Tow Vehicle Brake Upgrades

[slowmover]

Same truck as Gary. Relined at 120K, and now at 210k with 40% remaining.
7,940-lbs solo, and just under 9k hitched. Solo, within 40-lbs at all wheels.

24k is unacceptable in a TV. I'd suspect brake bias to trailer, and hitch setting that allows TT front axle to bear brake burden.

I'd also check for full amperage to each wheel on the TT.

In general, then:

Whatever the pad formulation, only a boy racer (or my late mother) should be going through them so quickly.

I'd start with online forums to see where same spec truck is relining front versus rear. You might be able to find an adult or two to check with.

Late braking is the usual suspect, though. Brakes need be off before beginning any turn or corner. Anything else in these high COG trucks is unacceptable.

What works with trucks is not speed into the turn, but where in relation to the apex does one begin to re-apply power. For example, in a big truck we're looking at posted ramp speeds and coming in 3-5 below that. Exiting the highway, or into a turn.

Exiting a highway means coming down below the speed on the frontage road while on the ramp, and then accelerating UP to speed. Same problem as with TT: no slack with trailer except on that protected ramp or flyover. One need think about exiting this space, not entering it.

Same for coming to a full stop. One doesn't aim for the intersection or the other guys rear bumper, but to a spot well more than ten feet behind it. One bleeds most of the speed far in advance, and is only gliding at the end. Should be able to use my big toe to complete the stop.

Takes 3-5 years to become a decent truck driver and a good deal of the monkey skill is -- as speed declines toward a stop-- what gear I'll grab from thirteen according to the road surface, the loaded weight, and the traffic. Then mix in weather. Etc.

A full on hard stop more than twice a year at 2500-3000 miles weekly would mean I'm slipping in skill. Brakes are a last resort, not an early choice.

Overall, speed is irrelevant.

How's tire wear over the same period? That should be a close relationship.

In the dim dark past of the 1970s as radials were becoming available, changing tires, shocks and brake linings at the same juncture wasn't unusual (40-50k with Michelin). My Dad could always get 90k on brakes out of his Cadillacs. I could never break past 70k.

Brake lockup on gravel or other loose surfaces needs checking. What speed, thus what TT brake setting to use to avoid low speed lockup. Get an observer out there to work with you.

This is also where side/side TT weight imbalances, not just axle differences, may be hurting.

"Equal squat" hitch setting moves as much weight onto TT axles as is possible. Max effort from TT.

Do some testing. From 45 to zero you should be able to come to a shorter stop with the trailer hitched than without. If not, there is work to be done.

Finally, I'd agree that OEM parts may be best. Trucks are expected to do work. With Dodge, one avoids the dealer "value line" brake parts. Use the OEM part numbers.

I'd also compare to Raybestos.

I've had several vehicles redone with Praise Dyno Brake. Very happy with results.

But this truck will stay with OEM Dodge or Raybestos. Bilstein shocks (no fit meant from KONI on 2WD) and Michelin LTX or Bridegstone Duravis. All else would be a step down.

[perryg114]

The guys at Ford-Trucks.com seem to like the Hawk LTS brake pads. I put some of the front of my Excursion and they seem to work ok. I am not a big fan of drilled and slotted rotors. Too bad someone did not make stainless steel rotors. Rotors warp because they were not heat treated properly to relieve internal stresses. I don't have any complaints with my Excursion brakes but I don't full time and don't tow in the mountains that much. My front rotors are warped to some extent but I don't plan on doing anything about it till the pads are ready to be replaced.

Spend some time here. This is the best Excursion forum I have found.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum29/

Perry

[nvestysly]

I am looking for better performing, longer lasting brakes for our 1996 Suburban. So I'm in a similar situation to the OP.

The front brake pads and rotors on our 1996 Suburban last less than 40k miles at best. We've tried several brands and none of them last long. The rotors seem to warp and groove even when the pads have material remaining. On the other hand the brakes on our 2005 Suburban haven't been replaced yet and we're approaching 100k.

I have not been able to find anyone, manufacturer or retailer, that thinks I'll get dramatically more braking capacity or life by buying their product. When I ask why our 2005 has lasted so long they don't have an explanation other than GM changed the design. Okay, so how do I buy components like the 2005 vehicle and put them on the 1996 vehicle? Seems like there is a market out there for a longer lasting, better braking product.

Enough of my rant. When I buy new rotors and pads for our 1996 I'm seriously considering StopTech. They are the only "manufacturer" I've contacted that indicates they have their own rotor design and material specification rather than using Raybestos and other brands in a "re-branded" package. Stainless Steel Brake Company told me they simply repackage the Delco rotors. PowerStop told me they use Delco parts are slot/drill as needed. The local Delco dealer told me their parts are made by Raybestos. I'm confused to say the least.

You can look up all the StopTech part numbers on their web site and then find their parts online or at local retail shops. I'm considering buying my StopTech parts from RockAuto.com or a local shop. Both are about the same price when S&H from RockAuto is factored in.

[CDONA]

I went with a powerstop kit for my '02 Ram CTD. I've got a year use on it now.
I can't really say anything about the difference from stock. It was one of many upgrades I went with after buying the truck used for $10k and added $8k of upgrades.
It stops, doesn't pull to one side, squeal, or vibrate. Everything fit perfect, and a fluid change.

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by slowmover

Whatever the pad formulation, only a boy racer (or my late mother) should be going through them so quickly.

You'd be wrong.

[perryg114]

Driving habits do have a lot to do with how long brakes last. I see folks riding brakes much more than they should. Take your foot off the brake and downshift. Don't tail gate. Watch ahead and anticipate. Pay attention and put away the electronic devices. If you drive in the mountains you are going to spend more on brakes. Brake pads take a few minutes to replace. I rarely turn rotors. If they are warped so bad that you can't hold onto the steering, wheel turning them won't help for long. I expect the Chinese rotors are about as good as stock. Better stuff would probably be Raybestos or Wagner. Drilling and slotting won't get you much. The rotor quality is the main thing. Try a different brand and if they warp take them back. Many have warranties on them. Changing rotors is not all that hard either. You can do it in less time than it takes to drive to a shop to have someone else do it. Always replace bearings and races as a set or knock the old races out and put the old bearings and races in the new rotors. Used OEM bearings will outlast new Chinese bearings.

Perry

[n2916s]

I installed Brake Perfomance slotted/dimpled rotors on my Titan 120000 miles ago. Now on my second set of pads. They don't fade, the pad wear is much longer and they throw less dust onto my wheels.

Weren't ridiculously expensive and I installed them in about an hour.

Mike

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by BoldAdventure

You'd be wrong.

My mother was a "stab braker". All in at the last moment.

Was trying for a light touch.

Too many move to pickups and then drive them like cars. Won't work. At least, not well.

[tjdonahoe]

2500 dodge 6.7, 96000 miles towing the trailer, replaced the front ,pads only, the rears are over 50 percent....

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by slowmover

My mother was a "stab braker". All in at the last moment.

Was trying for a light touch.

Too many move to pickups and then drive them like cars. Won't work. At least, not well.

Brake pads are designed to last 25K to 50K on average. People getting 80K + out of their pads don't drive often.

Here is one source: http://www.econrads.com/Tire-and-Ser...x?ArticleID=25 but a half second of googling will back up my numbers from dozens of places.

I used to autocross for 10yrs and have a lot of experience with high-performance braking applications. And to suggest you know how someone on this forum drives based on an off-hand comment , well I'm just going to be nice here.

It's not unreasonable to speculate that cheap pads made in China might not even make it to the 25K mark under heavy duty use. I've seen cheap Chinese rotors warp after two weeks of use.

[slowmover]

So, did you you find the problem, or?

[Echelon73]

Originally Posted by Ted S.

Considering break upgrades on my 2005 Excursion:

http://www.powerstop.com/product/power-stop-z36-kit/

Does anybody have experience with an upgrade such as this? I have always felt the brakes could use some improvement. I don't know if this would help or if it's more of a gimmick since they are a nice red color. I don't care what they look like, I just want the best for the big hills...

I would check out EBC Brakes for the rotors and pads. A quick look at their catalogue shows they sell a kit for your truck with both included. They make excellent products.

[Ted S.]

Originally Posted by Echelon73

I would check out EBC Brakes for the rotors and pads. A quick look at their catalogue shows they sell a kit for your truck with both included. They make excellent products.

Thanks. I am still looking at brands and products. I will check them out.

I also see NAPA makes some heavy duty calipers, not sure what would make them any better than the standard ones. It seems a lot of these products are basically remanufactured OEM...

One the bright side, they fixed my typo in the Thread title, I was actually quite embarrassed about it.

[ROBERT CROSS]

I've used this company quite often when we did fleet or Hi/perf work at the Chevy Store.
Never had a problem with any of their offerings...Plus they are a local company, 'bout 8mi from our doorstep.

Bob

[Ted S.]

I saw the SSBC.

When I locked up my caliper in FL 1500 miles from home, it was smoking. I thought for sure it was wasted, but it was just fine. Kind of restores my faith in OEM. My local Ford guy, who has work on Ford Truck all of his life and is know in the area as "the guy" says just stay with OEM. He does not like to mod trucks, he likes to keep thinks stock (for the most part). Maybe I don't go too crazy, just get good pads, change out the other calipers so they are all new and go...

The SSBC calipers are $1100 btw, one review says all brake lines need replacing.

[ROBERT CROSS]

"The SSBC calipers are $1100 btw, one review says all brake lines need replacing."
Ted S.

The lines....There is a very good reason SSBC got started here in WNY...."Lake Effect" and salty roads.
Mild steel lines & cheep brake components just don't last around here. I believe the price includes loaded calipers...around $1300 complete......I tink.

Bob

[Ted S.]

My post above is not clear, I meant to say when I locked up my caliper the brakes were smoking they were so hot, I thought for sure the ROTOR was wasted, but it appeared fine. I'm curious if the slotted and drilled rotors would have survived the same.

[jcl]

Drilled rotors are more likely to crack when overheated, unless the blanks were designed to be drilled. Most seem to be simply OE design blanks with aftermarket holes in them; no appreciable additional cooling, which depends on the fin design; less thermal mass so quicker to overheat; and then those holes from which cracks propagate. Proponents talk about out-gassing from the pads, but we aren't using pads that out-gas these days.

Lots of talk above about warped rotors, too. The brake pad manufacturers talk about pad deposition onto the rotor surface being commonly misdiagnosed as warping. If they overheat, it matters whether you stop and then apply the brakes, or stop and let them cool. The former results in more pad material deposition, at one location on the rotor, and apparent warping which is really uneven pad material deposition.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths

Jeff

[Bigventure]

Rotors are cast iron. Not much difference between brands. Pad on the other hand have about 10+ different hardness.

My preference is for OME pads. After all they have a lot of engineers doing testing to get it right.

[J. Morgan]

<<<"Brake pads are designed to last 25K to 50K on average. People getting 80K + out of their pads don't drive often.">>>

Huh?



Brevi tempore!