The modern 1/2 versus the vintage 3/4 ton

[newroswell]

wow. very cool. If you park it next to the Titan, post a shot of that just for reference!

[hampstead38]

I need to wash the bird crap off the Titan before I take any pictures.

As for this thread, we've kind of wandered away from the original intent. As I go through this project, I'm going to learn the old 3/4 ton D200 inside and out. I've had the Titan as my daily driver (and tow vehicle) for five years. Once I get to the point of actually pulling the Overlander behind the D200, I'll be able to talk in a more informed manner about the differences between a vintage 3/4 ton and a modern 1/2 ton. But as we used to say in the Navy, there is "no doubt in my military mind," that the modern 1/2 ton pickup pulls better, stops better, handles better and is more safe than any "stock" vintage 3/4 ton truck.

If, as an Airstream community, we're going to get behind (or pass because they are so slow) vintage tow vehicles towing vintage trailers... then maybe we can find a bit more common ground in the recurrent 1/2 ton versus 3/4 ton debates?

[newroswell]

oh I wasn't trying to compare their towing abilities. I was only interested in the physical size of todays trucks vs a big truck from the past. I don't see many good old trucks out here that haven't been slammed or chopped in some way. Shame.

[Gene]

It's been about 3 weeks since the Dodge arrived.

Any news now that you've had some time with it?

And just what color is that?

Gene

[hampstead38]

One word, Gene: "houseguests."

For an "east coast" truck, it is in pretty good shape. I'll have to replace the floor pans and rocker panels which is pretty standard. The bed can be saved, but it will require some work. Everything electrical works down to the cigarette lighter. The 318 poly runs strong, but I'll build a second engine and do swap. The four-speed manual transmission feels fine. The frame is solid, though the surface rust cries out, "POR-15" to me.

The "wandering" feels like the king pins are shot. Since I don't have a hydraulic press in the micro-shop and I don't feel like spending three days banging on kingpins, I'll find someone who has a press. It's driveable, but far from comfortable. I've been nosing around for garage space to get the old truck under roof, but nothing yet. I've done some minor things, but nothing too strenuous yet.

The original color is the same as my old '65 Dodge... turf green. The guy who painted it picked a slightly darker shade. It's not a bad color, but it's a lousy paint job. The body work is strictly amateur with some heavy bondo in a few places. Ah, but the headlight rings are aluminum... and they can be polished to match the AS. Woo-hoo!

The old "C" hitch is welding to the frame. I need to grind it out and get the square receiver hitch bolted in... after I have a shop magnaflux it for cracks and check all of the welds.

My general sense is that the Overlander will look pretty good hitched up to the Dodge... but both projects are along way from "showtime." Then again, so am I. Thanks for asking, Gene. I'm working on getting a website up. I'll try to get it done this month and you can track my mechanical foibles there.

I would ask you about your Toyota and Airstream... but I am sure they both are perfect.

[Gene]

Toyota perfect, Airstream, well, usual QC stuff. Still waiting for Airstream Marketing to respond.

I kind of remember the wandering front end long ago girlfriend's truck had, so even when it was only 15 years old, the front end needed help. I guess turf green, well oxidized, describes the color of hers too. And I remember it was damned uncomfortable. It was a work truck, not a traveling truck. Fun to drive, but so's a D9, and I wouldn't want to take either cross country.

Would it be sinful to put in nice comfy bucket seats to replace the bench seat?

Gene

[hampstead38]

If we use "Ed" as our tow vehicle, there will need to be a few creature comforts including bucket seats and air conditioning. We'll soundproof the cab (as much as possible) and add a satellite radio system with good speakers.

I'll need to fabricate some seat mounts for newer buckets. It shouldn't be too tough. I also think we would impose a 200 mile-per-day limit for traveling. As comfortable as one could make the cab, it's not going to be a Cadillac (or what used to be a Cadillac).

I'm not surprised to hear the Toyota is perfect. Great truck. As for the Airstream, what a shame that a travel trailer of that cost has lousy QC issues. Perhaps I'm biased but I expect very little out of anything called "marketing" or "human resources."

For your viewing pleasure... turf green, pre-oxidation.

http://www.sweptline.com/tech/paintchips.jpg

[slowmover]

As one who recently used as his daily driver a '71 Chrysler I'd opt for the 383 engine with good heads Hughes Engines, a cam with a lot of lift under the curve (consult with HUGHES ENGINES; Hughes Engines), a "built" Loadflite AT (better, a 518 rebuilt with solid internals born of the Cummins engines 727-derived auto trans with OD), and gearing around 3.2 to 3.3. A 742-case 8.75 axle unless you can source a full-float Dana 60.

A Carter Thermoquad set up for your engine/cam/gearing/weight (a 1972 intake with internal EGR; yes, it would help),http://www.thermoquads.com/ RamchargerCentral.Com - Thermoquad guide

as would a heated air intake. (The combination of heated intake manifold crossover and heated air intake is to keep air temps at or slightly above 115F; a constant that can be tuned to help avoid pre-ignition).

The carb should be mounted on a phenolic resin 4-hole spacer with a HOLLEY 108-70 heat shield as well (MOROSO 64941)

and an MSD All-in-One distributor plus cabling.

Etc, etc.

The best all-around discussion in a single article I have ever read for building a Mopar tow engine (general philosophy of) is by guru Richard Ehrenberg, in Mopar Action magazine:

Small Block Build-Up: Tow ‘N’Go-Mopar Tech Special 1996 Vol 3, Num 2

More here: E-berg is very very good at Mopar electrical and all kinds of tuning

Mopar Action pages at Allpar

Copy generic info asap.

[hampstead38]

Well, Rednax, it seems someone knows his Mopar.

Gary Pavlovich is the expert on 318 poly. He thinks I can build a 400 ft/lb motor without going the stroker/radical cam route. The four-barrel intake manifold for the poly is uncommon, bordering on rare. Headers can be obtaining relatively easily. There's no replacment for displacement... but I really don't need something that going to smoke the tires. My primary concern is an engine with plenty of low end torque that pulls the Overlander without breathing hard or running hot. By the way, if you know how I can get a copy of the Ehlenberg article, let me know.

As for the tranny, I have the 435 four-speed and what now looks like a 4.10 rear. I can pull stumps in "granny gear." I appreciate the thought on the 727, but here's my counter-thought. I'm still working out how to upgrade to front disks, but braking is always a concern. With the manual transmission, I can use "compression braking" rather liberally... and heat is less an issue with the manual than the auto. I also would like to keep the cost of the tranny less than the total truck.

In the grand scheme of things, the motor/transmission/rear will come last. I'm trying to get "Ed" under roof so I can do some rust removal, metal repairs. I'll focus on brakes, suspension, steering and overall "driveability." The poly runs fine right now. I'd like to keep the truck mobile and build another motor "on the side." Then, when I feel froggy, I can do a clean swap.

Thanks for all the thoughts. If you are ever in my neck of the woods and want to turn wrenches, the door is always open.

[hampstead38]

Nax,

Good lead on the 383. It seems like there's much more aftermarket support for the 383 than for the 318 poly. I'm looking around for a block to build.

[slowmover]

Here are suppliers I have used and recommend (Etc):

Dodge / Chrysler / Plymouth Springs - Eaton Detroit Spring
http://www.eatonsprings.com/57-93Dod...ationGuide.pdf
ML-2071 LOOKS GOOD for a tow truck

http://www.eatonsprings.com/SpringTech101.pdf

Schumacher Creative Services
B/RB Truck Kit
(and call about their Tri-Y headers)(be great with a pair of Flowmaster 50's or Aeroturbine 4040XL and an X crossover; 2.5 to muffler; 2.0" after, full-length)


Bilstein - KYB - Rancho - Monroe - Edelbrock Automotive Truck Shocks and Struts - Shockwarehouse.com

http://www.addco.net/aftermarket.htm

A donor truck may be easiset
`72-up Dodge Truck IFS:'61-'71 Dodge Truck Website

http://tallahassee.en.craigslist.org...317483062.html


727 to 518 swap
RamchargerCentral.Com - A-518 Overdrive swap - Big Block

Big Block Dodge Truck Installation Power Brake Boosters

The forum on MOPARTS is the place to go, IMO, for info on building motors and trans, not necessarily race motors. The depth of experience is astounding.

moparts: Viewing forum: Moparts Question and Answer

While I understand the desire to use the V8-318 polysphere (it was used in the early TRAVCO motorhomes among others; around 13K gross) I would want to set up rear gears/tire height/GCWR quite carefully. If an OD man trans can be fitted, that would be a decided cool factor.

[crispyboy]

Hamp - I like your old pickup - it has real class and I'm a Dodge fan. My grandpa and grandma used a 1968 Dodge Polara station wagon 383 engine to pull their travel trailer all over the country.
This is one upgrade that I would highly recommend. On my Jeep Grand Wagoneer I have changed the old style radiator (brass tanks and vertical tubes) to an aluminum cross flow radiator with a high flow thermostat. Last fall I took the Wagoneer and Airstream through the West Virginia mountains. My temperature gauge didn't get past 215 degrees and immediately cooled down to the 195 thermostat setting after cresting the hill. I was impressed. This change is worthwhile.

[hampstead38]

Thanks, Rednax, for all of the information. And Crispy, for the advice on the radiator.

I have a handshake deal on a 383 out of a '66 Chrysler Newport. The engine is complete and runs with (reportedly) 60k on it. I figure on a lazy rebuild over the winter with a focus on durability and torque. The stock 383 pushes around 335 hp. It wouldn't be hard to bump that up by upgrading the carb, intake manifold and exhaust system. Breathing easier (in and out) almost always helps.

On the cooling front, I'll go with a huge upgrade on the radiator and a high volume water pump. I had to laugh... one guy posted that he was having trouble running hot with an old Sweptline, so he plumbed in a 12 gallon tank in addition to the radiator for cooling. The aluminum crossflow radiator is a good upgrade.

[slowmover]

You can figure that motor at more around 225 HP at the rear wheels, maybe 300 at flywheel if it still has good compression. Only the optional 4V engine had 335HP; it also had a hotter cam and a lot more compression. The stock 2V was really more like 200HP, 300TQ. Don't be swayed by these numbers, none of them mean much. I've seen okay 440 rebuilds for big cars that only put 250HP to the rear wheels but I wouldn't have changed a thing: smooth, fast and economical for a big car at a low price.

Be sure to post the desire on Moparts. I spent years assembling info on making an economical torque motor (stuff like backcutting valves and using a 30-degree face/seat) with a cam appropriate to the work intended. There really are some cams designed for Chryslers not copied from Chev patterns and it is important to find them. The factory .430 cam has low overlap (around 30-degrees) and is a beginning point of comparison. The .458 cam has quite a lot of overlap, more like 60-degrees. Etc. The Moparts board can be a great help on what cam, (Hughes, Erson, Racer Brown, etc).

The compression ratio on a '66 car is a little high. The pistons on Chryslers tend to be heavy, and the quench height needs to be tightened as much as possible to avoid detonation. Consider a piston set.

The intake manifold is really not the problem on Chryslers. Leave it stock if you don't go with a Thermoquad. An AFB is really a junker carb by design (power, mainly economy; it's crude, but an AVS is a step in the right direction).

There are some specialty radiator manufacturers who can fit that truck. The stock exhaust manifolds are good thru 1800 rpm or so, the HP cast iron manifolds maybe 2300 rpm, but, really, a good set of HD full-length headers is the way to go to really tune that thing.

[hampstead38]

Thanks for the advice. I'll ask about cams. I'm thinking something pretty mild. If I'm going to pick up performance, it will be in the carb and the headers. I'll swap the old distributer out for electronic ignition. I can sneak in some other upgrades like a high volume oil pump, high volume water pump, electric fan, etc. I like keeping the engine running cool and breathing easy.

The radiator isn't a huge issue in that I can fabricate a new mounting set up. The existing radiator "box" is a little smallish. I'd also like to add some oil capacity... maybe throw on an oil cooler. We'll see how things go... and how my wallet is holding up.

[hampstead38]

I wanted to add a thought here. I think one of the issues of "vintage" versus "modern" is the ability to have a sense of mastery over one's domain. I'm barely a shadetree mechanic, but I look under the hood of the D200 and I understand how things work. A modern truck... hey, just plug it into the computer. I'm going with the same principle with the Overlander. While I have an outside shop doing the frame and floor work (I can't weld for squat), I'll do all of the "system" works. If it does in, I'll know what it does and how it works.

While I celebrate the advances in technology (and enjoy the comforts of a modern truck or travel trailer), there is something I don't like about owning a "black box." I may not actually fix everything... but I want to feel as if I could if I had the time and inclination. The '66 will never be as comfortable, powerful or arguably safe as a modern 3/4 ton truck with all of the bells and whistles. But for me, the modern truck or even an Airstream, is more of a commodity... something I can use and enjoy, but without any emotional attachment.

Vintage, I think, is more about a feeling than about practicality.

[rangebowdrie]

Know exactly how you feel. With my old '80 Chev 3/4, 4x4, I felt that I could do anything needed to keep it going.
It was a real piece of "machinery", with levers, and linkages for controls. Under the hood, their did'nt seem to be enough wires for it to run, and their was all this space around the engine, which made it possible to actually "see and work", on anything.
Off road, it was just as capable as anything today, and with a manual trans, and duel batteries, I had much more trust in it, when I was miles, and miles from nowhere.

[lsmith]

If you want to spend some bucks in order to have a classic tow truck, there are numerous shops that can graft a front sub frame from say a 80's Buick Regal along with the rear end, add a late model V8 with automatic transmission after market a/c. We have a 1948 Cadillac with the above done, comfortable/dependable and classic

[hampstead38]

There are numerous improvements that can effectively make a vintage truck into a modern truck... IFS, disc brakes, power steering, etc. I wouldn't mind building a class truck with modern running gear for fun, but there's something wonderful about an old truck that is really an old truck.

[hampstead38]

I must have writtent the above post on a good day. There are certainly days when owning a vintage truck challenges the spirit... and the wallet.