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Old 08-15-2012, 10:26 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by REDNAX
TT's (all trailers) are in a grey area, GC. Axle rating and tire rating are the only things with teeth in them (for commercial haulers). Private vehicles aren't covered. And "manufacturer ratings" aren't going to hold up. After all, if state inspections -- ostensibly for safety -- have next to no meaning in this aspect of liability, then what the car builder says is going to be even farther back down the line.

Toyota won't care . . ask ones insurance agent instead (as they would be handling any liability after all).

Guidelines are one thing. Understanding how they work is another. Getting the "right" TV may take time (and the use of brains rather than emotions).

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Red, can you elaborate on this statement. I may just be dense, but I'm not sure that I understand exactly what you are saying, and it seems really important.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:58 AM   #30
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There are discussions elsewhere on this. Here's my non-caffeinated attempt:

If you mean the final block of phrases, then another approach is that,

most accidents involving towed vehicles are understood to be the loss of steering control. Often a result of overcorrection by the driver. Therefore much of the purpose of correct hitch rigging is in maintaining the steering "feel" of the TV as if it were solo (inputs and outcomes similar in change of direction), and best braking by both vehicles.

Second is that in "distributing" the weight of the TT tongue out to the front axle of the tow vehicle (to restore unhitched weight value) and to the TT axles that the lever arm represented by the length from the hitch ball to the trailer axle center has its potentially very heavy motions "spread out" over both vehicles instead of being concentrated at one small point (the hitch ball) and upsetting the vehicle combination from the center. The TW may only be 800-lbs at rest (static). It may be 8,000-lbs hitting repeatedly like a hammer under adverse conditions (dynamic; to show a broad range).


Proper hitch rigging spreads the load more evenly across all axles of both vehicles. Depending on vehicle type is how a formula may be used to the best effect (differently for cars vs pickup trucks to some extent).

A bit more deeply ("how they work") is that the so-called standard applies to the crude and the sophisticated equally (makes no distinction) when, in fact, those distinctions are central to achieving best road performance. The distinctions involve vehicle design & construction: low center of gravity, independent suspension, aerodynamic shape (TT) and sophisticated anti-roll (TV).

IOW, the size, the weight, and the powertrain of the TV is not front and center when all potential TV candidates are considered.

The underlying premise of J2807 is to steer folks to a limited range of potential TV's based on testing designed to eliminate many worthwhile vehicles. It does not proceed from the premise of including all vehicles sold and then arranging them in graded steps as those steps would involve consideration of trailer types, then by trailer design.

An open construction trailer with a one-foot high load off the bed where the total is 13,000-lbs is envisioned by J2807 and the changes in recommendation for a WDH (plus antisway). It does not take into account travel trailers and wind loads for example.

Manufacturer recommendations have the same force as your next door neighbors. Using a group of captive engineers (SAE) to bolster the argument (the automakers wish to avoid liability) is their way of shutting that door. A good thing for them. But not to the point of how to best arrange any TV-TT combination.

Liability means more, in this context, about good faith. The law does not address the specifics. It will come down to fault upon the driver if at all possible (who owns insurance companies also owns the production of the vehicles, and elects judges and legislators; do not stand in the way of profit. The State has it's own interests here as well) and the bickering wll be about how much fault accrues to one party over another. Let's not mix money and moral judgments. Folks have been towing TT's for decades, and there is experience to guide one in setting up the best performance. None of it absolves the driver from mistakes made, but, I would say, hopefully avoids the mistake consequences when the best or at least better choices are made at the outset (vehicle types, designs, construction and lash up).

.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:17 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by badgerfamily View Post
Hello all. I've been following the thread and have some questions. I have a 2008 Sequoia 5.7L V8 with tow pkg. the manual says I can tow up to 9100 lbs with a 16000 lb max combined TV + TT. We are looking at a 2005 Safari Bunkhouse 30ft with a dry wt of 6215 and GVWR of 8400. Does anyone tow a 30ft AS with a Sequoia? Can I make it through the mountains safely? It's my first TT purchase and want to be sure my SUV can do the job for a family of 7.

Called our Toyota dealer yesterday and they said the SAE has changed the towing standards this year and that our Sequoia can now only tow up to 6400 lbs. that' a significant drop. What is Airstream saying? What do you say? I just need to know what I can safely tow cross country or do I need to wait and get a 3/4 ton SUV.
Not sure what the deal was talking about? Your Sequoia can tow 9100 lbs just like mine. Thats what it says in the book and on the SUV. The new Rating standard it 7300 lb for the Sequoia not 6400 lb that comes of the toyota web site.

The guy you talked to didn't now what he was talking about. The new GCWR is 13,600 lbs So you still have 2000 lbs of stuff to carry before you even hit the limit of the new Sequoia rating. You are fine to tow it. Just get a good WD and get it set up RIGHT!!!! this is the most important thing..
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:23 AM   #32
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Whether the SAE standards or manufacturers' recommendations are valid may not matter when an insurance company says you towed too much weight or you are in a lawsuit over injuries to someone because of an accident.

The SAE standards and manufacturers' recommendations sound valid and could be used against you. You can challenge the standards and recommendations and take the time to do that, perhaps hiring experts of your own.

It has often been said life is not fair; this may be another example of it.

The SAE standards are pretty easy to find for Toyotas (and probably other brands) through the use of Google. Our particular model was lowered 500 lbs. as to towing ability and we are still well below that number.

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Old 08-16-2012, 10:28 AM   #33
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It looks like Toyota is the only company who is going to abide by the new standards at this time.
GM, Ford continue to squabble over pickup towing standards
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:28 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
Whether the SAE standards or manufacturers' recommendations are valid may not matter when an insurance company says you towed too much weight or you are in a lawsuit over injuries to someone because of an accident.

The SAE standards and manufacturers' recommendations sound valid and could be used against you. You can challenge the standards and recommendations and take the time to do that, perhaps hiring experts of your own.

It has often been said life is not fair; this may be another example of it.

The SAE standards are pretty easy to find for Toyotas (and probably other brands) through the use of Google. Our particular model was lowered 500 lbs. as to towing ability and we are still well below that number.

Gene
There is nothing on their web site about older models having there tow rating changed (that I could find), and until they send me something in the mail I will go by what is on my SUV and in my book. Some guy on the phone means nothing. It better be in writing and I better have to sign for it, or I never got it.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:34 AM   #35
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I just looked up the online Owners manual for my 2008 on the toyota web site. Still post my 9100 lbs for my Sequoia.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:35 AM   #36
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This towing standard/legal issue comes up frequently in these discussions. Always opinions one way or the other. Can anyone cite an actual case? Not "my brother-in-law knew a guy who . . ." If true seems like there would be plenty of examples of people losing their shirts, but haven't heard of any.

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Old 08-16-2012, 12:08 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDNAX View Post
So far as performance is concerned, the high end turbodiesel SUV MERCEDES, & PORSCHE offerings cannot be beaten. Then, the AUDI, VW and others as vehicles for comparison from the top down.

Really, if one is not fulltiming carrying 2,000-lbs of gear appropriate to a truck bed (under a topper or tonneau) then a decent range of vehicles is possible. Trucks have their place, but their choice is more herd behavior than rational choice.
To each their own ... based upon need, ability to pay, and perceived value. I would point out that you will have a hard time finding a dealer / repair facility / parts for many of the makes referenced above here in rural states such as Montana. How do you put a value on lost time / stress if a breakdown occurs hundreds of miles from qualified service? Another consideration for us is the likelihood of encountering another animal that wants your share of the roadway ... motorcycles don't fare well in such an exchange ... and you work your way up the line of heavier duty vehicles until you are safe / comfortable.

There are many TV considerations that shouldn't be over-simplified on the forum. What works for some shouldn't be generalized for all ... lighter weight / high spec TV for some ... heavier duty / spec for others. Opinions vary ...
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:10 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
This towing standard/legal issue comes up frequently in these discussions. Always opinions one way or the other. Can anyone cite an actual case? Not "my brother-in-law knew a guy who . . ." If true seems like there would be plenty of examples of people losing their shirts, but haven't heard of any.

doug k
Lawsuits over vehicle accidents are almost always settled out of court and not reported anywhere because of confidentiality agreements. People having problems with their insurance carrier because of a claim denied are not going to be reported anywhere either unless it gets noticed by a reporter and the reporter does a story on it. Maybe complaints to insurance commissions could be tracked, but state commissions generally are underfunded and often work for the insurers more than the insured.

What I do know is that if I were an insurance company, it is easy to deny a claim based on towing an overweight vehicle and get away with it. They probably don't do it unless there is a fairly good sized claim, but computers allow them to go through stuff quickly and easily. If I were asserting a legal claim for a client injured by someone towing, I'd certainly look into the weight issue as well as hitching, tires, and anything else I could.

It has been posted no one has ever made a claim against Andrew T and his Ontario shop. Good. Have they ever made claims in any state or province against his customers? I don't know if we'll ever know.

So, a world with infinite information would be good, but until then, we have to rely on what we can find out and assess it's validity.

Gene
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:59 PM   #39
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My thanks to all for the great advice. Lot of choices to make and I realize they are mind to make. Based on both threads that i stareted I have decided to keep my Yukon at least thru our trip to Cape Cod which is at the end of September but in the meantime I will begin to look at 3/4 ton trucks. I doubt if I will buy diesel as the price differential does not seem to be justified especially with gas and diesel prices on the rise. Also because it appears that gas performs almost as well. I also know that I will need to buy a new tow vehicle at some point in the future. The question is how long should I wait with 123 k on the Yukon?

I also looked at a hitch both Hensley and PP3. I currently have the reese WD hitch with sway control but again have made no decision. I willprobably tow with this hitch to the
cape and then make a decision whether or not to go to a PP# or hensley.

Any thoughts or should I just go out and buy them for my 68th
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:39 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by mefly2 View Post
To each their own ... based upon need, ability to pay, and perceived value. I would point out that you will have a hard time finding a dealer / repair facility / parts for many of the makes referenced above here in rural states such as Montana. How do you put a value on lost time / stress if a breakdown occurs hundreds of miles from qualified service? Another consideration for us is the likelihood of encountering another animal that wants your share of the roadway ... motorcycles don't fare well in such an exchange ... and you work your way up the line of heavier duty vehicles until you are safe / comfortable.

There are many TV considerations that shouldn't be over-simplified on the forum. What works for some shouldn't be generalized for all ... lighter weight / high spec TV for some ... heavier duty / spec for others. Opinions vary ...
Knowing the boundaries of what is "best" (via examination) is the point. Not that all of can afford or would want the vehicles cited. Understanding why one is better than another is the key.

One might think the Suburban a "better" TV than the shorter Tahoe . . but not according to CAN AM (who also explains the reasoning).

Etc.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:41 PM   #41
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urnmor, the PP is the updated Jim Hensley licensed design. The improvements make it the worthwhile choice. Alternatively, there are occasionally used H/A hitches at bargain prices.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:48 PM   #42
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What I do know is that if I were an insurance company, it is easy to deny a claim based on towing an overweight vehicle and get away with it. They probably don't do it unless there is a fairly good sized claim, but computers allow them to go through stuff quickly and easily. If I were asserting a legal claim for a client injured by someone towing, I'd certainly look into the weight issue as well as hitching, tires, and anything else I could.


Were it "easy" I'd imagine we'd have heard of it. The dynamics of an accident are hard to take apart. Even more so with a TT rig. While what is said appears a prudent approach on the one hand, on the other if it leads to the use of a rollover prone, poor braking TV based on the arbitrary SAE standard, then the failure, the burden falls even more heavily on the owner.

No matter the rig it ought to be hitched up with "the best". That a pickup truck needs a better hitch in some instances than a so-called "lesser" vehicle ought to be reason enough for pause.

The choice of an A/S is already three steps ahead of the conventional trailer. That, alone, is the best kind of start in trying to spec a TV.

.
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