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Old 12-02-2019, 02:18 PM   #301
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Grand Junction has had a Tesla charging station for three or four or more years. They are all over now and when they were installed here, I doubt there was anyone here with a Tesla.

Like Bob, I used to run out of gas when I was young. Like him, I got smarter and haven't for many decades. But when we tow in remote places, I bring extra gas and never have used it except one time in Montana. Our trips to Alaska never required using a gas can. Planning ahead means stopping more frequently than I did before travel trailers. Getting older means stopping more frequently too, so that is not a big problem. Soon, I expect if you call for road service when you are discharged, instead of a can with a couple of gallons of liquid fuel, they will be able to give you a charge that will get you to a plug—20 0r 50 miles perhaps. You can already buy batteries for that kind of emergency for liquid powered cars if your car battery dies.

I probably will never buy an electric truck to tow with because I will run out of towing years, though I doubt I have as many years left as Bob has. I don't know how big a gas or propane powered generator would have to be to charge the tow vehicle, but that may be an option, perhaps only in an emergency. For wintry climates, heat, wipers and resistance heaters in side mirrors, back windows and even windshields will take lots of amps and in stop and go driving on the Front Range or mountains of Colorado, electric vehicles will be a challenge. Even now a lot of electric cars can't make it to Denver from here.

But we built infrastructure for gas power vehicles pretty quickly over a century ago. We are building it for electric vehicles now and may well be ahead of where we were in 1900, but not quickly enough for the popular Franklin electric cars of that period.

Although the income equality discussion is over, if still interested learn the difference between "rents" and wages. "Rents" to economists mean passive income such as interest or other investments. Rents pay much better than wages.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:57 PM   #302
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Tesla has a unique plug but they have adaptor that can be used on none specific Tesla charge stations. At my home visitors with EVís of various makes including Tesla, are able to use the designated EV plug in the driveway without complaint.

Many of the public charge stations that are being installed around these parts are not actually being installed and/or sponsored by Tesla.
Tesla charging stations, however, will ONLY charge a Tesla (at least so far.) Perhaps now that not every Tesla comes with free Supercharger access, Tesla will allow superchargers to work through an adapter for other brands for paid charging.
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:11 PM   #303
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Agreed. Hey at least I mentioned Elon Musk in my Ďsocial commentaryí 😀

EVís are the wave of the (near) future, IMHO.
Hey, I mentioned EVs too! There are several Teslas at work and both owners bought them because they are cool. The rebate wasnít much of a motivation. One Guy has the SUV and the other a sedan. Ironically we canít charge at work (and I canít plug in my diesel).

My converted EV was primitive, with 800 lbs of lead acid batteries. I had 45 miles range and could hit 55 mph. Theyíve come a long way!
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Old 12-04-2019, 05:41 AM   #304
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So if i have a Tesla with a published 300 mile range, how far can I go on a 0 degree day with the heat on? How far can I go on a 100 degree day with the A/C on?
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:34 AM   #305
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It would be interesting to contrast this with EVs, or more specifically a Tesla.

If their current vehicles are any indication, there's literally no "starting" the car. The moment one walks up to the car, it's at the ready. It's at attention unlocking the door, tailoring every driver/seat/mirror/steering/driver aids/etc. adjustment to your profile, climate control full on, display and user interfaces on and ready for trip input. There's literally nothing to push, perhaps only to open the door and get seated, as everything is fully automated.

Stated another way, jump in and everything is ready to go. Hold brake and put it in drive or reverse and you're off.

It's part of Tesla's draw that much of the rest of the legacy industry doesn't understand, thinking it's just about an EV.

There's more to this too. The car feels almost "alive" as it's always prepped and ready. There's settings that allow it to precondition the climate, or even always condition the climate throughout the day. It's especially useful on hot summer days running errands, jumping into a already significantly cooled cabin and not have to wait for the A/C to catch up. Or to stop on a travel day, have lunch in the luxury of the large climate controlled cabin with youtube playing on the large central screen. No guilt with the vehicle belching fumes and heat from underneath.

One of the revelations in owning an EV is the utter lack of heat and fumes while the car is in operation, especially on hot days. Something one wouldn't even question until the epiphany when it's not there.

For pet owners, there's dog mode. No more worries about one's pet as there's a mode to keep Fido happy and comfortable while the owner is away. Especially useful when one is not at hookups with the RV.

Where have you been? I also have a diesel truck. When I touch the door handle, the vehicle unlocks, and the seat / mirrors / steering column / pedals automatically set themselves to my profile. I can remotely start the truck to "precondition" the climate by pressing a button. If I want to do it earlier, I can do it via my cell phone app for the truck. Once in the truck, I seat myself, push the brake pedal...yes, I have to press the engine start button once even though the engine is already running...put the truck in Drive and away I go. Really, it's not different than the Tesla at all other than hearing the reassuring sound of the diesel idling.



Oh, and by the way...I eat lunch in my vehicle all the time with the A/C or heat blasting and feel ZERO guilt for the "fumes and heat" belching out from under it.



Most of you fine folks would become instant vegetarians if you actually watched a live cow be killed by shooting a bolt through it's brain, and then watching the process of butchering it and turning it into saleable meat. You'd feel bad for the animal and horribly guilty by your eating it being the reason it needed to die. Yet since we don't SEE this ugly process, we think nothing of having a great hamburger at a cookout any time we want.



Likewise, apparently you feel no guilt in running your HVAC in your electric Tesla because you don't "see" the "fumes and heat" that are "belching" out form under your car. But of course they are there, in the form of the power plant that is producing the electricity you stored in your car's battery to power the HVAC.



Here's your wake up call when you are feeling so Green in your Tesla having lunch with the A/C blasting:


From 2018 data:
64% of all electricity is still generated from fossil fuels
19% of all electricity is generated from nuclear fission
17% of all electricity is generated from renewables - but even that consists of 2% biomass, or wood chips, landfill waste, etc. The largest source of renewables are hydro and wind. Solar is only 1.5%.



So in all likelihood your comfortable, guilt-free lunch was made possible by a fossil-fuel power plant, belching massive amounts of CO2 and other harmful particulate and heat into the sky. As more people buy EVs, the amount of power being made by fossil fuel is actually going to rise, since it is the cheapest source of power.



Meanwhile, my diesel pickup is equipped with all the latest emissions controls. Precision high pressure fuel injection, cooled EGR, diesel oxidation catalyst, selective catalyst reductant system, diesel particulate filter, and ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel. Diesel engines produce significantly less CO2 than a gas engine; however they produce much more NOx. The SCR system essentially eliminates NOx.



I'll stick with what works very well, thanks.
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Old 12-04-2019, 08:56 AM   #306
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So if i have a Tesla with a published 300-mile range, how far can I go on a 0-degree day with the heat on? How far can I go on a 100-degree day with the A/C on?
Believe it or not, it is almost insignificant. We do not see any change in our range or driving habits. It is not a factor.

The argument that fossil fuels are used to make electricity may be true, but we use very little "other" fossil fuels in our Model 3. No oil changes, no radiator fluids, very little brake fluids (brake is used very little), no brake pads almost the life of the car, no air filters, no catalytic converters, mufflers, tailpipe emissions, and the list goes on.

We also pay double the road tax than a fossil fuel car pays so you can't even say we are not paying our fair share of road repair.

Something else about an electric car that may not have been brought up here, they are so much fun to drive!!!
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:28 AM   #307
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Believe it or not, it is almost insignificant. We do not see any change in our range or driving habits. It is not a factor.

The argument that fossil fuels are used to make electricity may be true, but we use very little "other" fossil fuels in our Model 3. No oil changes, no radiator fluids, very little brake fluids (brake is used very little), no brake pads almost the life of the car, no air filters, no catalytic converters, mufflers, tailpipe emissions, and the list goes on.

We also pay double the road tax than a fossil fuel car pays so you can't even say we are not paying our fair share of road repair.

Something else about an electric car that may not have been brought up here, they are so much fun to drive!!!
How does low ambient temperature affect the battery performance? Doesn't that cut back on your range?

If I get one it will be because of its high toy value and also because of its low maintenance. I won't get one for cost reasons since it is more expensive and I won't get one for environmental reasons since it is clear to me that we need more, not less, CO2 in the atmosphere.
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Old 12-04-2019, 10:29 AM   #308
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With a battery powered tow vehicle, does one rent a second campsite to use it's 50 amp plug, or somehow share the single campsites plug? Say, for example, can the power pedestal provide a full 30 amps to the camper to run AC/microwave etc and also also at the same time provide full 50 amp power to the electric truck?

Lastly, is it reasonable to expect that a 50 amp 120 volt will fill a nearly exhausted electric truck battery overnight?
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Old 12-04-2019, 10:49 AM   #309
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Where have you been? I also have a diesel truck. When I touch the door handle, the vehicle unlocks, and the seat / mirrors / steering column / pedals automatically set themselves to my profile. I can remotely start the truck to "precondition" the climate by pressing a button. If I want to do it earlier, I can do it via my cell phone app for the truck. Once in the truck, I seat myself, push the brake pedal...yes, I have to press the engine start button once even though the engine is already running...put the truck in Drive and away I go. Really, it's not different than the Tesla at all other than hearing the reassuring sound of the diesel idling.



Oh, and by the way...I eat lunch in my vehicle all the time with the A/C or heat blasting and feel ZERO guilt for the "fumes and heat" belching out from under it.



Most of you fine folks would become instant vegetarians if you actually watched a live cow be killed by shooting a bolt through it's brain, and then watching the process of butchering it and turning it into saleable meat. You'd feel bad for the animal and horribly guilty by your eating it being the reason it needed to die. Yet since we don't SEE this ugly process, we think nothing of having a great hamburger at a cookout any time we want.



Likewise, apparently you feel no guilt in running your HVAC in your electric Tesla because you don't "see" the "fumes and heat" that are "belching" out form under your car. But of course they are there, in the form of the power plant that is producing the electricity you stored in your car's battery to power the HVAC.



Here's your wake up call when you are feeling so Green in your Tesla having lunch with the A/C blasting:


From 2018 data:
64% of all electricity is still generated from fossil fuels
19% of all electricity is generated from nuclear fission
17% of all electricity is generated from renewables - but even that consists of 2% biomass, or wood chips, landfill waste, etc. The largest source of renewables are hydro and wind. Solar is only 1.5%.



So in all likelihood your comfortable, guilt-free lunch was made possible by a fossil-fuel power plant, belching massive amounts of CO2 and other harmful particulate and heat into the sky. As more people buy EVs, the amount of power being made by fossil fuel is actually going to rise, since it is the cheapest source of power.



Meanwhile, my diesel pickup is equipped with all the latest emissions controls. Precision high pressure fuel injection, cooled EGR, diesel oxidation catalyst, selective catalyst reductant system, diesel particulate filter, and ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel. Diesel engines produce significantly less CO2 than a gas engine; however they produce much more NOx. The SCR system essentially eliminates NOx.



I'll stick with what works very well, thanks.
Where have I been? I've had a taste of the future thank you. I'm glad you have a nice vehicle with some fine touches. I've had all of that in my various ICE vehicles too, including 90% of it back in '09 in my Lexus. Frankly, that's missing the point. In an EV, none of that functionality is predicated on starting an ICE engine. Or running an ICE engine. It is available all the time without thinking about starting the car either inside or remotely.

All that emissions equipment you listed, superfluous to an EV. No weight, packaging or mechanical complexity, reliability, maintenance or repair, and smog test that come with those types of ancillary systems. Of which do no useful function other than to support a combustion engine that likes to pass gas from a heavy dinosaur meal. As I said, it's an epiphany when one has owned an EV.

If you're interested in discussing deeper game changers Tesla brings...

Key or key fob not necessary. I often forget to get the keys to my ICE cars, as my Tesla doesn't even need a key. So long as I have my cell phone with me as I always do. Lock and unlock? I've forgotten to do that with my traditional cars too, as the Tesla does all that for me the moment I walk up or walk away.

Brake pedal? One can literally drive the car without ever touching that as Tesla's apply significant regen braking when releasing the gas pedal. Then it will blend brake automatically to a chauffer quality full stop, and hold the vehicle there, hill or not, without touching anything.

That's not even touching on adaptive cruise control, autosteer, autopilot, future Full Self Driving FSD. I could tell you more but let me sip some coffee next to my pet rock for a bit. While the solar above shades me from the sun.
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Old 12-04-2019, 10:54 AM   #310
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Believe it or not, it is almost insignificant. We do not see any change in our range or driving habits. It is not a factor.......

........
Something else about an electric car that may not have been brought up here, they are so much fun to drive!!!
Tesla Vehicles are pretty nice, but theyíre not magic. It takes a good bit of energy to heat or cool a car in normal summer/winter temps. That energy has to come from your batteries and will affect your range.

I agree theyíre fun to drive because of the instant torque you get with electric motors.
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Old 12-04-2019, 11:46 AM   #311
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Tesla Vehicles are pretty nice, but theyíre not magic. It takes a good bit of energy to heat or cool a car in normal summer/winter temps. That energy has to come from your batteries and will affect your range.

I agree theyíre fun to drive because of the instant torque you get with electric motors.
Wait, the guy who drives one just said itís insignificant. Do you have one also?
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Old 12-04-2019, 02:08 PM   #312
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Just an idea, and one which I've not really thought through, but would there be some merit to creating a pure EV sub forum of the Tow vehicle forum?

I'm very enthusiastic about the Tesla, and I'm sure that there are many others who are beginning to think about it too. Massive batteries with a 110 outlet are just crying out for a trailer mini split AC, huge payload rating, air suspension, silent start up at the camp ground, lightning fast, free power if solar at home, built in tonneau and probably a bunch of other cool features that will get rolled out.

My interest is in the Tesla truck much more so than any interest I may have of using Airforums as a medium for changing anyone else's mind about climate change or basic human behavior.
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Old 12-04-2019, 04:19 PM   #313
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Wait, the guy who drives one just said it’s insignificant. Do you have one also?
My daughter had an EV and yes, running heat or a/c impacts range, significantly.

I’ve been driving a gas-electric hybrid vehicle for the past 10 years. The A/C runs off of the battery. I can tell you that, stopped in traffic with the A/C running you can see the battery charge being pulled down and my overall gas mileage will suffer. Same driving conditions: much better gas mileage in mild weather than hot weather.

It’s also common sense. It takes energy, and lots of it to cool a car on a hot 90 deg Atlanta day.
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:41 PM   #314
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My daughter had an EV and yes, running heat or a/c impacts range, significantly.

Iíve been driving a gas-electric hybrid vehicle for the past 10 years. The A/C runs off of the battery. I can tell you that, stopped in traffic with the A/C running you can see the battery charge being pulled down and my overall gas mileage will suffer. Same driving conditions: much better gas mileage in mild weather than hot weather.

Itís also common sense. It takes energy, and lots of it to cool a car on a hot 90 deg Atlanta day.
The range, even with AC or heat, is well within the average commute, even with side trips. Ranges are up to 300 miles or more now. 10 years ago it was less than 100. Things change.
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:43 PM   #315
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Just an idea, and one which I've not really thought through, but would there be some merit to creating a pure EV sub forum of the Tow vehicle forum?

I'm very enthusiastic about the Tesla, and I'm sure that there are many others who are beginning to think about it too. Massive batteries with a 110 outlet are just crying out for a trailer mini split AC, huge payload rating, air suspension, silent start up at the camp ground, lightning fast, free power if solar at home, built in tonneau and probably a bunch of other cool features that will get rolled out.

My interest is in the Tesla truck much more so than any interest I may have of using Airforums as a medium for changing anyone else's mind about climate change or basic human behavior.
I donít think a separate forum is needed. Itís a fun discussion as long as you donít get too worked up. The only downside is the general lack of actual firsthand knowledge of EVs but thatís pretty easy to sort out.
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:59 PM   #316
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The range, even with AC or heat, is well within the average commute, even with side trips. Ranges are up to 300 miles or more now. 10 years ago it was less than 100. Things change.
But, that was not the question asked. The question was what impact heat or AC had on range. The answer is, apparently, significant. Your answer was "insignificant" without specifying that the question you were ANSWERING was what the impact was ON YOUR COMMUTE. Of course, if your commute is 10 miles, it would have an insignificant impact on the commute. It would still have a significant impact on RANGE.


One problem when trying to have an actual discussion of issues (not just this issue) is the two sides talking past each other. They don't listen to each other and they don't answer each other's questions. They answer the question that they wanted to be asked rather than the question that was actually asked. And, I am not pointing to either side here. Both sides do it.

An example from another (related) discussion, not from the AirForums. I was reading a thread talking about carbon footprint. The point was made that a lot of hypocritical climate activists frequently fly on private planes. The response was long distance travel requires flying, and jet planes are relatively efficient in their carbon footprint. He completely ignored the whole point of PRIVATE planes vs commercial air. Without the second person LISTENING to the first, he gave a completely irrelevant answer. That scenario will never lead to understanding, much less agreement, between the sides.
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Old 12-04-2019, 08:11 PM   #317
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How does low ambient temperature affect the battery performance? Doesn't that cut back on your range?
It varies and can be significant with more extreme climates. In a gas car, it can be significant too. But EVs are opposite to gas cars in that they lose more efficiency in cold weather to heat vs A/C.

Batteries like to operate in about the same temperature as people. Even if one chooses not to climate control the interior, the batteries need some measure of heating/cooling.
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:16 PM   #318
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The range, even with AC or heat, is well within the average commute, even with side trips. Ranges are up to 300 miles or more now. 10 years ago it was less than 100. Things change.
No argument there. Please understand that Iím not arguing against EVís; I just want to inject a little realism into the discussion: running heat and A/C requires a good amount of energy and will impact range.

Iím sure as EV ranges improve, the range impact of heat/AC will become less and less significant.
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:25 PM   #319
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I’m sure as EV ranges improve, the range impact of heat/AC will become less and less significant.
From a practical point of view, in about 10 years of EV ownership, I've rarely ever had to make a conscious choice not to climate control due to range.
Perhaps a few times when I'm really cutting things close. About the same as I've done in my gas vehicle when I try to stretch to get to that next cheaper gas station.

Slowing down is much more significant of a strategy to stretch range. Something that works in both EV and ICE cars.

Interestingly, as heating uses more energy, every EV offers seat heaters, many times even in the rear seat positions, as it uses less energy than fully heating the cabin.
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Old Yesterday, 12:15 AM   #320
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Gas ?????

Hi, several times on this forum people have mentioned about the "GAS mileage" they get from their Diesel trucks; Now I just leaned that Teslas have a "GAS pedal".


I'm so confused.
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