tow vehicle's load carrying capacity.
5. Which vehicle has larger heavier brakes, heavier or lighter tow vehicle?
6. Which vehicle has the best traction, heavier or lighter tow vehicle, especially when conditions are not good?

edit:
To answer your question about the mountain towing: Yes I tow in the Appalachian mountains often. The several Chevy 1/2 tons with 4 speed automatic strained and heated going uphill, even though they had the factory installed tow package, and sometimes the brakes would overheated on long downhill grades. The Chevy 1/2 ton with the six speed was great, no problems up or down. The 3/4 ton with a six speed that I have now does great going up or down, but uses about 10% more fuel.

[slowmover]

Which TV has the best brakes is always a good question. It is rarely (probably not ever) a HD pickup. The penalties of a truck outweigh the advantage . . and that is TV payload alone. A pickup is the likely cause of a loss-of-control accident where all else is the same with this TT type.

Weight games are a red herring. An easily solved problem. And NOT to the center of what constitutes what may be the best TV.

FWIW I've been doing this since 1973. Third generation with this trailer type.

Agreed that there is but one expert around. And that is Andrew_T (Andrew Thomson of CAN AM RV) whose dealership has set up in excess of 10,000 tow rigs.

What works and why rewards those who read his threads, posts, and online articles. I understand the seminars on behalf of A/S he conducts go into this in depth. It is no different, in main, than what was recommended 40+ years ago, but with greater detail and vehicle/TT specific recommendations.


.

[m.hony]

We tow our 30' Classic with a Tundra. Original tires. Equal-I-zer 4 point hitch. Works great.

[JFScheck]

Originally Posted by slowmover

Agreed that there is but one expert around. And that is Andrew_T (Andrew Thomson of CAN AM RV) whose dealership has set up in excess of 10,000 tow rigs.

And the question I would like to hear answered is how does Andy overcome the max payload limitations of these vehicles?

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by JFScheck

And the question I would like to hear answered is how does Andy overcome the max payload limitations of these vehicles?

Well, I think it's plain to see he does not "overcome the max payload limitations", he simply ignores them.

[aireseneca]

When searching for potential matches I found this site:
New and Used Car Listings, Car Reviews and Research Guides - AOL Autos
which I found valuable because you can specify any sort of vehicle class, then add towing capacity and compare to MPG all on the same page. Excellent search tool!

[m.hony]

I have never seen a scenario where I couldn't get the 30 into a camping spot. A 40 might be a little hard to fit...it is really a moot point because they ain't never and they won't never.

[Gene]

A lot to cover.

I think Andy T strengthens the tow vehicles—either the unibody or the truck frame. I don't think he ignores weight issues.

Liability is something to think about, but not necessarily to worry about. Cops rarely have the resources or interest to calculate all the factors concerning weight, hitches, etc., that we worry about. In a serious accident with injuries, a lawyer may investigate all this and find out something. There has to be a chance of a big recovery—brain injuries, amputations, facial injury of a woman, etc. Otherwise it doesn't pay. But being cross examined about this could uncover something ("How much did the truck and contents weigh?" A: "I'm not sure". Did you weigh it at a CAT scale?" A: What is a CAT scale?"). While unlikely, it is possible this will come up.

'mover's discussion of panic stops is interesting. In roughly 45,000 miles of towing, I have had one or two. One I know was because I wasn't paying enough attention—a good lesson. If there were another, I only can remember that I might have had another one. Besides being bad for the rotors and tires, panic stops often indicate not paying attention. The hardest place to drive in on a busy urban expressway where traffic goes from moving fast to stop and go very quickly, and leaving the proper space between you and the guy in front is difficult because someone cuts in front of you and fills the space (one could argue that you have an obligation to crush their car because they asked for it, but you do have to stick around, fill out papers and get your truck fixed, so enforcing a moral imperative is not a good idea). This is the situation I most worry about.

If you want to go large, you don't have to buy diesel. Today's gas engines are very powerful. If you want to keep a truck for more than 200,000 miles (roughly), diesel may make sense.

Tundra payload (like most truck lines) varies considerably depending how fancy the truck is, cab size and length. There have been people who bought what they thought were trucks with sufficient payload and found out otherwise when they got it home; this gets expensive when you have to immediately change to another truck. Check literature carefully and when you see the truck, the payload should be listed on a plate on the driver's door opening below the B pillar. Put the payload in the sales contract as a condition of accepting the truck. Also, dealer or aftermarket installed options (running boards, toppers, etc.) will subtract from payload. Tow packages change from year to year. It appears that some Tundras did not include tow mirrors with the tow package according to some posts on other threads, but I'm not sure those people really understood what they bought. On our 2007 Tundra the tow package did include everything you'd expect including big battery, tow mirrors, big alternator, etc. The Tundra also has very big standard brake rotors for stopping and never overheats, even on Colorado passes.

And, conventional wisdom says the truck must be weight as much or more than the trailer plus a short wheelbase tow vehicle is dangerous. CW = unproved assertion that looks good until you start thinking about it. CW and "common sense" are the same. Tractor trailers can weigh as much as 40 tons and you know the tractor isn't 20 of them. And the trailer is much longer than the tractor. This question needs objective testing to find out what the truth is.

Now I can ignore this thread for another week.

Gene

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by Gene

A lot to cover.

I think Andy T strengthens the tow vehicles—either the unibody or the truck frame. I don't think he ignores weight issues.


Gene

Gene,

There are many more things that go into the calculation of a vehicle's safe weight carrying capacity than the frame or hitch. There are power trains, cooling systems, frames, axles and all their components, suspensions and all their components, brakes, wheels, tires, and on and on.

Andy T has stated that manufacturer's weight and towing capacities are arbitrary chosen and therefore meaningless.

I submit that vehicle manufacturers know infinitely more about their product's capabilities than an RV Salesman.

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by SteveH

Andy T has stated that manufacturer's weight and towing capacities are arbitrary chosen and therefore meaningless.

I submit that vehicle manufacturers know infinitely more about their product's capabilities than an RV Salesman.

I believe it is obvious Andy T takes the whole combination (as set up by him) very seriously. That explains his highly respectable safety record. Many folks I have talk to including myself go to him because of their attention to detail and the safety priority.

[Moflash]

A axle has a breaking point,a frame has a breaking point,a leaf spring has a breaking point...........Attachment bolts have a breaking point.Brakes can only stop a certain amount of weight safety. The people that design and engineer them test them and post the maximum load ratings for safety purposes.Whether you choose to acknowledge this fact or ignore it that is up to you.
I see very few mini vans or short wheelbase 1/2 ton pickups substituting for a Kenworth or Peterbuilt's as I travel the interstates.And by the way a semi tractor has a massive frame huge brakes and eight rear tires and was designed and tested to pull that large trailer.They are of fifth wheel design for a reason.
In all the rambling about Andy from a few people here,I have not seen any one of them post what was actually done to their vehicle to in some cases triple the payload of their vehicle.I doubt that they even know what he did.

I am just glad Andy does not modify aircraft or bridges...............

If you are going buy a vehicle to pull a Airstream.Just make sure it is designed and tested to do the job without compromising your or my safety.