Towing and Hauling

[philipsinewe]

Originally Posted by cwf

Here ya go.. in Texas...
http://dps.texas.gov/schoolbus/1998specs/1998specs2.pdf

Thanks. I did not read every page, but this is a school bus regulation.

[philipsinewe]

Originally Posted by AWCHIEF

To back up all these legal claims can anyone site actual case law where a judge has found that if a privately owned travel trailer owner overloaded said travel trailer or tow vehicle and was involved in an accident or had a warrenty claim and was found quilty or at fault of any crimes or that warrenty was voided?

Quoting Internet discussions or commercial vehicle statues does not count.

Agree completely. These discussions are fascinating, particularly when you consider this. The vehicle manufacturer, has complete control over what "number" they place on a vehicle (no "law" regulates how they determine tow capacity). And in nearly every case, they have no real logic behind how they came to that conclusion, other than the ONLY real reason, they would prefer that you buy a $60,000.00 vehicle over a $30,000.00 vehicle, plain and simple.

Then, all of us run around and say its the law. So, the vehicle manufacturer, by proxy (probably not the correct use of that word) becomes the regulating agency, that self determines dollar value for a vehicle. Its the perfect plan really.

That of course is only my internet opinion.

[Rocinante]

We're towing our Intl Signature 27fb with a Ram1500 gasser maxed out for towing. It's been absolutely great across the country, but if our trailer had more tongue weight or we tossed another 750+ pounds in the bed, we'd want a 2500 with a nice big payload capacity.

[andreasduess]

The "legal" docs quoted above are for....school busses. Check the link.

Having said that, with a Harley I too would go 250 minimal. Its just too heavy.

[bobzdar]

2015 Ford F-150 | View Payload Specifications | Ford.com

Any of the cab sizes can be configured for ~3000lbs payload in 4x2 or 2700lbs in 4x4 with heavy duty payload package. I would opt for the v8 over the Ecoboost. Any of those 2700-3000lbs models should be fine even with the Harley. Figure 770lbs for the Harley and you still have ~2000lbs of payload even in a 4x4.

Tow rating is over 10klbs on any of the ecoboost or v8 models.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by philipsinewe

...The vehicle manufacturer, has complete control over what "number" they place on a vehicle (no "law" regulates how they determine tow capacity). And in nearly every case, they have no real logic behind how they came to that conclusion, other than the ONLY real reason, they would prefer that you buy a $60,000.00 vehicle over a $30,000.00 vehicle, plain and simple.

There is now a towing standard called J2807 which defines a set of standardized tests for deciding the tow rating of vehicles. The car manufacturers cannot just slap a random number on a vehicle anymore.

Unfortunately, the theory that car manufacturers intentionally down rate certain type of vehicles to push customers to high profit margin trucks does not fly, as European manufacturers are NOT in the truck market in North America, yet they rate their sedans/minivans similar to domestic brands. This seems more related to capability not profit.

Also, there are RV guidelines in every state/province. Many of them state the same things as the school bus guideline mentions ("do not exceed the payload", "Do not exceed the tow rating", ...). Google would be your friend here.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by bobzdar

2015 Ford F-150 | View Payload Specifications | Ford.com

Any of the cab sizes can be configured for ~3000lbs payload in 4x2 or 2700lbs in 4x4 with heavy duty payload package. I would opt for the v8 over the Ecoboost. Any of those 2700-3000lbs models should be fine even with the Harley. Figure 770lbs for the Harley and you still have ~2000lbs of payload even in a 4x4.

Tow rating is over 10klbs on any of the ecoboost or v8 models.

Be careful though, those figures are typically "maximum" and reflect low trim levels (like work trucks). The true capacity shrinks pretty dramatically as you add the realistic creature comforts most of us wind up with.

Some careful math is needed here, between actual payload, AS loaded TW, actual Harley weight, passengers, and any other stuff desired in the truck.

I still think, a 150/1500 is borderline, at best.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by rostam

There is now a towing standard called J2807 which defines a set of standardized tests for deciding the tow rating of vehicles. The car manufacturers cannot just slap a random number on a vehicle anymore.

Well, they don't have to follow the SAE standard for a start. And if they do, they don't have to quote the maximum, just what they tested to.

But this is all a distraction. The OP asked about F150 and F250 given his situation, which includes a Harley in the bed. Given that either of the above trucks can be configured for the tow rating required, with room to spare, why does it matter?

Back to the payload question, you can get an F150 with sufficient payload, but maybe not the trim level or cab configuration you might want. If you want an XLT regular cab with an 8 foot box, doesn't look like a problem.

And given that weights (axle, tire, GVWR) are a legal issue (federal standards, state and provincial rules, etc) then talking about payload makes sense. Talking about school buses and J2807,not so much.

Jeff

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Be careful though, those figures are typically "maximum" and reflect low trim levels (like work trucks). The true capacity shrinks pretty dramatically as you add the realistic creature comforts most of us wind up with.

Some careful math is needed here, between actual payload, AS loaded TW, actual Harley weight, passengers, and any other stuff desired in the truck.

I still think, a 150/1500 is borderline, at best.

If a new 150 is borderline, then any 3/4 ton over 5 years old would be borderline as well. The "1/2" tons now have more capacity than the 3/4 and even one tons of yore. A 2010 F250 tops out at 3250lbs of payload, which is less than the new f150 tops out at.

Let's say you add 700lbs worth of options, you're still at 2000lbs of payload in even the super crew 4x4. 770lbs of harley and 700lbs of tongue weight and you still have 500lbs of payload left.

I wouldn't get any less than an extended cab, regular cabs are no fun on long trips as they have no room for anything else in the cab. You'll be scrounging in the bed or trailer at any stop for stuff.

[Adam Geuss]

Originally Posted by FishinHatteras

Don't think you will find them "posted" anywhere, but if you do get into an accident, any good lawyer is going to have a field day with your overloaded rig. And I'm not so sure your insurance company is going to stand behind you if it can be proven that your vehicle was in excess of its rated abilities. It's pretty simple: If you play with math, you WILL lose.
I would never want to exceed 85% of my tow vehicles capabilities. Your opinion may vary.
Not tryiing to be a smartalec in any way. And please don't feel I am insulting your intelligence. I am not!
I just prefer to stay on the safe side of the equation. Some on here don't mind pushing their towing limits further than 85%. Not my cup of tea.
Gavin

Have to agree here. In Western Europe and in the UK there are well established limits on the maximum weight of the combination of vehicles (3.5 tons in most of Europe). The second requirement is that the tow vehicle must weigh at least 15% more than the trailer it is towing. This is strictly enforced. Violation carries a hefty price. Another rule in these environments is the limit one has on their driving licenses. Forget driving anything heavier than 3.5 tons without a special license. Germany allows a slightly higher range . This applies to all types of vehicles. All. No regular license troop driving a 32' RV without the equivalent of an advanced commercial license. Getting these licenses costs a bundle and take lots of time. Failure the first two attempts is common.

Then there is the freedoms we find in the US. It is different here. Folks have more opportunity to enjoy RVing/trailering with less government imposed restrictions. Nonetheless and Influenced by our towing/RV experiences living in Europe for 20+ years we always abide by the standards we became accustomed to there. They make sense and certainly enhance safety. Our convictions are our own however and we are completely open minded where other opinions are concerned. Different strokes etc.. Be safety conscious first as in the end it is always better.

[dznf0g]

Here's a quick and dirty of how "stuff" adds up though, for me specifically (I'd wager others are similar....it creeps up on you) (and I challenge you to look at actual payload stickers of the trucks people actually use around here, regardless of mfr):

Payload includes full of fuel and fluids and driver at 175#s:

"excess human weight" passenger 230
Receiver weight (inc HAHA and AS TW) 1150
Yamaha scooter 205
inflatable boat 102
boat gear (jackets, lights, etc) 25
boat tank and gas 55
10hp boat motor 65
(2) honda gennies, cases locks, super gen tent etc 150
portable solar panel 30
scooter ramps 30
tools, emergency gear, winch, compressor, etc 50
other stuff that just gets thrown in
(motorcycle straps, locks, front wheel chock, travel bag
blah, blah, blah 100
________

2192 pounds!

It adds up. Even with the F150 "max payload", unless it's a work truck (XLT?) you're getting close, based on actual door jamb stickers posted around here.

EDIT: OOPS, I forgot about the assist steps, bed liner and tonneau cover....that's another 150 - 200lbs.

EDIT AGAIN: stinger and Rocktamers - 90 - 100lbs.

[andreasduess]

Originally Posted by rostam

Unfortunately, the theory that car manufacturers intentionally down rate certain type of vehicles to push customers to high profit margin trucks does not fly, as European manufacturers are NOT in the truck market in North America, yet they rate their sedans/minivans similar to domestic brands. This seems more related to capability not profit.

We've had frequent conversations about the difference in towing ratings separating US from European cars, with the European vehicle almost always rated, at times considerably, higher. This seems especially true for station wagons and SUVs.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

We've had frequent conversations about the difference in towing ratings separating US from European cars, with the European vehicle almost always rated, at times considerably, higher. This seems especially true for station wagons and SUVs.

Again, this is distraction, but since you brought it up

The Euro trailers have a different design, in that the axles are more forward, hence they have significantly less tongue weight. Its completely normal for a 28 ft Euro trailer to have a 300# tongue weight. A North American equivalent trailer would have a 1000# tongue weight, which would overload most sedans/minivans and exceed their hitch ratings. The Euro trailers are also narrower (less wind resistance) , the towing speed limit is lower in Europe, and they don't have the blazing heat of the Southwest or the Rockies in Europe. All these factors could justify a slightly higher tow rating for some vehicles in Europe.

[Silverfan]

Even more info. This is all helpful and I think I understand payload vs towing or the combo. I didn't know that it could lead to so many tangents.
Hypothetically, what I the Harley made it into the trailer vs being in the bed. That adds some tongue weight, but not as much as being in the bed. So, eating up less payload.
One more (I'm sure I'll have more.) Question. Would using a weight distribution hitch help the cause of the F150? In the original scenario, Harley in the bed.

[jcl]

In the above scenarios, F150 or F250, you use a weight distributing hitch.

[xrvr]

Think about how hard it is to load a large mc into a truck bed. At least a two person job and nothing I would do each day. Also consider where to store the ramps and their weight. Unless you are planning to transport the mc to a base location and stay there for a length if time, it is a major hassle to load and unload and in my opinion not worth the effort. Drop the bike one time either loading or unloading and the fun gives away. We used to carry two two hundred pound Vespas occasionally and decided it wasn't worth the work. Also with th mc in the bed you have pretty much eliminated all the room for anything else. With the ramps in ther, anything else might have to be put against the mc to fit. Not very good for the bike. I have two scratched Vespas to prove that. Just my thoughts. Hope they help. Peace,Jim.

[xrvr]

An additional thought. If you have never loaded a full sized mc into a truck, please try it before making your decision. Borrow someone's truck if you have to. Load the bike tie it down, stow the ramps. Then reverse. Peace,jim

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Here's a quick and dirty of how "stuff" adds up though, for me specifically (I'd wager others are similar....it creeps up on you)
Payload includes full of fuel and fluids and driver at 175#s:

"excess human weight" passenger 230
Receiver weight (inc HAHA and AS TW) 1150
Yamaha scooter 205
inflatable boat 102
boat gear (jackets, lights, etc) 25
boat tank and gas 55
10hp boat motor 65
(2) honda gennies, cases locks, super gen tent etc 150
portable solar panel 30
scooter ramps 30
tools, emergency gear, winch, compressor, etc 50
other stuff that just gets thrown in
(motorcycle straps, locks, front wheel chock, travel bag
blah, blah, blah 100
________

2192 pounds! It adds up.

No doubt one can carry around a truck load of stuff but everyone doesn't.

With the 23' hooked up and on the weigh scale our payload reading for the car is 950lbs. That number is road read for travel including driver and passenger.

Note we have stuff too but bikes etc are carried in the 23. Works well for us.

[dznf0g]

No question,, Ruler, but OP states "Harley". That beckons other "stuff" comes along.
First, is it really 700#s? He doesn't say what model, but 700#s seems light.
Ramps?
Wheel fixture hold down device?
Accessories, leathers, helmets. stuff in MC trunks?

Other camping gear loaded in truck? He also states a 3/4 time lifestyle. That beckons weight gain as well.

My ONLY point, is to demonstrate the sneaky behavior of TV weight gain.
Borrow a truck, load it and scale it, is the only accurate answer here.

[gmw photos]

I'm going to be chastised I'm sure by the usual crowd, but I'll say this anyway. If I were going to full time with a 30' in tow, and a Harley in the bed of the truck, I would use a F350, dually. Yep....the classic answer "one ton dually".

Personally if I were carrying my bike in the bed of the truck, I would put one of the extra high bed toppers on, would use a set of the very wide ramps to load, and honestly, I would simply install a winch at the the front of the bed to safely winch the bike in and out. This makes it a safe and easy one person operation.

OP, you are going to be shocked at what your total payload is going to be for a full time lifestyle with all normal needs plus the added weight of the bike and the gear required to support it ( tools, riding gear, etc ).
My F350 dually has a payload capacity of 4850 pounds. I'll bet you'd use a fair chunk of that, and of course it's always a good idea to have "reserve" capacity for various reasons.