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Old 04-14-2018, 02:15 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by pteck View Post
-------snip----------------
Great read for those of you that have not come across an apples to apples, almost 3/4 ton, gas to diesel comparison: https://www.tfltruck.com/2016/07/201...towing-review/
This is an excellent comparison of two very closely matched trucks gas vs diesel of similar power output.

IMO these stack well against F150/1500 class or even some SUV size. They are considerably less powerful when compared to a F250/ 2500 DIESEL class truck. Gas XD vs F150 3.5Eco (gas) also did not do well.

The fastest XD (gas) in the video pulled 10600 lbs up the gauntlet in 9:45

The F150 3.5 Ecoboost pulled 9500 lbs up the same run in 7:58

The Ram 2500 Hemi (gas) pulled 11900 lbs up the same in 13:20 BOOOOOOO (obvious weight to HP problem)

The Ram 2500 Cummings (diesel) pulled 12,500 lbs up the same run in 8:05

That is a significant time difference in only 8 miles with WAY more total weight for the Ram.

XD diesel has 310hp/555 lb-ft vs Ram Cummings 370hp/800 lb-ft of torque.

F150 3.5Eco has 375hp/470 lb-ft torque vs Nissan XD 390hp/394 lb-ft torque (gas)

The interesting "take away" is the trucks in each class (gas or diesel) with higher torque pulled MUCH faster than the ones with higher HP when maxed in weight to pull.

These are some numbers and times that should be able to help determine what can tow what "best".

Safe journeys !
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Old 04-14-2018, 05:31 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
My apologies to Nightmare67. My tone was off base.

To Daquenzer, great article. A nicely balanced comparison.

One thing I'll comment on is that an exhaust brake is not an advantage of a diesel platform. It only bring to parity a capability that already exists as part of a gas motor. Yet, a diesel without one fitted is not adequately setup to tow significant loads.

I certainly don't disagree that a 3/4 ton would tow a similar load more effortlessly than a 1/2 ton, especially a heavier trailer. That's not to say that towing a reasonable trailer is outside the capability of a 1/2 ton, especially the more modern ones.

Diesel, now that's a more subjective choice, that is no longer a clear winner today. With the onset of DEF, additional emissions, and the reliability those components bring, to sensitivity of fuels with additional fuel filter maintenance and potential injector issues. It does go about it's work in a seemingly more relaxed manner. Big gassers don't have to run full tilt either and have an extra margin of hp (to weight, and a like of swilling gas) to getting to the top of the hill first.

Great read for those of you that have not come across an apples to apples, almost 3/4 ton, gas to diesel comparison: https://www.tfltruck.com/2016/07/201...towing-review/
I'm sorry to see this gas vs diesel argument still happening....if you have not tried towing your 27' to 30' AS with a 3/4T diesel vs a gas 1/2T or 3/4T TV, up a mountain/down a mountain, with automatic engine brake engaged at speed, I just don't think you folks reading and using equations, or watching video's on torque vs HP, get it. Seems you all will continue to argue.
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:08 PM   #73
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Personally we use a 2012 Ram 2500 HD Cummins for our 9,200 pound 2014 31’ Classic with a 1,175 pound tongue weight. The rig scales 19,200 going down the road. If it fits inside the truck or trailer, we can take it with us.

By contrast, my 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI v6 turbo diesel towed our new empty 2013 25FB International Serenity from the dealer in Los Angles to Phoenix on I-10 at 55 mph and had no issues maintaining that speed in the climb out of Palm Springs. However, it was not happy when the 25FB was loaded to 6,900 pounds camping ready. Thus we got the Ram.

The MB tows our 2015 23D fully loaded at 6,062 pounds and 962 pounds tongue weight with no issues. Have a Hensley Arrow hutch on the 23 D and a ProPride hutch on the Classic. We carefully select the contents in the car to one 2000 watt Honda propane converted generator, gas grill, air compressor, two matching ZipDee chairs, a basic hitching tools bag and tire changing wedge ramp. Plus our laptop computers and other small stuff.
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Old 04-14-2018, 11:06 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
...I just don't think you folks reading and using equations, or watching video's on torque vs HP, get it. Seems you all will continue to argue.
No one is arguing, at least no one with engineering background. The high school crowd still does though...
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:50 AM   #75
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Outside of the awesome job our F250 PowerStroke does towing our 34 foot Avion, one of the best side benefits is: within reason, I don’t have to get the calculator out and do any ciphering before we load something in the truck OR the trailer.

As my hero, Forrest Gump, says.... “Good, one less thing!”
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:46 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Countryboy59 View Post
No one is arguing, at least no one with engineering background. The high school crowd still does though...
Hey, I resemble that!
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:19 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteck View Post
My apologies to Nightmare67. My tone was off base.

To Daquenzer, great article. A nicely balanced comparison.

One thing I'll comment on is that an exhaust brake is not an advantage of a diesel platform. It only bring to parity a capability that already exists as part of a gas motor. Yet, a diesel without one fitted is not adequately setup to tow significant loads.

I certainly don't disagree that a 3/4 ton would tow a similar load more effortlessly than a 1/2 ton, especially a heavier trailer. That's not to say that towing a reasonable trailer is outside the capability of a 1/2 ton, especially the more modern ones.

Diesel, now that's a more subjective choice, that is no longer a clear winner today. With the onset of DEF, additional emissions, and the reliability those components bring, to sensitivity of fuels with additional fuel filter maintenance and potential injector issues. It does go about it's work in a seemingly more relaxed manner. Big gassers don't have to run full tilt either and have an extra margin of hp (to weight, and a like of swilling gas) to getting to the top of the hill first.

Great read for those of you that have not come across an apples to apples, almost 3/4 ton, gas to diesel comparison: https://www.tfltruck.com/2016/07/201...towing-review/
The Diesel engines were outselling gas in the big trucks, before the Jacobs engine brake....they were more economical.... the Jacob engine brake made it even better.....early 1960’s....there are no big gassers anymore...they never had a long life....def..$7.88 for 2.5 gals every 1500 miles towing....no injector problems...the small turboed gas engine is no match to the diesel...go try one yourself....
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:03 PM   #78
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The Diesel engines were outselling gas in the big trucks, before the Jacobs engine brake....they were more economical.... the Jacob engine brake made it even better.....early 1960’s....there are no big gassers anymore...they never had a long life....
We are a long way past the early sixties patent for the Jacob compression brake, over five decades.

In the past six years or so, most heavy truck manufacturers have moved to offer gas engines. Look to Peterbilt, Kenworth, Navistar, Volvo, Mercedes, and others.

Modern gas engines are cleaner burning, offer longer oil change intervals than diesels due to that cleaner burning, offer longer overhaul intervals in many cases (these engines are built on the same blocks as their diesel kin), and are now available in some models with not only identical hp and torque curves, but matching torque curves for the same driving experience. Those ones are engines using the diesel cycle, but not burning diesel. Westport is a supplier, working with Cummins. I should say similar driving experience, since they are quieter (lower peak cylinder pressures). And remember that the fuel is cheaper.

They are not yet for every application due to the range issues (return to base applications often work well with CNG, longer range applications may use LNG on some routes).

The most recent Volvo release is here (global site):

http://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/tru...vo-fh-lng.html

Coming soon to North America. Apparently these companies didn't get the memo that there are no big gas engines anymore.
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:32 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by jcl View Post
We are a long way past the early sixties patent for the Jacob compression brake, over five decades.

In the past six years or so, most heavy truck manufacturers have moved to offer gas engines. Look to Peterbilt, Kenworth, Navistar, Volvo, Mercedes, and others.

Modern gas engines are cleaner burning, offer longer oil change intervals than diesels due to that cleaner burning, offer longer overhaul intervals in many cases (these engines are built on the same blocks as their diesel kin), and are now available in some models with not only identical hp and torque curves, but matching torque curves for the same driving experience. Those ones are engines using the diesel cycle, but not burning diesel. Westport is a supplier, working with Cummins. I should say similar driving experience, since they are quieter (lower peak cylinder pressures). And remember that the fuel is cheaper.

They are not yet for every application due to the range issues (return to base applications often work well with CNG, longer range applications may use LNG on some routes).

The most recent Volvo release is here (global site):

http://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/tru...vo-fh-lng.html

Coming soon to North America. Apparently these companies didn't get the memo that there are no big gas engines anymore.
Bio-LPG.? Where?
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:17 PM   #80
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Take a look at “Keep Your Day Dream” on you-tube. Marc does a excellent job describing towing weights and what you need to know to travel safe and legal.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:14 AM   #81
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Bio-LPG.? Where?
That would be LNG, not LPG (unless you want to run a BBQ).

CNG and LNG are both available here. I am sure that at some point Montana will have stations as well.

I passed a Pete 386 on the TransCanada freeway last weekend, hauling a tanker. It is one of 50 in a local fleet running on LNG. The station near their depot opened in 2011. Someone should tell them that nobody runs gas engines any more

http://www.veddertransportation.com/lng-updates.php

Map of US natural gas stations here:

https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/na...arest?fuel=CNG
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Old 04-16-2018, 04:03 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by DBinSD View Post
This is an excellent comparison of two very closely matched trucks gas vs diesel of similar power output.

IMO these stack well against F150/1500 class or even some SUV size. They are considerably less powerful when compared to a F250/ 2500 DIESEL class truck. Gas XD vs F150 3.5Eco (gas) also did not do well.

The fastest XD (gas) in the video pulled 10600 lbs up the gauntlet in 9:45

The F150 3.5 Ecoboost pulled 9500 lbs up the same run in 7:58

The Ram 2500 Hemi (gas) pulled 11900 lbs up the same in 13:20 BOOOOOOO (obvious weight to HP problem)

The Ram 2500 Cummings (diesel) pulled 12,500 lbs up the same run in 8:05

That is a significant time difference in only 8 miles with WAY more total weight for the Ram.

XD diesel has 310hp/555 lb-ft vs Ram Cummings 370hp/800 lb-ft of torque.

F150 3.5Eco has 375hp/470 lb-ft torque vs Nissan XD 390hp/394 lb-ft torque (gas)

The interesting "take away" is the trucks in each class (gas or diesel) with higher torque pulled MUCH faster than the ones with higher HP when maxed in weight to pull.

These are some numbers and times that should be able to help determine what can tow what "best".

Safe journeys !
There are so many unmatched variables in this “data” I didn’t even read the whole test. The torque/hp “argument” is like asking someone whether they would rather have more volts or kilowatts. Or whether they’d rather walk to work or take their lunch.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:46 AM   #83
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There are so many unmatched variables in this “data” I didn’t even read the whole test. The torque/hp “argument” is like asking someone whether they would rather have more volts or kilowatts. Or whether they’d rather walk to work or take their lunch.


Unmatched variables...

Well it is a simple test many look to for towing performance.

Each truck is loaded to max payload, max tow capacity then timed up the sane 8 mile hill. Pretty straight forward.

How you interpreted the data or what you like best HP or Torque is your choice.

I put up 4 separate trucks so people can see an actual “test” of capabilities instead of theoretical guesses. Your unwillingness to accept the data does not disprove its accuracy.

I hope whatever you have exceeds your expectation!
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:26 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
We are a long way past the early sixties patent for the Jacob compression brake, over five decades.

In the past six years or so, most heavy truck manufacturers have moved to offer gas engines. Look to Peterbilt, Kenworth, Navistar, Volvo, Mercedes, and others.

Modern gas engines are cleaner burning, offer longer oil change intervals than diesels due to that cleaner burning, offer longer overhaul intervals in many cases (these engines are built on the same blocks as their diesel kin), and are now available in some models with not only identical hp and torque curves, but matching torque curves for the same driving experience. Those ones are engines using the diesel cycle, but not burning diesel. Westport is a supplier, working with Cummins. I should say similar driving experience, since they are quieter (lower peak cylinder pressures). And remember that the fuel is cheaper.

They are not yet for every application due to the range issues (return to base applications often work well with CNG, longer range applications may use LNG on some routes).

The most recent Volvo release is here (global site):

http://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/tru...vo-fh-lng.html

Coming soon to North America. Apparently these companies didn't get the memo that there are no big gas engines anymore.


These new engines burn CNG or LNG, not gasoline. Big difference. Industry has been using Diesel engines converted to burn these fuels for decades. The only difference here is the engine is designed from the beginning to burn them.
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