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Old 09-11-2003, 04:10 PM   #1
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Top Ten tow vehicles ??

Does anyone know if there exists here or somewhere else a survey of new and used tow vehicles?

It would be great if there was a 'consumer report' type of survey. For instance best SUVs with 8000 lb. tow capacities for under $15k.

We don't have a tow vehicle, we're going to try to match it to our (as yet undiscovered ), Airstream. We prefer an SUV to a pickup, maybe a van is in the middle, but it sure would be fantastic if there was one handy-dandy chart!

You know, 'how does a 350 van compare to an Excursion?'

The other key thing would be reliability - consumer reports does 'Best whatever under $14k or $10k or $20k' whatever.
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Old 09-11-2003, 05:21 PM   #2
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That sure would be handy...

In the meantime, you may want to check out these Polls:

Style of your Tow Vehicle
Make of your Tow Vehicle
What's your Tow Vehicle's rating?

Also, this is a good opportunity to remind everybody to check out (and vote if you haven't already) all the Member Demographic Polls. They let everybody know "who we are".

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Old 09-11-2003, 07:11 PM   #3
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Thanks -

Great to look at those polls...

It seems like if I paid $5000 for a 25', 1974 trailer and pulled it with a Suburban I'd fit into the demographics just right.
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Old 09-11-2003, 11:38 PM   #4
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We tow our 25' with a diesel Excursion and love it. Most of the time we have to look at the mirrors to check if our AS is still there since we barely feel it. We live at the bottom of a 2mile really steep hill and it climbs it like a goat.

The Reese Dual Cam is unbelievable, fully reccomend every inch of it.

We tried the Suburban - have to go with a 2500 because of the rear axle ratio - but we couldn't find a diesel.

Good luck with your search!
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Old 09-11-2003, 11:49 PM   #5
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I did SOOOOO much research for our tow vehicle, I would have loved an easier way to do it, but mostly I just had lists of vehicles, how much they could tow, what their wheelbase was, and what size engine was required. Then I spent weeks going through consumer reports, NHTSA recalls and trouble reports, service bulletens, and any other reviews I could find. Since I also wanted a vehicle that could carry a lot of goods to use with our business, we kept coming back to vans, and finally setled on the Ford E150. I was amazed at all the good reviews I found of Ford vans, and happy owners reports.

I definitly advise you to wait to get the tow vehicle until you have found the trailer, if possible. Although we ended up with a light, vintage trailer and a tow vehicle big enough for anything we would want, you just never know, and you'd hate to find the perfect trailer and have to pass on it because you had already picked a tow vehicle. We had a friend bring our trailer home for us and then went and found a tow vehicle within the next couple weeks. Luckily we had already figured out what we wanted, it was just a matter of finding one in good shape with a tow package (harder to find on a van).

Good luck!
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Old 09-12-2003, 06:47 AM   #6
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Quote:
For instance best SUVs with 8000 lb. tow capacities for under $15k.
Your kidding right? I don't think you can get much of anything for under $20K, at least around here, that is NEW.

If your looking used, you can find all kinds of decent vehicles, as lease residuals are in the dumpers now, with all the incentives they are offering. Market is flooded with used vehicles. Our local GM/CD dealer has around 20 pickups of every flavor.

Back in "The Good Ole Days", you could get a nice stripped down vehicle for a decent price. Most vehicles on a dealers lot now days are "Loaded". I got nothin' against rolling down a window with a crank, or reaching over to unlock a door.
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Old 09-12-2003, 07:49 AM   #7
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Well if your looking used those prices are in line.

I wanted plenty of engine. I found that at regular intervals late 80's Burbs hit the market with low miles. There is one on the VAC site I believe right now with under 80k.

A lot of these are owners that bought them to pull a TT only. So the miles are low. Most are very well maintained. My Burb is a 88 that had 72k on it. It's nearly perfect. It belonged to a forum member.

I did have some age related problems but now that I'm through those I'm extreamly happy. I purchaced it for $5k and I have about about $700 in it in minor repairs and a few modifications that were elective. Aux coolers, aux temp gage for Trans and oil temps, defective radio antenna, new radiator and hoses, clogged EGR, new speakers and CD player.

I would expect to have many of the same problems with even a 5 year old vehicle so your not gaining much with a newer vehicle. Bonus was the only thing that I needed to do to pull our Airstream was change the plug to match the newer style on our coach ($35). It even had a good brake controler. That alone saved me $200 or more if I had to pay somebody to install.

What I ended up with was a very clean 88 Suburban with a 454 and a 8k towing capacity with the 3.73 gear. With a 4.10 it has 10k rating but would need the factory hitch changed out.
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Old 09-12-2003, 12:34 PM   #8
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Thanks for the good feedback!

Yes, I should have clarified, I was definitely thinking 'used'.

When consumer's reports does their used car guide they'll say:

top ten used cars under $4000

sd
fsd
fsd
f

top ten used cars under $7000

dfd
s
fs

top ten used cars under $10000

And so on - very useful.


In terms of vans, it seems like the pros and cons are:

pros:

cheaper than an SUV
more storage than an SUV

cons:

not very 'cute'

Don't know how they do on dirt roads when you're boondocking? (I.E. is there anyplace you'd want to pull your Airstream that a van couldn't take you?)
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Old 09-12-2003, 01:22 PM   #9
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Tow Vehicle: E-150?

Recommendation: E-Series vans are nice, but Ford has poured nearly all their developmental money into SUV's over the last 7 years... and it shows in their legacy vehicles such as the Econoline.

Don't expect anything close to the fit and finish of a Navigator/Explorer/Expedition... (let along a Lexus). The E-Series interior looks like it's 15 years behind the industry in terms of fit/finish/quality feel and NVH (noise, vibration, harshness).

Driver's seat doesn't go back far enough. Seat belts are still anchored onto B/C pillars... makes it hard to get to third row.

No driver's side rear door (like the Chevy fullsize).

I didn't expect much from my van -- other than sturdy reliability and the torque to pull the largest AS -- so I wasn't disappointed in the least (even after a paint defect in my '03 E-350 with the PowerStroke 7.3L diesel caused me to go to Ford's dispute settlement board and win my money back). I turned around and bought an '04 E-350 6.8L V10.

Here are some errant ramblings about the E-Series you may find helpful:

Super duty chassis is a very rough ride. I heard someone say that that was not good for an AS.

PowerStroke diesel pulled like a locomotive -- loved it! Just couldn't afford the $1,000 price increase from when I was ready to buy my '04 ($5,200 option, now). Geesh!

Ford's installing their new 6.0L turbo diesel in the E-Series this January. It'll be mated to a 5-speed automatic. I recommend waiting for this combo. The new turbo diesel has more hp, more torque, better gas mileage than the old PowerStroke. Plus the 5-speed auto helps, too. (and i hear it'll be quieter, too).

I had a 3.55 limited slip rear on my '03 diesel. Tow rating of 10,000 lbs.?

My '04 has a 3.73 limited rear slip (couldn't get 3.55 with the Triton V10 gas engine... peak torque is much higher than the diesel)... this combo's tow rating is 8,800 (i think).

Fuel economy with my diesel was approximately 18 mpg highway (I did not pull a trailer) but I was averaging 70 mph.

Fuel economy with my gas E-350 is approximately 14 mpg highway (again, no trailer) averaging 70 mph. (I too, am still looking for my first AS).

Gas engine is much quieter, less exhaust stink.

Do not buy a E-150: brakes are its achilles heel. My brothers both go through pads every 10k or so... pulling a trailer makes it worse. E-350 brakes could stop a locomotive... 4 wheel disc, dual piston front calipers clamping down on massive rotors. It's worth the peace of mind, and less frequent maintenance.

Options you must have on your van:

Trailer package; Trailer Tow Mirrors; Auxillary Battery (mounted behind side passenger door in front of rear wheel).

E-mail me with more questions if you got 'em... but I would go with an E-350 tow vehicle if you aren't looking for Lexus luxury.
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Old 09-12-2003, 02:29 PM   #10
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Top 10 tow vehicles

Do not go by the charts. We purchased a 25' Safari instead of a Classis as the Classic was border line for pulling with a 2002 Youkon. The charts indicated that I had a margin of error with the lighter trailer. The Safari was 1000lbs lighter. Was very unhappy towing with this. Even on flat roads the rpm's were way up there and the milage only 10 to12 mpg. Traded to a 2002 Excursion 7.3 L diesel and was a world of difference. Power, suspension and braking was was superior with Excursion (250 chassis). The Excursion gets 22 to 24 on hgy at 65 to 75plus mph and 14 to 17 pulling trailer. While the sticker price is pushing 50K loaded they do not have a good resale (maybe due to the fact that Ford will not be making in the future). Have not shopped by understand the wholesale mine is approx 28K. I would look for one a year or two old. Being a diesel, you don't have to worry about 25 to 50K miles is taken care of. While the pick ups are cheaper new, my guess is that the resale on used p/u's is higher.
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Old 09-12-2003, 03:03 PM   #11
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I like the 3/4 ton ford chassie with the powerstroke. F-250, E-250, and Excursion. Yes the drawback is the sticker price. The advantages well for towing its clear, fuel economy is also good expecially for such a large vehicle. According to "the ford book" these have a convential towing capacity of 12,500 with load equalization and 6500 without. From first hand knowledge I know this to be true and very under-rated for the actual load but not necessary in the convential towing. I have seen a F-350 using a gooseneck trailer pull onto a set of scales and weigh out gross truck, trailer and load at 42,000 lbs, this make me confident that I can tow any travel trailer on the market.
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Old 09-12-2003, 03:05 PM   #12
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We are pulling our 25' Classic with a 2002 Yukon 6.0L engine and so far so good. We just got the A/S in July, but have been on a few trips one at 9000 feet. If we were to trade the 6.0L Yukon we would get the 8.5 Yukon - just love it!
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Old 09-12-2003, 07:10 PM   #13
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Another vote for Powerstroke Diesel tow rigs, F-250, Excursion, F-350 or E-350, the choice is yours!! Stay away from the E-350 15 passenger vans, too much rear overhang and handling issues.

(BTW, the diesel is not available in an E-250)

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Old 09-12-2003, 07:18 PM   #14
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The Ford Power strokes 7.3 is a great motor. They are having some problems with the newest version. I'm sure that will be worked out soon.

Unless your paying cash for a 2-3 year old vehicle the real bargain may be new if you can land low or no interest rate. You will make up for the cost of new with the savings on financing.

On the GM end: I am not a fan of the GM 6.2 and 6.5 Deisels and for what I was prepared to spend that was all that was in my range. That's why I opted for the gas pig 454. My is just before they got the 4L80 over drive transmission. I have the TH400. I suffer in MPG. It get's 10 empty no matter how I drive it. funny thing is with 7500lb behind it It got 9.25 in the hills. It just really doesn't care about weight...it's going to get abut 10. The 4L80 equipped 94 Burb my buddy has get's 14. It's all in the transmission. I'm looking at a Gear Vendors OD WIth gas prices as they are I figure I can pay for it in 2 years with the driving I do. That is if I have to pay for it but that's another story.



The New Duramax is a wonderful motor and the Allison is a heck of a transmission. Not much bad has been surfacing on them lately. They had some new product blues when they first came out but it looks resolved.

My ideal vehicl of the future will be a F250 7.3 PS crew cab short bed 4x4 probably with stick. A couple friend have them. One buddy just ran from Atlanta to Ancorage and was poping 15mpg with his 39ft 5th wheel weighing around 7K. That's pretty impressive.

Dodge cumings is a good motor as well.

The Big three have a heck of a deisel line up right now. I really don't think you can go wrong on that from any of them.

4x4 does have an advantage I have already found out. I had to pull off on the side of the road because I thought I had a problem. The gras was like grease and I almost didn't get it out with out a pull. That was with 7500lb behind it. Many of the Ralleys are set up in a feild and you may on occasion traverse wet grass if your palling on being active other owners have warned when this subject has come up in the past. Something to concider.
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Old 09-17-2003, 11:00 AM   #15
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Cool Re: Top Ten tow vehicles ??

Quote:
Originally posted by darkStar
Does anyone know if there exists here or somewhere else a survey of new and used tow vehicles?

It would be great if there was a 'consumer report' type of survey. For instance best SUVs with 8000 lb. tow capacities for under $15k.

We don't have a tow vehicle, we're going to try to match it to our (as yet undiscovered ), Airstream. We prefer an SUV to a pickup, maybe a van is in the middle, but it sure would be fantastic if there was one handy-dandy chart!

You know, 'how does a 350 van compare to an Excursion?'

The other key thing would be reliability - consumer reports does 'Best whatever under $14k or $10k or $20k' whatever.

I know what you mean. You buy the trailer you want....now to find a towing vehichle. We only pull a 2002 CCD and had to sell the farm (literally) to pay for the car to pull it. A Toyota Sequoia (which everyone knows is actually a Tundra underneath). Anyway, now, If I can just get on the road again with it I'll be happy. And if hubby would just learn how to make a campfire. lol.

Chris
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Old 10-14-2005, 06:17 AM   #16
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Tow Vehicle Question

We drag our 34' with a 94 Dodge V-10 (300 hp) 5 spd. manual 3/4 ton 4x4 and have had no problems except paying for gas. Around 10mpg but will be slowing down this trip that starts tomorrow. Trying to go 60 this trip. Will have to use cruise control or I'll be doing 70 to 75 before I know it.

Gary
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Old 10-14-2005, 09:42 AM   #17
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Here's an article on Half Tons from Aug '04

Probably important to note that all of these trucks have probably changed slightly since the review. I know the Tundra gained some signifigant torque & horsepower increases and the I'm sure the others have also had some changes.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...08/ai_n9455117
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Old 10-14-2005, 12:00 PM   #18
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Triton Design Defect

I had a 2001 Ford Excursion with the Triton V10 gas engine. It towed excellently. However, at 36,348 miles it spit a spark plug out of the head, blew threw the coil-on-plug ignition module on that plug, and ruined my trip.

Granted it was 348 miles out of the bumper to bumper warranty, but I had purchased a 7-year 100,000 mile extended powertrain warranty. I figured it would be covered, as the head is part of the engine, which is part of the power train, right?

The local Ford dealer where I broke down thought for sure it'd be covered. They offered to give me another vehicle to continue on my vacation and I could pick up my truck on the way back through. Sounded good. But I thought, for good measure, I'd better call the warranty line (very expensive repair; replace the head => $3K + the rental car). They had some "weasle wording" in there that said it would cover any damage to the powertrain resulting from the failure of an internally lubricated part. So if the piston flys off the end of the rod and goes through the head, it'll be covered. But if the head itself is bad, not being an internally lubricated part, it's not covered. The guy on the phone said he didn't think they'd cover it.

The mechanic on duty said he'd seen 3-4 other Excursions do this, and a whole slew of F-150's. Turns out on the V10 it's the passenger side rearmost or next to rearmost plug. On the 4.6 and 5.4 V8's it's always the rearmost plug. On my V10 it was the next to rearmost passenger side plug. There was enough thread left in the head to put a new plug in, along with a new coil pack. He loc-tited the plug in to hold it the 4 hour drive back to my house. He said no way would he trust it to FL and back (broke in Richmond VA). I get home and call the dealership I bought it from (Keystone Ford in Greencastle, PA) and told them what happened. They weren't very postive. Said bring it up, the adjuster guy has to look at it. I told them the plug had been loc-tited in with medium grade loc tite; if they pull the plug, heat it up first to soften the loc tite so as not to wreck the rest of the threads (all three of them).

Turned out the extended warranty wasn't through Ford as they led me to believe when I'd bought the thing, but rather through some third party outfit.

The "adjuster" guy came to look at my Excursion to pass judgement of if the extended warranty would cover it. He said no way. He'd seen 30 of them do this and even more of the 5.4 V8's. He said it was a known defect and they wouldn't cover it. He also said Ford won't own up to it and has shafted thousands of people. Literally, not hundreds but thousands. He said the 4.6's for some reason don't seem to blow as often. I believe it has to do with the cooling of the engine, and that rear passenger side corner seems to run hotter than the rest.

However, the real reason it happened is that Ford designed the Triton head such that it's casting is threaded to only about 40-50% of the thickness where the plug threads in. It's all over the internet, I discovered after the fact. There's like 7 threads holding the plug in. If you look at a Triton plug, it's solid shank down at least half way and then threads. Looking at a plug that goes into my old V6 Thunderbird, it's the same shank length but threaded the whole way. That spreads the load out over a greater area and allows it to hold much better.

Well, the dealership never bothered to heat the plug (easy enough to do, you get the socket hot first, then slip it over the plug and let it sit there ten minutes or so before unscrewing) and they destroyed the rest of the threads pulling it out. I'd driven it five hours up there without problem. They then refused to cover the failed head, they refused to accept any responsiblity for trashing what was left of the threads, they even refused to tow the wreck back to my house (as there was no way I was going to pay $3000 to have them put on another head of the same bad design).

I wound up borrowing a trailer from a friend who races dirt track. We bent the frame on his trailer hauling the 7000lb Excursion on it but got it home with my dad's Dodge diesel. Then had to fix the race car trailer

This is so common a failure that Timesert has a complete repair kit just for it. The tools are specially made to do the repair as the engine sits in the vehicle. (Another "plus" of the Excursion is that you have to lift the body off the frame to get the head off. No kidding! I had two Ford mechanics tell me this. Another Better Idea...) The Timesert threaded fastener is how Ford should have built the engine in the first place. It's a coated steel fastener (far superior to a helicoil, more like a bolt that is drilled and tapped on the inside as well as the outside) that has a hat shaped seat on one end, is of much larger diameter than the original plug hole. You ream out the blown plug hole, retap it the whole depth to take this large fastener and also cut a seat groove. You use permanent loctite and run this fastener in and torque it to some value like 20 ft-lbs or so. It projects into the combustion chamber some fraction of an inch. You then run a mandrel through it that expands the combustion side of the insert out so that it's locked in top and bottom, almost like a rivet. The hardened steel insert is threaded on the inside to exactly match the Triton plug configuration. It spreads the loads into the soft aluminum of the head much better as it's over a much larger area. And the steel spark plug threads into steel, so there's a much stronger connection there. That fixed the vehicle properly.

I was so furious over this that I immediately got rid of the Excursion. (The guy who bought it is happily driving it now two years later and seems thrilled by it; he'll probably never have a problem with it). I, on the other hand, will never buy a Ford product again. I could overlook the incident, mechanisms break, but Ford should have stood behind the product. They ran me around for three weeks, ruined my vacation, and in the end never did stand behind the product. If they had just told me up front they wouldn't cover it, or the truck had 150,000 miles on it, OK, I'd have just fixed it and went about my business. But I"d paid big bucks for that truck and big bucks for the 100,000 mile powertrain "warranty". They strung me on for three weeks and in the end left me high and dry.

I now drive a Dodge diesel and have had no problems of any kind. I've also got a real 100,000 mile warranty.

Anyway, my advice on a tow vehicle is do NOT buy something with a Triton series engine in it.
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Old 10-14-2005, 01:50 PM   #19
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Sorry to hear of you Triton problems! The "heads up" is just in time! I have a brother-in-law who was just about to buy one. I'll pass this on to him.
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Old 10-14-2005, 02:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 59toaster
The New Duramax is a wonderful motor and the Allison is a heck of a transmission. Not much bad has been surfacing on them lately. They had some new product blues when they first came out but it looks resolved.
FYI..... they have done another performance boost on the Duramax. The 2006 has an RPO code of LBZ...it has 360hp/650 torque up from 310hp/605 torque. The LLY is suppose to be discontinued in late fall and the LBZ availible at the same time the LLY goes bye bye.
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