Tow Vehicle Consultant

[Journalist]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

just taking it WHERE the other camp inevitably goes with brake comparisons.

It wouldn't be airforums if everyone didn't take EVERY thread off into left field would it?

[Jammer]

ne1 seen the OP?

Yhbt. Yhl. Hand.

[slowmover]

I wouldn't be so sure about the truck brake hypothesis. I know of no state that allows for heavy trailers (above 2500-lbs) to run without brakes on the roads. Or that truck manufacturers design these brakes to undergo this duty continually. To stop a fully loaded truck (payload maximum), yes, under stated conditions. To stop a trailer as well, I have my doubts. I've seen cooked brakes, ruined hubs, etc, plenty of times. Truck brakes stop trucks, trailer brakes stop trailers.

You've made the statement, so provide (at least) some ad copy or statute which refers to this.

I also see no reason to doubt those who tow "unconventionally" -- and reporting satisfactory experience over tens of thousands of miles -- to be incorrect in their choice of a TV. If it's bad, then where's the proof? I don't frequent their enthusiast sites but I'd imagine something would have filtered over here by now.

As a newcomer to towing, 2Air, your insistence on, say, placing the trailer brake ONLY to the right is outside of common experience of forty years ago. (Or that it is wise).

Or that cars only rated to 5,500-lbs of towing cannot handle an 8,000-lb trailer is not feasible. It was done, it IS done, and when well-sorted it apparently works and works well. As well, better . . fine, have a face-off somewhere.

My parents and grandparents both kept TV's well past 100 (if not 200) thousand miles with no apparent ill effects: deserts, mountains, foreign countries, etc. Those cars featured custom hitches and hitch heads as that was the way it was done. If one ever compares what the OEM's recommended as a pattern to follow back then -- and see what CAN AM often does (in photo's I've seen) -- then there is a similarity that begs why todays hitch receivers (aftermarket sourced) are so poor in comparison. Those trailers were above TV "maximums".

These sort of assertions are about as weighty as believing that body-on-frame is superior to unit-body in a TV. They don't stand up. Same for this new J2807 standard . . even a guy like me can see huge holes to drive through. One can play the numbers game -- as given by manufacturers without third-party verification which either amends that standard or complements it. Unlikely, given the DOT and NHTSA of today. But it does not mean that that standard is either inclusive or comprehensive. Or that it was accurately done (I don't believe it was).

And because hitch retailers, trailer dealers, etc, don't set up cars or minivans or SUV's to tow "outside of stated maximum" -- as stated plenty of times before they have neither the training, the understanding, nor the desire. Doesn't automatically mean it can't be done. Or is a bad idea. Only that a piece of paper may come back at them. Which doesn't say much for us as a society, does it? The corporation gives us the numbers, the government refuses (ignores) to verify, amend or other, and we're supposed to be stuck with it.

The brake argument is weak. All it takes is rear drums out-of-adjustment (95% of trucks 6-mos old and so equipped) to render that meaningless. An argument about a new FORD SD truck with spotty electrical on a downhill descent makes more sense to flog in regards braking or control as it is nowadays so very dependent on computer projections/corrections.

In other words, while fine on paper, it isn't proven. Towing with what is considered only today -- not years ago -- "unconventional" isn't when you want to play the numbers game.

And ANY reading of ANY diesel truck enthusiast site will show an un-ending number of threads about truck owners towing FAR beyond stated maximums. And not just a few thousand pounds, but TEN or more thousand in some instances. Trucks that have also been substantially tuned to produce far more HP/TQ than the manufacturer intended. Etc, etc.

Maybe some of this heavy-handedness can be reserved for those who tow above 70 mph. An old (I mean old) truck driver told me early on that, "Son, up to 70 mph you drive the truck, but past 70 the truck drives you", a handy way of summing up plenty of evidence (insurance compilations and statistics; lectures from safety directors and the rest) that there is a point where a tow rig passes beyond the realm of reasonable in terms of handling & braking. That the drivers attention is FORCED into a narrow cone to find out what's ahead . . and ignores the mirrors as peripheral vision has shrunk so far. Bad habits. For with a tow rig there are plenty of days and roads where "speeding" has nothing to do with the posted limit.

The best hitch, the best trailer, the best skills mean little then, they but delay the inevitable. There will be a day . . (we hope doesn't come).

In the meantime, wanting a better TV than flimsy standards, conventional thinking (memory limited), and piss-poor truck dynamics is reasonable enough. How to do it is the kicker. No one said it will be easy. But it sure ain't re-inventing the wheel, either.

.

.

[Octoberpfb]

2009 Touareg TDI (not air suspension) towing a 2010 25FB Flying Cloud w/Propride 3 hitch.
TV squats about 3" in rear when hooked up.
Have towed around 2500 miles.
Last trip (LR to Dallas) heard the straining/long-creaking metal sounds one might hear before a WWII submarine implodes! (Especially when taking-off from a stop)
Are my rear bumper bolts about to shear?

[2airishuman]

IF noises n creaking is the issue, make SURE the pp has been GREASED recently, regularly and often.

see da' pp thread for that stuff

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ide-57179.html

Originally Posted by Octoberpfb

...Are my rear bumper bolts about to shear?

the issue with the vdub is that the RECEIVER connections are not easy to inspect...

and the attachment is less than ideal for a w/d hitch (vdubs official position is NO w/d gear)

see how the receiver is attached and hidden in post #35 here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tml#post212056

REinforcing that receiver/unibody/rail connection would be a challenge.

never mind the fact that a vdub can tow really big stuff...

YouTube - VW Touareg towing a Boeing 747 - Fifth Gear

cheers
2air'

[SSChanger]

I think you found the best "consultant" in the world with the Airstream Forum...You'll find diverse opinions, but one agenda---that's to help you. Not likely to find someone here trying to sell you their particular truck, and most of us who write are going to be quite pleased with what we've purchased.

Here's what I believe on this subject:

1. The Cummings Diesel is probably the best diesel engine currently available in a pickup.

2. But the Chevy/GMC Duramax (aka "Izusu") diesel with the Allison Transmission is also very good.

3. Chevy/GMC have the most comfortable cabs

4. 4X4 is an option you'll enjoy having--it will come in useful.

5. For under $20K, you can find an excellent used diesel with options and plenty of miles left.

6. 100K miles on a diesel does not equal 100K miles on a gasoline engine. The diesel will last much longer.

7. The increased diesel fuel economy (21/22 non-towing, 14-15 towing) means more money to go camping, and the ability to stay out there longer.

8. Get the longest wheelbase you can buy--longer wheelbase on the tow vehicle is directly related to stability towing.

9. No need for a dually set up. Four tires will serve you well.

Good luck!!

[redthies]

Originally Posted by r carl

Your love for dodge is well taken, but there is nothing more irritating than a ford or dodge diesel pulling into a campground hammering and clattering.

No, that is wrong. There is nothing more irritating than people. Period. Everybody in the world does something that someone else will find to be a pain. Choice of tow rig is far from the top of the list. I'm sure your Chevy can be an irritant as well.

[craftsman]

After towing my 25' Classic loaded for about 1000 miles with no trailer brakes ( another faulty actibrake actuator) my 2006 Ford F350 Crew cab short bed.needed $1,500.00 worth of brake work which included 2 new rotors ,2 new calipers . the other two rotors turned and new pads all around. I was told by the dealer that under normal use the mileage was about have the life of the components.And I was trying to go easy on the brakes until I got it to the dealer.

[tr674]

I have a 34ft excella and have a ford dually 6.0 diesel, put 12000 miles on it this year going to Alaska and back. The ford was up to the challenge with no problems. I had a lessor vechicle at one time and had to watch how I loaded it. The best thing is that I averaged 14 miles to the gallon and felt secure knowing that my ford could handle anything, and get me home safe. My personal comment is go big or stay at home.

[Wingeezer]

Originally Posted by craftsman

After towing my 25' Classic loaded for about 1000 miles with no trailer brakes ( another faulty actibrake actuator) my 2006 Ford F350 Crew cab short bed.needed $1,500.00 worth of brake work which included 2 new rotors ,2 new calipers . the other two rotors turned and new pads all around. I was told by the dealer that under normal use the mileage was about have the life of the components.And I was trying to go easy on the brakes until I got it to the dealer.

In a similar vein, One of my sons in law - new to RV'ing - just bought a new SOB trailer a few weeks ago.

Amongst all the other extras he paid for at the time of purchase, he paid to have a brake controller installed in his diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee SUV.

Well, they picked up the new trailer, and after being given a walk through by the dealer, headed off on a trip from their home to the coast of Maine and back - probably about the same distance you travelled - through the hills of vermont and New Hampshire.

On his return home, he told us they had a great trip, and all was fine with the trailer except that at times he felt his jeep juddering on long downgrades.

After some investigation, it turned out that although he had paid, no brake controller had been installed so of course he had no trailer brakes for the whole trip!

I believe he learned this through phone conversations with the dealer about the problem after he got home!

Hard for us to comprehend I guess, but never having towed an RV, and knowing no different, he assumed that a brake controller was some hidden gadget installed somewhere under the hood of his tow vehicle, and had no idea that he didn't have one!

Unbelievable that the dealer wouldn't have realized the error though when giving our daughter and son-in law the walk- thru before they left the property with the trailer!

Just shows what can happen! Of course the dealer encouraged our son n law to return very quickly with his jeep to have the error fixed.

Not sure if our son in law has checked his tow vehicle for any brake damage, but after reading your post I will suggest he have it looked at. I imagine under the circumstances that if there was any problem, the embarrassed RV dealer wouldn't baulk too much at paying for repairs!

Brian

[Mikethefixit]

Craftsman I think ya got RIPPED. At 1500 bucks that dealer saw you commin. Just my opinion. I know its smaller but I just finished complete brakes on my 94 F 150 ROTORS,PADS,Bearings and Seals and all new hardware. No new calipers required.I think the parts were under $200 bucks.

[Emh142]

Well gang, that sure was an experience. First, I would like to thank everyone that contributed to this discussion. One thing I didn't hear was anyone advocating the Chevy 3/4 Ton with the 6.something liter gas engine (at least I don't remember seeing anything like that). Basically the dealer told me that the gas V8 had the horses and the torque in a 1/2 ton Silverado to do the job. After reading all the posts I've decided that I'll be making a decision today or tomorrow to either stay on the flat land and keep the 5.3L Yukon or go with a Dodge 2011 3500 diesel. Should be safe. I test drove the F250, Chevy 2500 and Dodge 2500 diesels this week. Chevy rode best and had great power and a little road noise (but the engine was fairly quiet), Ford had outstanding acceleration and very little noise (engine or road) but got really light in the bumps, and the Dodge had excellent ride and acceloration but had significant engine noise. I also tested F350 and Dodge 3500 (about the same). With the Chrysler discount I can get the one ton for about 10K less than a comparable 250 or Chevy 2500. I can live with the noise. Thanks again guys and I will let you know how it works out. But, if anyone has experience with the 3/4 ton Chevrolet or Ford 6+ liter gas engines please let me know.

[grh18]

I bought a 2003 25 foot Safari today. The only truck I have right now is a 2002 four door Tacoma limited 6 cylinder. Would it be too dangerous to tow this camper with this truck? Before getting it wired up for electric brakes using the seven pin adapter I would appreciate someone's honest opinion. My initial thought when I bought the camper is that I will have to get someone with a larger truck to tow the unit home for me and then work on getting a larger tow vehicle. What is the minimum truck size adequate to tow this camper? Comments appreciated.

[Andrew T]

We have several customers that tow with Tacoma's. The 3.4 Litre performs much better than many larger engines and there have been no durability issues with it. Set up properly it can handle as well as a full size so it is not a safety issue

There are several versions of this vehicle and what modifications you make and which hitch you use varies with the model. If you like I can help you through this.

What body configuration do you have?
Two or Four Wheel drive?
What size tires are on it?
Manual or automatic transmission?
Does it have the factory transmission cooler if it has an automatic?

How far away is the Safari?

Andrew T

[ebair]

Having owned a Chev 2500HD 6.0l gas '00 and a duramax '03 and '06 I can attest that the 6 liter gasser is anemic when pulling a triple axle and in my opinion a poor choice. (It sure was a poor choice for me!)
Quote from EMH142," Basically the dealer told me that the gas V8 had the horses and the torque in a 1/2 ton Silverado to do the job" It doesn't, anywhere west of Denver
At the other end of the spectrum the diesels are a joy to use from a power and mileage advantage. We have put 46000 miles on the triple since 2006 (mostly out west in the mountains) and have had no issues with the towing trucks comfort, level of power and ability to tow 10k lbs + day in and day out

[c_lewis77]

I have an 82 34' limited; my TV is a 2000 V10 Excursion 4x4- Tows just fine! Cant speak for the mountains... there are not that many in SE GA!
I have also used an F-250 crew cab 4x4 7.3 Turbo Diesel; If you get a ford diesel, the 7.3 is bulletproof.

[Emh142]

I sprang for a new RAM 3500 6.7 diesel. Got the long bed with 4X4. Will have first test drive today. Thanks to everyone that contributed. I could tell that each of you put a lot of thought into your responses and its good to see that kind of cooperation and exchange of information. My wife and I are looking forward to out first caravan and possibly meeting some of you. Next decisions - tire pressure monitoring (I think yes), winch (pipe dream) and canoe toteing system (highly desired). Best Regards to all. Don Hetzler.

[boondockdad]

When it comes to tow vehicle recommendations, we’ve got anecdotal data on one side, and manufacturer design data on the other.
For me, it’s a no-brainer. I’ll take “tows like a dream!” over engineered “weight ratings”, any day.
Seriously
The 8.1L 2500 ‘Burb is the “Holy Grail” of tow vehicles. GCWR of 19,000 lbs. (Which means effectively 21,850lbs, since everything designed in America has a built-in 15% safety factor-- except Goodyear Marathon’s). 8 passenger seating. 4 wheel drive, and Corinthian leather.
As Ricardo Montalban would say: “Find a Chevrolet Suburban 8.1L, 2500 4x4, LT package, and buy it, my friend.”
So, to sum up:
First, narrow your search based on vehicle weight ratings- then, see what’s in your neighbor’s driveway, and get something twice as expensive.
Good Luck!