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Old 06-26-2014, 08:05 PM   #15
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Thanks everyone

This is starting the make sense to me... so payload is people, dogs, gear, truck accessories and tongue weight added together.

So now here's a very stupid question does GVWR mean the same thing as towing capacity? On the new truck we looked at, they said a towing capacity of 11000, would that mean GVWR of 11,000? And then with a 5500 lb truck, the payload would be 5500?

I'm also still a little fuzzy on tongue weight. Is that just something that's set for the trailer or does it depend on what stuff we put in the trailer? I'm assuming it depends on stuff but just want to make sure. Is there a formula for figuring out tongue weight?

thanks again (and again and again)!
Hi there,

GVWR is not the same as towing capacity.

GVWR: Maximum allowed weight of your vehicle.
Curb weight: Weight of your empty vehicle as delivered from the factory
Payload = GVWR - curb weight

The weight of passengers, cargo, vehicle accessories, and trailer tongue weight should be less than your payload.

Towing capacity is how heavy a trailer your vehicle is designed to tow. Usually, there are two ratings: Weight carrying (no weight distribution hitch used), and Weight Distribution. The latter is usually higher.

Front and rear axles of your vehicle also have ratings which should not be exceeded. Your hitch also has a rating on the tongue weight it can support. Again, with weight distribution, this rating is higher.

In summary, what you can tow is decided by

1) Tow rating
2) Payload
3) Front/rear axle ratings
4) hitch rating

Tow ratings are usually the Maximum you can tow under ideal conditions. You would run out of payload usually way before you get close to your max tow rating.

Here is a good link if some of what I said does not make sense

Trailer Loading and Towing Guide
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:07 PM   #16
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oops I forgot GCVWR, but others mentioned it.
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:16 PM   #17
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Don't buy a used one or even a new F-150, LEASE, it's the only way to go. Get what you want and try it out for 2 years, then if you like it, buy it. You know the service record, you know what you like about it, so buy it then. If you don't like it, turn it in, and try something else.
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:45 PM   #18
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This is how I feel searching for the perfect tow vehicle.
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:46 PM   #19
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For what it's worth coming second hand from the horses mouth, (next door neighbour is management at Ford). "Ford is having problems with Ecoboost engines". He wouldn't give me any specifics as he stated that Ford is trying to remedy the situation very quietly as people bring their trucks into the dealership for service. However, he stated that once the warranty was up, the problem would persist and since whatever original service work performed by Ford wasn't mentioned to the owner, the owner wouldn't know that the problem was persistent and what steps to take to avoid a catastrophic failure.

This is my somewhat educated guess. My boss bought a 2010 VW Jetta diesel which had 15,000 km oil change intervals. He religiously observed these intervals even though I had said to him that I thought the interval was too long and the oil would get contaminated, causing problems later. This past month at 215,000 kms the turbo shaft wore through and broke, sending oil through the catalytic converters and particulate filters. This has resulted in a quote from VW of $7,000 Canadian in parts to fix.

If I were an Eco boost owner I would be getting my oil analyzed every oil change to keep an eye on particulates in the oil as turbo's hate dirty oil. I could see Ford doing an extra oil change or two, and not telling the owner to keep the turbo's working until the warranty was up.

I could be wrong so take this with a grain of salt but seriously.....if you're running turbo's it's always a good idea to get the oil analyzed.

Cheers
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:33 PM   #20
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Mikekey when you take the test drive get the truck weighed. The door sticker will give the max weights but generally doesn't give the empty weight. With options and such you really want to find out what it weighs with you in it. Since it won't likely have full fuel figure how many gallons to add and do the math adding that to the weight you see on the scales. Now you have 'real' numbers to work with, not the marketing hype.
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:52 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by rostam View Post
Hi there,

GVWR is not the same as towing capacity.

GVWR: Maximum allowed weight of your vehicle.
Curb weight: Weight of your empty vehicle as delivered from the factory
Payload = GVWR - curb weight

The weight of passengers, cargo, vehicle accessories, and trailer tongue weight should be less than your payload.

Towing capacity is how heavy a trailer your vehicle is designed to tow. Usually, there are two ratings: Weight carrying (no weight distribution hitch used), and Weight Distribution. The latter is usually higher.

Front and rear axles of your vehicle also have ratings which should not be exceeded. Your hitch also has a rating on the tongue weight it can support. Again, with weight distribution, this rating is higher.

In summary, what you can tow is decided by

1) Tow rating
2) Payload
3) Front/rear axle ratings
4) hitch rating

Tow ratings are usually the Maximum you can tow under ideal conditions. You would run out of payload usually way before you get close to your max tow rating.

Here is a good link if some of what I said does not make sense

Trailer Loading and Towing Guide

I had to sleep on it but the lightbulb is starting to go off

For my trailer we have a GVWR of 7300. So with everything loaded, including bikes on the back, full tanks, stuff, etc the trailer can only ever weigh 7300. According the the sticker in the wardrobe we have 1329 lbs available for stuff (I'm pretty sure that I'm reading that correctly).

So really, for my trailer as long as the truck as a tow capacity over 7300, we should be fine, correct? Looking at the tow capacity chart, I'm seeing numbers as low as 5500 and as high as 113000. I am thinking we would want to be around 8000 and above, just to be safe. Does that seem reasonable?

Then what is probably the more important number, the Max Payload. So for this I take the GVWR of the truck minus the curb weight (empty weight of truck as sent from factory, in my case this number needs to be 5500 or less so it doesn't need to have commercial plates or at least that's what I can tell from the NY DMV website). Then this payload number needs to equal less than the weight of people, stuff, truck accessories, tongue weight, etc. I should subtract the 150 lbs that Ford counts for the driver, right? What about counting a full tank of gas or is that accounted for? And to really determine this, if I find a truck I like I should test drive it over to the scale.

Then I also need to pay attention to the front/rear axle ratings. This part is new to me and I don't really understand it. Are there recommended ratings? And if so, where do I find that info?

And I need to check my hitch rating. I have not looked at the hitch that came with my trailer but I'm going to assume this info is on there. I will look at this today.

thanks!
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:37 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by jgpenn View Post
I had to sleep on it but the lightbulb is starting to go off

For my trailer we have a GVWR of 7300. So with everything loaded, including bikes on the back, full tanks, stuff, etc the trailer can only ever weigh 7300. According the the sticker in the wardrobe we have 1329 lbs available for stuff (I'm pretty sure that I'm reading that correctly).

So really, for my trailer as long as the truck as a tow capacity over 7300, we should be fine, correct? Looking at the tow capacity chart, I'm seeing numbers as low as 5500 and as high as 113000. I am thinking we would want to be around 8000 and above, just to be safe. Does that seem reasonable?

Then what is probably the more important number, the Max Payload. So for this I take the GVWR of the truck minus the curb weight (empty weight of truck as sent from factory, in my case this number needs to be 5500 or less so it doesn't need to have commercial plates or at least that's what I can tell from the NY DMV website). Then this payload number needs to equal less than the weight of people, stuff, truck accessories, tongue weight, etc. I should subtract the 150 lbs that Ford counts for the driver, right? What about counting a full tank of gas or is that accounted for? And to really determine this, if I find a truck I like I should test drive it over to the scale.

Then I also need to pay attention to the front/rear axle ratings. This part is new to me and I don't really understand it. Are there recommended ratings? And if so, where do I find that info?

And I need to check my hitch rating. I have not looked at the hitch that came with my trailer but I'm going to assume this info is on there. I will look at this today.

thanks!
GVWR and towing capacity are 2 different things. I will try to explain them with an example.

GVWR is a limit on your trucks weights. Lets say you take truck to a CAT scale. You will get the weight of your front axle (say 3000#) and your rear axle (say 3000#). Add them up and you have your gross vehicle weight (3000 + 3000 = 6000#). If your GVWR is 7500# (you can find this number in users manual or driver side door jam) then you have 7500 - 6000 = 1500# of payload. Hence, the weight of passengers, accessories, cargo, and trailer tongue weight combined should be less than 1500# OR you will be overloading your truck, as you would exceed the 7500# rating. Your front and rear axles also have ratings: Front Axle Weight Rating (or FAWR) and Rear Axle Weight Ratings (RAWR), again specified in users manual and driver side door jam (say 3200# for FAWR and 4200# for RAWR). You need to make sure when u have the trailer hitched up, you do not exceed those.

Tow rating is how heavy a trailer your truck can tow (its unrelated to the weight of your truck and hence to GVWR). Let's say your truck is rated to tow 8000#. This means you can pull an 8000# trailer, not any heavier.

Your hitch should also have a sticker which specifies its ratings. Say your hitch is good for a 9000# trailer and a 900# tongue weight.

Some manufacturers specify a GCVWR (Gross Combined Vehicle eight Rating) which is the maximum truck + trailer weight.

What you can tow is decided by the combination of all these factors: tow rating, GCVWR, Payload, axle ratings, and hitch ratings. Just be aware, you may run out of payload way before you get close to your tow rating. Tow rating can only be achieved if you travel alone, have no cargo, etc.

Hope this helps
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Old 06-27-2014, 11:11 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgpenn View Post
2009 International 25FB (GVWR 7300)
I'm looking at a very similar trailer as my first (was thinking 23' but now likely 25'), so sort of in the same boat as you.

Don't have the trailer yet but after a lot of searching I just purchased a 2012 F-150 5.0 V8 with the 7350 GVWR package (over 1600 lbs of load capacity) and an integrated brake controller for my tow vehicle.

Some of my search findings can be found here.

One thing I found extremely helpful with respect to Ford trucks is that you can get the original window sticker by knowing the VIN number. That helped me tremendously as you can find out the gear ratio and other features that some dealers don't know.

Just go to this site:

services.forddirect.fordvehicles.com/inventory/WindowSticker.pdf?vin=

and add the VIN after the equal sign.

This is an example of a window sticker for a truck I did not buy.

http://services.forddirect.fordvehic...FW1EF2CFB75203

Good luck.
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:30 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ View Post
I'm looking at a very similar trailer as my first (was thinking 23' but now likely 25'), so sort of in the same boat as you.

Don't have the trailer yet but after a lot of searching I just purchased a 2012 F-150 5.0 V8 with the 7350 GVWR package (over 1600 lbs of load capacity) and an integrated brake controller for my tow vehicle.

Some of my search findings can be found here.

One thing I found extremely helpful with respect to Ford trucks is that you can get the original window sticker by knowing the VIN number. That helped me tremendously as you can find out the gear ratio and other features that some dealers don't know.

Just go to this site:

services.forddirect.fordvehicles.com/inventory/WindowSticker.pdf?vin=

and add the VIN after the equal sign.

This is an example of a window sticker for a truck I did not buy.

http://services.forddirect.fordvehic...FW1EF2CFB75203

Good luck.
Thanks! Helpful info
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:31 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by rostam View Post
GVWR and towing capacity are 2 different things. I will try to explain them with an example.

GVWR is a limit on your trucks weights. Lets say you take truck to a CAT scale. You will get the weight of your front axle (say 3000#) and your rear axle (say 3000#). Add them up and you have your gross vehicle weight (3000 + 3000 = 6000#). If your GVWR is 7500# (you can find this number in users manual or driver side door jam) then you have 7500 - 6000 = 1500# of payload. Hence, the weight of passengers, accessories, cargo, and trailer tongue weight combined should be less than 1500# OR you will be overloading your truck, as you would exceed the 7500# rating. Your front and rear axles also have ratings: Front Axle Weight Rating (or FAWR) and Rear Axle Weight Ratings (RAWR), again specified in users manual and driver side door jam (say 3200# for FAWR and 4200# for RAWR). You need to make sure when u have the trailer hitched up, you do not exceed those.

Tow rating is how heavy a trailer your truck can tow (its unrelated to the weight of your truck and hence to GVWR). Let's say your truck is rated to tow 8000#. This means you can pull an 8000# trailer, not any heavier.

Your hitch should also have a sticker which specifies its ratings. Say your hitch is good for a 9000# trailer and a 900# tongue weight.

Some manufacturers specify a GCVWR (Gross Combined Vehicle eight Rating) which is the maximum truck + trailer weight.

What you can tow is decided by the combination of all these factors: tow rating, GCVWR, Payload, axle ratings, and hitch ratings. Just be aware, you may run out of payload way before you get close to your tow rating. Tow rating can only be achieved if you travel alone, have no cargo, etc.

Hope this helps
VERY helpful, thanks!
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Old 06-30-2014, 02:52 PM   #26
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Just to follow up, we decided to go with a 2014 Dodge Ram 2500 6.4L V8 Hemi. Totally not what we were looking for originally but I was worried we would be over payload in anything smaller.

Thanks again everyone! Your responses were super helpful
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Old 06-30-2014, 03:03 PM   #27
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do we really need the Max Tow? Or maybe we don't need the Ecoboost and should get the 5.0 L with the V8? Or maybe there's another way to go altogether?
No, either engine will do although the ecoboost will give you 1-3 mpg better mileage on the highway when not towing.

Find a truck, open the drivers door, look at the sticker relating to tires and it will give you a maximum load amount with all considerations done- axles, etc. This is your payload rating on that truck AS CONFIGURED. You will need, at minimum, the regular tow package. My tongue weight is 1000# loaded with LP and it is a 25' rated at 860# by AS. This is subtracted directly from that door sticker figure. What is left is for people and stuff in the truck. Anything else, put in the trailer. The pulling or towing rating is not the issue as much as the payload. This gives you several additionals - tranny cooler, bigger axle, etc. It does not include a brake controller like the bigger package but it can be added and, programmed by the dealer. I bought a used certified preowned with tow package. If you get the VIN# of the truck you can look up exactly what came on the truck- the ONLY way to really know unless the dealer can provide the original window sticker. I pull mine with a 4.6L 3V (292 hp/320ftlbs) and a 3.55 rear end. Works just fine.

BTW, if you shop outside of your model years range, the 2009-2010 had two 4.6L engines but they are VERY different. The 4.6L 2V is the low end. The 4.6L 3V was the Wards 10 best engines winner for power and economy. The 5.4 Liter is bigger and thirstier but only produced 17 more horsepower and 45 ft lbs more. So either one would work.

Ford includes a full tank of gas on the payload figure as per the manual.
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Old 06-30-2014, 03:33 PM   #28
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Just to follow up, we decided to go with a 2014 Dodge Ram 2500 6.4L V8 Hemi. Totally not what we were looking for originally but I was worried we would be over payload in anything smaller.

Thanks again everyone! Your responses were super helpful
You're going to love that truck. Dodge won me over fast. Congrats.
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