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11-06-2008, 03:59 PM
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#1
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
St. Catharines
, South Western Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,367
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Suburbans, Escalades going to FWD!
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Airstreams..... The best towing trailers on the planet!
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11-06-2008, 04:40 PM
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#2
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Rivet Master
1968 28' Ambassador
Cedaredge
, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,542
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If you want to tow with a Burb, You better get it now... This is not good for towing.... Thats just gonna leave Nissan and Toyota...
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Jason
May you have at least one sunny day, and a soft chair to sit in..
2008 5.7 L V8 Sequoia
AIR # 31243
WBCCI # 6987
FOUR CORNERS UNIT
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11-06-2008, 04:46 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2014 25' Flying Cloud
Cuddebackville
, New York
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,333
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The article says this:
Quote:
The front-drive-based Lambda architecture has not been seen as the ideal platform for towing applications, but if the Suburban and Escalade ESV SUVs have been slated to move to the platform, GM has presumably overcome that problem.
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11-06-2008, 04:55 PM
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#4
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Aluminut
2004 25' Safari
.
, Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,477
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I'd have to agree, this is NOT good news if you plan to tow with these upcoming possible models. I can't see a unibody type vehicle be all that great of a solution, particularly when you get to the far higher hitch weights.
Bottom line, get your Burb now or soon....when these come, I can't see these new possible versions towing 10k lbs.
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11-06-2008, 05:10 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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I thought there were some reservations about whether the Lambda platform would be sturdy enough for the Trailblaxer/Envoy line, and now they want to mount a Suburban on it? Yur Kiddin'!
I think it may be a ploy to scare people into buying up the current unsold inventory of Burbs.
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11-06-2008, 06:36 PM
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#6
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Moderator
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
2012 23' FB Flying Cloud
2005 25' Safari
Santa Rosa Beach
, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,156
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A unibody, front wheel drive Suburban, what a travesty! That's about like Ford using the name Thunderbird for its new minivan.
Here the name "Suburban" is the longest continuously used model name in automotive history. It's a real shame that GM now wants to use this model name for a wannabe soccer mom baby SUV for the first time since 1935.
Maybe they can now introduce their new econo-turd microcar as the new Corvette.
Brian
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SuEllyn & Brian McCabe
WBCCI #3628 -- AIR #14872 -- TAC #FL-7
2015 FC 25' FB (Lucy) with ProPride
2020 Silverado 2500 (Vivian)
2023 Rivian R1T (Opal)
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11-06-2008, 07:34 PM
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#7
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Liquid Cooled
2017 27' Flying Cloud
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
near Indy
, Indiana
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 741
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I don't think it's a joke.
In fact, I'll be a little surprised if there are many towable RV's over 5000 lbs in 3-4 years time.
There's no need to panic, however, as this is not going to be far from where things were when Wally was still building them.
This woman, for example, has pulled a trailer around the world:
Rosie
When I say "pulled a trailer" I mean she ran, and pulled the trailer behind her. Amazing.
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11-06-2008, 07:42 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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It sounds just like the period from 1974-1979 when GM, Ford, and Chrysler were cobbling together some incredibly stupid platforms to respond to the first CAFE standards. Slapping together mismatched engines, transmissions and drivetrains.
Some of the worst vehicles ever built.
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11-06-2008, 08:06 PM
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#9
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Liquid Cooled
2017 27' Flying Cloud
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
near Indy
, Indiana
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markdoane
It sounds just like the period from 1974-1979 when GM, Ford, and Chrysler were cobbling together some incredibly stupid platforms to respond to the first CAFE standards. Slapping together mismatched engines, transmissions and drivetrains.
Some of the worst vehicles ever built.
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It wasn't (and isn't) just CAFE, as emissions requirements had a role too.
Both of those may be in play again, but some new things appear to be at work here.
First is the absolute bottom falling out of sales - Hummer was down something like sixty percent October vs Oct last year, and while I haven't looked through them, I'd assume the truck lines were all hammered pretty hard, as they have been since roughly mid-May.
Supposing the markup on trucks is normally fairly high, you can sell a number of cheap (cheaply made, rushed design) cars at cost, keep your CAFE numbers up and still show a profit.
But when the truck sales stop abruptly... you'll find you have tremendous inventory and supply problems (one 6000 pound truck by definition taking twice as much stuff as one 3000 pound car) - and not a soul among us is going to pay a premium for that cheap car from the last paragraph (the "CAFE Gimme" AKA the Aveo)
Now, and this is purely conjecture, run some forecast numbers... you can't afford to keep all the plants open that make trucks, so your forecast product mix has to have fewer trucks, which means you can't give the cars away any more, which means they have to be better cars and more capable of achieving some economy of scale. Better cars take some time, and I think they'll happen, but that does nothing for the economy of scale. So... you have to get more leverage out of your new large-premium crossover platform, the Lambda. Ergo, "Suburban" moves to Lambda.
It actually seems like a really interesting set of challenges. I think Lutz understands what they're up against. The hope I have for Wagoner is that my take on him is wrong, because I'm not sure he understands what a car is or ought to be. I think he thinks of them as refrigerators.
Big announcements tomorrow ... probably going to be very ugly for another year or so.
Must keep fingers crossed.
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11-07-2008, 05:15 AM
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#10
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
St. Catharines
, South Western Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSHED
I don't think it's a joke.
In fact, I'll be a little surprised if there are many towable RV's over 5000 lbs in 3-4 years time.
There's no need to panic, however, as this is not going to be far from where things were when Wally was still building them.
This woman, for example, has pulled a trailer around the world:
Rosie
When I say "pulled a trailer" I mean she ran, and pulled the trailer behind her. Amazing.
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Good post RedSHED! Thnxs. The Rosie towing the trailer story is amazing.
__________________
Airstreams..... The best towing trailers on the planet!
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11-07-2008, 09:19 AM
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#11
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2 Rivet Member
2005 30' Safari
2022 27' Globetrotter
River Forest
, Illinois
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 49
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I would guess that GM has not overcome the problem, but rather doesn’t see the need for heavy weight towing with these SUV lines, leaving the heavy towing requirements to pickup trucks.
In our small village, every other home seems to have a large SUV in the driveway. I know of only three people who tow something – another airstream owner and a horse trailer tower. The rest of these large SUV’s are used to cart children to/from school and soccer games. I am sure GM took this into account this type of usage when making their decision to change platforms.
If you look at the 2009 GMC Acadia tow rating, it will tow 5,200 pounds, enough for a pop-up trailer, small boat or a utility trailer. I suspect that the new Suburban will jump up a few more pounds of tow rating, but most likely not enough for a trailer like mine (6,000 + lbs.), with the safety margin I have grown to appreciate with my current Suburban (12,000 lbs tow rating).
It is reported that the current Suburban will be around until about 2014. My current Suburban will be ten years old at that point, ready for replacement with the last year of the body on frame model. Unless of course GM goes bankrupt before then….
__________________
2005 30 Bunkhouse
2012 Chevrolet Suburban 2500
Honda 2000
Air #99
WBCCI #8895 (Grandpa's number from the 1960's)
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11-07-2008, 09:56 AM
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#12
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Rivet Master
2007 23' Safari SE
Central
, Connecticut
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,652
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It's a stretch to say that an Acadia's 5200 lb tow rating is only good for a pop-up or a small utility trailer. That rating will tow an Airstream Sport easily or a new 20'er, nevermind larger vintage trailers.
That rating is also based on transmission cooling requirements (measured uphill in the desert at 55 mph), not the inherent stability of the unibody. Given the platform's pretty good handling capabilities already, GM could improve powertrain cooling and have a pretty good package. Still, it would be hard to see this having much more than a 7500 lb rating...but that's similar to an unibody Mercedes GL450.
As for the whole Europe little trailers, little cars thing - there are plenty of diesel SUVs in Europe that tow pretty hefty loads. (My British aunt-in-law's Kia Sorrento turbodiesel easily tows her horse trailer - it replaced a Discovery.) Plenty of pretty long trailers there too - but they're lighter.
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11-07-2008, 10:41 AM
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#13
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Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
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Airstreams are fat, porky and in need of a diet. Bring the weight down (such as Streamline used to do with metal cabinetry) and one will not need as much tow vehicle. My parents and grandparents used full-size and luxury cars (122" and 130" wheelbase with around 220 to 290 net HP) to pull 28' trailers all across US, Canada and Mexico.
Too bad about Suburban but there hasn't been a commercial need for one since the van lines were all improved in the 1970's, and crew cab pickups became available across the board.
A 7000-lb rating is all that is needed.
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11-07-2008, 10:46 AM
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#14
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Rivet Master
1985 27' Sovereign
Defiance
, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,254
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Hi RedShed. When you get that harness ready for your 31, don't forget to get a picture while your pulling it. Maybe you can replace the bicycle guy in Airstream lore.
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11-07-2008, 02:40 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
2019 27' Tommy Bahama
London
, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,343
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We have several customers towing with Buick Enclaves one with a 25' Front Bedroom the rest have 30-34's. To me it is a far superior chassis to tow with than the old fashioned truck chassis suburban. The body structure is like a brick with no rattles or squeeks in it.
This summer on the way to the Rally in PEI one of the units in our Group was a Enclave with a 99 34'. I drove it for 100 miles in Northern New Brunswick which has several 9% grades. It was so quiet you had to use cruise control to keep the speed reasonable. The 3.6 litre has a very wide powerband which combined with the 6 speed transmission gives excellent performance and better mileage than any of the other 4 rigs in our group. I also did a couple of test drives with it in PEI on very rough frost heaved roads the long suspension travel gave a smooth ride and excellent control. Other than the Porshe or the BMW X5 I would say it is the best handling SUV I have ever towed with but it rides better than the Porsche or BMW. And you can buy two for the same price.
Don who owns this particular Enclave is retired from GM and has been towing since 1973 with a couple of dozen different tow vehicles, everything from Suburbans and pick ups to sedans and vans. He feels this is the best tow vehicle he has used.
So don't panic there is a replacement for displacement.
Andy
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Andrew Thomson London, Ontario
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions." Tex Johnston, Boeing 707 test pilot
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11-07-2008, 06:34 PM
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#16
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Moderator
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
2012 23' FB Flying Cloud
2005 25' Safari
Santa Rosa Beach
, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,156
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I plan to take our Lucy everywhere in this country that we want to go being pulled by our big Suburbans. If Suburbans turn into econo-turds, we'll move on to a pick-up.
Brian
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SuEllyn & Brian McCabe
WBCCI #3628 -- AIR #14872 -- TAC #FL-7
2015 FC 25' FB (Lucy) with ProPride
2020 Silverado 2500 (Vivian)
2023 Rivian R1T (Opal)
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11-08-2008, 12:30 AM
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#17
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Rivet Master
1975 Argosy 26
1963 24' Tradewind
Seattle
, Washington
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,341
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hmmm.... that Buick doesn't look half bad up there. Andrew, is there a towing test report on the Buick (and cheaper Chevy) around?
Care to report about the mileage? Might just work for my 25' Argosy. Short rear overhang, I'll look into the wheelbase.
Marc
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11-08-2008, 07:35 AM
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#18
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
2019 27' Tommy Bahama
London
, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,343
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Hi Marc
I have a copy of the article from RV lifestyle magazine, if you would like to send my your email by PM I can send it to you. I think it would be kind of long to post. I would like to say I wrote it but it is mainly just a copy of an E mail from a customer that tows with one. It will easily tow either of your Airstreams. Depending on which engine you have the performance will be equivilant to your Van but the ride will way smoooother.
Andy
__________________
Andrew Thomson London, Ontario
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions." Tex Johnston, Boeing 707 test pilot
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11-08-2008, 08:13 AM
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#19
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
St. Catharines
, South Western Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T
It was so quiet you had to use cruise control to keep the speed reasonable.
So don't panic there is a replacement for displacement.
Andy
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This is one positive feature we too noticed after towing with the V6 sedan. I recall coming back from Watkins Glen a couple years ago on HWY 90. We kept creeping up to 70 MPH. Had to put the cruise on to keep it down where we wanted it. We also noticed there was no engine noise. You could hear some road noise from the tires and some wind noise but no engine noise in 4th gear at 2,700 RPM.
__________________
Airstreams..... The best towing trailers on the planet!
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11-09-2008, 09:51 AM
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#20
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Rivet Master
2005 39' Land Yacht 390 XL 396
Common Sense
, Texas
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,319
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With the days of cheap fuel behind us, we are all looking for ways to conserve, and even more so in the future, and I don't believe many of the youngsters of today will be buying 10,000 pound RV's and the appropriate tow vehicles when they get to be retirement age.
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Regards,
Steve
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