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Old 09-06-2010, 04:58 PM   #57
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Something you never see mentioned in these discussions are the brakes used on most lighter weight trucks. I invite anyone to compare the brakes on a 1-ton truck to the same truck's half-ton couterpart. Then, think about what happens coming down the side of a mountain if the electric brakes fail. Personally, I prefer the big heavy duty versions.
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Old 09-06-2010, 05:18 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Journalist View Post
Something you never see mentioned in these discussions are the brakes used...
the brake issue gets complicated.

many of the performance or euro cars have massive brakes (rotors/pads) and stiff calipers...

and have VERY short stopping distances, less fade, better heat dissipation and so on...

typically the brakes are matched (sorta) to hp, top speed or other performance parameters...

and the "segment" for which the vehicle is targeted.

so IF one were to compare NEW 1/2 trucks or NEWer euro suvs and sporty sedans to 3/4-1 ton trucks...

the former will have BIGGER brakes relative to total vehicle CURB weight ...

than those supplied on heavy 3/4 or 1 ton trucks...

those same trucks will have LONGER stopping distances because of mass, cog, and tires supplied.
____________

so the ABOVE will be the arguement used by proponents of sporty towing horses.

however and here is the gotcha for the EURO/sporty car proponents...

the brakes supplied on ALL of these vehicles

are EXPECTED to stop whatever the GVWR is, that's the bottom line fed requirement.
_________

for example,

1. a mythical suv with a gvwr of 6000 lbs that weighs 4800 lbs MUST have adequate brakes to stop 6k ....

they might be VERY LARGE and grippy and so on,

but the hubs, wheels (think 5-6 bolts) shocks/springs/subframe may still limit any EXTRA stopping powers...

in other words the REQUIRED extra capacity only need to be able to stop 1200lb MORE than curb weight.

2. a mythical 1 ton truck with a gvwr of 13,000 lbs that has a curb weight of 8000-8,500 lbs...

MUST have brakes sufficient to stop 13,000 lbs, or 4,500-5,000 lbs more than curb weight.

the stopping distances might be longer (definitely will be)

and the tires may not be hi performance stoppers (think m/s, all season, off road) on the trucks...

but all the mechanicals will have the capacity to stop/control 13,000 lbs.

so the SECOND vehicle would be better suited to controlling a trailer SHOULD it's brakes fail...

and those tires that are NOT ultra high performance (on the truck) may actually be a HECK of alot better...

in wet, snow, gravel or other crappy road conditions (and in the rv/state/fed/off road park)...

this is why towing with a convertible is basically limited to fair weather.
_________

at this point the euro/sporty car tow'n camp will claim that the mechanicals on those sporty things are...

MUCH MUCH stronger than the ratings indicate

(some conspiracy by truck makers keeps this under wraps)...

and that the sporty/low profile DESIGN is really better for towing in every way,

but that info is hidden from us (the buyers) too.

it's very hard to dispute a conspiracy theory, especially when it shifts to serve it's theorist.
__________

much depends on the NUTCASE behind the wheel...

and IF they think SWOOP'n and SWERVE'n into other lanes and around stuff WHILE TOWING...

is a good thing.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:18 PM   #59
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2air, I realize that some of the hot rod SUVs have big brakes, but I was comparing half-ton trucks and one-ton trucks of equivalent makes.

For example:
1999 Chevy C3500 dually:

2002 Chevy Tahoe (same as C1500):

Different years I know, but it was the best I could find in a pinch. ***Images blatantly ripped off from various internet sources***
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Old 09-06-2010, 07:09 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Journalist View Post
... I realize that some of the hot rod SUVs have big brakes, but I was comparing half-ton trucks and one-ton trucks of equivalent makes...
right J', and i'm not disagreeing with your observation,

just taking it WHERE the other camp inevitably goes with brake comparisons.

(and thanks for adding the photoz)

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-06-2010, 07:16 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
just taking it WHERE the other camp inevitably goes with brake comparisons.
It wouldn't be airforums if everyone didn't take EVERY thread off into left field would it?
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Old 09-06-2010, 09:12 PM   #62
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ne1 seen the OP?

Yhbt. Yhl. Hand.
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Old 09-07-2010, 12:16 AM   #63
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I wouldn't be so sure about the truck brake hypothesis. I know of no state that allows for heavy trailers (above 2500-lbs) to run without brakes on the roads. Or that truck manufacturers design these brakes to undergo this duty continually. To stop a fully loaded truck (payload maximum), yes, under stated conditions. To stop a trailer as well, I have my doubts. I've seen cooked brakes, ruined hubs, etc, plenty of times. Truck brakes stop trucks, trailer brakes stop trailers.

You've made the statement, so provide (at least) some ad copy or statute which refers to this.

I also see no reason to doubt those who tow "unconventionally" -- and reporting satisfactory experience over tens of thousands of miles -- to be incorrect in their choice of a TV. If it's bad, then where's the proof? I don't frequent their enthusiast sites but I'd imagine something would have filtered over here by now.

As a newcomer to towing, 2Air, your insistence on, say, placing the trailer brake ONLY to the right is outside of common experience of forty years ago. (Or that it is wise).

Or that cars only rated to 5,500-lbs of towing cannot handle an 8,000-lb trailer is not feasible. It was done, it IS done, and when well-sorted it apparently works and works well. As well, better . . fine, have a face-off somewhere.

My parents and grandparents both kept TV's well past 100 (if not 200) thousand miles with no apparent ill effects: deserts, mountains, foreign countries, etc. Those cars featured custom hitches and hitch heads as that was the way it was done. If one ever compares what the OEM's recommended as a pattern to follow back then -- and see what CAN AM often does (in photo's I've seen) -- then there is a similarity that begs why todays hitch receivers (aftermarket sourced) are so poor in comparison. Those trailers were above TV "maximums".

These sort of assertions are about as weighty as believing that body-on-frame is superior to unit-body in a TV. They don't stand up. Same for this new J2807 standard . . even a guy like me can see huge holes to drive through. One can play the numbers game -- as given by manufacturers without third-party verification which either amends that standard or complements it. Unlikely, given the DOT and NHTSA of today. But it does not mean that that standard is either inclusive or comprehensive. Or that it was accurately done (I don't believe it was).

And because hitch retailers, trailer dealers, etc, don't set up cars or minivans or SUV's to tow "outside of stated maximum" -- as stated plenty of times before they have neither the training, the understanding, nor the desire. Doesn't automatically mean it can't be done. Or is a bad idea. Only that a piece of paper may come back at them. Which doesn't say much for us as a society, does it? The corporation gives us the numbers, the government refuses (ignores) to verify, amend or other, and we're supposed to be stuck with it.

The brake argument is weak. All it takes is rear drums out-of-adjustment (95% of trucks 6-mos old and so equipped) to render that meaningless. An argument about a new FORD SD truck with spotty electrical on a downhill descent makes more sense to flog in regards braking or control as it is nowadays so very dependent on computer projections/corrections.

In other words, while fine on paper, it isn't proven. Towing with what is considered only today -- not years ago -- "unconventional" isn't when you want to play the numbers game.

And ANY reading of ANY diesel truck enthusiast site will show an un-ending number of threads about truck owners towing FAR beyond stated maximums. And not just a few thousand pounds, but TEN or more thousand in some instances. Trucks that have also been substantially tuned to produce far more HP/TQ than the manufacturer intended. Etc, etc.

Maybe some of this heavy-handedness can be reserved for those who tow above 70 mph. An old (I mean old) truck driver told me early on that, "Son, up to 70 mph you drive the truck, but past 70 the truck drives you", a handy way of summing up plenty of evidence (insurance compilations and statistics; lectures from safety directors and the rest) that there is a point where a tow rig passes beyond the realm of reasonable in terms of handling & braking. That the drivers attention is FORCED into a narrow cone to find out what's ahead . . and ignores the mirrors as peripheral vision has shrunk so far. Bad habits. For with a tow rig there are plenty of days and roads where "speeding" has nothing to do with the posted limit.

The best hitch, the best trailer, the best skills mean little then, they but delay the inevitable. There will be a day . . (we hope doesn't come).

In the meantime, wanting a better TV than flimsy standards, conventional thinking (memory limited), and piss-poor truck dynamics is reasonable enough. How to do it is the kicker. No one said it will be easy. But it sure ain't re-inventing the wheel, either.

.

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Old 09-08-2010, 12:01 PM   #64
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2009 Touareg TDI (not air suspension) towing a 2010 25FB Flying Cloud w/Propride 3 hitch.
TV squats about 3" in rear when hooked up.
Have towed around 2500 miles.
Last trip (LR to Dallas) heard the straining/long-creaking metal sounds one might hear before a WWII submarine implodes! (Especially when taking-off from a stop)
Are my rear bumper bolts about to shear?
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:38 PM   #65
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IF noises n creaking is the issue, make SURE the pp has been GREASED recently, regularly and often.

see da' pp thread for that stuff

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ide-57179.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octoberpfb View Post
...Are my rear bumper bolts about to shear?
the issue with the vdub is that the RECEIVER connections are not easy to inspect...

and the attachment is less than ideal for a w/d hitch (vdubs official position is NO w/d gear)

see how the receiver is attached and hidden in post #35 here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tml#post212056

REinforcing that receiver/unibody/rail connection would be a challenge.

never mind the fact that a vdub can tow really big stuff...

YouTube - VW Touareg towing a Boeing 747 - Fifth Gear

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:58 PM   #66
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I think you found the best "consultant" in the world with the Airstream Forum...You'll find diverse opinions, but one agenda---that's to help you. Not likely to find someone here trying to sell you their particular truck, and most of us who write are going to be quite pleased with what we've purchased.

Here's what I believe on this subject:

1. The Cummings Diesel is probably the best diesel engine currently available in a pickup.

2. But the Chevy/GMC Duramax (aka "Izusu") diesel with the Allison Transmission is also very good.

3. Chevy/GMC have the most comfortable cabs

4. 4X4 is an option you'll enjoy having--it will come in useful.

5. For under $20K, you can find an excellent used diesel with options and plenty of miles left.

6. 100K miles on a diesel does not equal 100K miles on a gasoline engine. The diesel will last much longer.

7. The increased diesel fuel economy (21/22 non-towing, 14-15 towing) means more money to go camping, and the ability to stay out there longer.

8. Get the longest wheelbase you can buy--longer wheelbase on the tow vehicle is directly related to stability towing.

9. No need for a dually set up. Four tires will serve you well.

Good luck!!
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:42 AM   #67
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Your love for dodge is well taken, but there is nothing more irritating than a ford or dodge diesel pulling into a campground hammering and clattering.
No, that is wrong. There is nothing more irritating than people. Period. Everybody in the world does something that someone else will find to be a pain. Choice of tow rig is far from the top of the list. I'm sure your Chevy can be an irritant as well.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:54 AM   #68
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After towing my 25' Classic loaded for about 1000 miles with no trailer brakes ( another faulty actibrake actuator) my 2006 Ford F350 Crew cab short bed.needed $1,500.00 worth of brake work which included 2 new rotors ,2 new calipers . the other two rotors turned and new pads all around. I was told by the dealer that under normal use the mileage was about have the life of the components.And I was trying to go easy on the brakes until I got it to the dealer.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:44 AM   #69
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Go big

I have a 34ft excella and have a ford dually 6.0 diesel, put 12000 miles on it this year going to Alaska and back. The ford was up to the challenge with no problems. I had a lessor vechicle at one time and had to watch how I loaded it. The best thing is that I averaged 14 miles to the gallon and felt secure knowing that my ford could handle anything, and get me home safe. My personal comment is go big or stay at home.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:53 AM   #70
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After towing my 25' Classic loaded for about 1000 miles with no trailer brakes ( another faulty actibrake actuator) my 2006 Ford F350 Crew cab short bed.needed $1,500.00 worth of brake work which included 2 new rotors ,2 new calipers . the other two rotors turned and new pads all around. I was told by the dealer that under normal use the mileage was about have the life of the components.And I was trying to go easy on the brakes until I got it to the dealer.
In a similar vein, One of my sons in law - new to RV'ing - just bought a new SOB trailer a few weeks ago.

Amongst all the other extras he paid for at the time of purchase, he paid to have a brake controller installed in his diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee SUV.

Well, they picked up the new trailer, and after being given a walk through by the dealer, headed off on a trip from their home to the coast of Maine and back - probably about the same distance you travelled - through the hills of vermont and New Hampshire.

On his return home, he told us they had a great trip, and all was fine with the trailer except that at times he felt his jeep juddering on long downgrades.

After some investigation, it turned out that although he had paid, no brake controller had been installed so of course he had no trailer brakes for the whole trip!

I believe he learned this through phone conversations with the dealer about the problem after he got home!

Hard for us to comprehend I guess, but never having towed an RV, and knowing no different, he assumed that a brake controller was some hidden gadget installed somewhere under the hood of his tow vehicle, and had no idea that he didn't have one!

Unbelievable that the dealer wouldn't have realized the error though when giving our daughter and son-in law the walk- thru before they left the property with the trailer!

Just shows what can happen! Of course the dealer encouraged our son n law to return very quickly with his jeep to have the error fixed.

Not sure if our son in law has checked his tow vehicle for any brake damage, but after reading your post I will suggest he have it looked at. I imagine under the circumstances that if there was any problem, the embarrassed RV dealer wouldn't baulk too much at paying for repairs!

Brian
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