Smaller Tow Vehicles

[rluhr]

Could be! (I don't know sailing very well.) The gist of the argument is that some people think an airplane turning into the wind will be less inclined to stall than an airplane turning into a tailwind. Or is it the other way around?

Anyway, it's one of those endless debates that turns out to be unprovable no matter which position you endorse. Kind of like this one!

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by rluhr

Chuck, I hope you're not suggesting that a truck that can't stop itself in less than 155 ft is going to perform better when loaded?

No. I'm suggesting that a 3/4 burb will stop itself and a 10k lb brake-less trailer faster than a geo metro with the same brake-less trailer.

Originally Posted by rluhr

Yes, the truck has bigger brakes, but they are less efficient relative to the load. The extra capacity of the brakes is already being used to stop the heavier weight of the truck.

Not all of it. and due to their size, adding extra weight will affect them at a slower rate than those on a car. Its a matter of percentages. the performance "envelope" on a smaller vehicle is going to be narrower than that of a larger vehicle, even if they are proportionally the same. (and I'm not certain that they are). take 1000lbs and put it in the back of a burban and a geo. both will take longer to stop than if they were empty, but the geo's performance will be more significantly impacted. it'll still stop shorter than the burban. but if you keep adding weight, the lines will eventually cross. the geo's brakes will overheat and fail, and start going in the opposite direction, before the burban is "overloaded".

Originally Posted by rluhr

Talking about what might happen if you put a huge load on a vehicle is a rhetorical tool to avoid the obvious point: none of these vehicles will stop well if the trailer brakes fail.

Actually, my combo did pretty well when my brake controller failed last month. (did I mention that my brake controller failed? ) It was quite some time before I even noticed. The load was within the truck's design limits.

Originally Posted by rluhr

But you readily assume that a smaller truck with more efficient brakes will not be "safe". How does that logic work?

They're only more efficient if they're operating within their design limits. Small vehicles do "everything" more efficiently than large vehicles...most of the time. But these things don't graph out in a straight line. they're almost always "on a curve". like the fact that your truck gets WAY better mileage than my truck...its smaller, and lighter, and that makes sense. But I strap a heavier trailer to a heavier truck, creating a combination that is much heavier than yours...and yet it gets better mpg than your rig when towing.

[RivetED]

I prefer a roll tack to a 'white-knuckled' jibe anyday!!!!!!!!!

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by rluhr

Could be! (I don't know sailing very well.) The gist of the argument is that some people think an airplane turning into the wind will be less inclined to stall than an airplane turning into a tailwind. Or is it the other way around?

Anyway, it's one of those endless debates that turns out to be unprovable no matter which position you endorse. Kind of like this one!

the wing will stall when it exceeds the critical angle of attack.





and really...a constant wind has no effect on the wing in flight; only on the ground. BUT...I could see how in a stiff wind, a pilot trying to turn around a fixed point on the ground might have a tendancy to overcompensate if turning into the wind, and then try and turn too sharply, thus causing the wing to exceed the critical angle of attack. but that's not the poor airplane's fault.

[Pahaska]

Originally Posted by rluhr

Could be! (I don't know sailing very well.) The gist of the argument is that some people think an airplane turning into the wind will be less inclined to stall than an airplane turning into a tailwind. Or is it the other way around?

Anyway, it's one of those endless debates that turns out to be unprovable no matter which position you endorse. Kind of like this one!

Take it from an old flight instructor and glider pilot, the only thing that turning upwind or downwind changes is the pilot's perception of how fast he is moving over the ground. Within the airmass, it doesn't make a difference.

[rluhr]

Hey, I totally agree with you John! But you wouldn't believe the endless debates I've heard on the subject. People get really heated up about it, too! You'd think airplanes were falling out of the sky daily because of this perceived problem.

The other aviation one I've heard is about climbing "on the step" -- but I forgot how that one goes.

[59toaster]

That 155ft braking quote on the Suburban I can guarnatee was a half ton. The drum brakes on a Half ton weight about 18lb each. The Brake drum on my 3/4 ton weighs nearly 60lb. Another reason I went bigger. Also Suburbans are equiped with load sensing brakes. Now the WD hitch will actully effect how well this works because it's lifting the rear of the truck up. The smart person could manualy adjust that and improve the braking.

Also GM ANTI LOCK BRAKES ARE CRAP! At least onthe trucks. I will not drive a GM with them active. I have unplugged the ECM on several company vans. Now the ECM is shared with the main ECU and till I find a way to deactivate it I will not drive one. Yes their are lawsuits to back up what I am saying.

It's single channel and as a result if you unload one rear wheel to the point it senses lock up it will back off the braking on all the brakes. I'm sure the Honda is is multi chanel. Each wheel is individually controlled and can acheive maximum braking without being effected by the other three.

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by Ed & Debbie

I prefer a roll tack to a 'white-knuckled' jibe anyday!!!!!!!!!

Now, Ed & Debbie... EVERY good sailor knows that when you jibe, you pull the mainsheet in amidships as the stern crosses the wind, then you let it back out on the windward side... no slam jibes here! Yeah, right...

Roger

[jschelle]

We have a 2004 19 foot Bambi that we tow with a 99 GMC Jimmy 4 Wheel drive four door with the tow package including the electronic gear ratio adjustment for towing. We are sized at the high end of the manufacturer's towing capacity with the Bambi, so we opted for a Hensley Arrow hitch. This also gives us an extra 12" between the Jimmy and the Bambi for the Kayak. We are able to do just fine with this combination. We track smoothly down the highway with no sway problems from logging trucks or tandem tractor trailers.

When when we are towing we are on our own time and not in a hurry, so we keep our speed between 55 and 60. There is a lot to see along the way as well as at our destinations. We like the smaller trailer and tow vehicle because it is just the two of us. We tow up and down the Cascades in Washington and through the hilly Olympic Pennsula.

We have had to make a couple of emergency stops on commuter congested I-405 in suburban Seattle. The rig handled just fine stopping in a straight line.

Unfortunately, we can only get out on the road for twenty to twenty five days a year (a two week outing with the rest long weekends). Consequently, gas mileage for all the commuter trips is a factor in our choice for a tow vehicle. Also parking in the city is a factor. This small combo works fine for us.

[Sav'h Steve]

"EVERY good sailor knows that when you jibe, you pull the mainsheet in amidships as the stern crosses the wind, then you let it back out on the windward side... no slam jibes here! Yeah, right... "

That's when you are watching.... What 'bout those times when you are sailing 'by the lee' downwind. Those will get you in the noggin

Glad to know we have some sailors mixed in with the pilots!!

Steve

[Sav'h Steve]

I've towed my old Globetrotter with a Grand Marquis and done OK.

But even when I tried to reposition my 25' with the Marquis, it just sank to the bottom and groaned.

My Expy did reasonably well on flat land towing the 25', but the semi's did set me over on the road enough to make it uncomfortable (esp when you weren't keeping a real close eye.)

But the 2500 Burb with the same Reese WD hitch really is much more stable. It still has Passenger rated tires on it.

Also I am quite convinced that higher tire pressure and LT tires add significantly to the mix keeping the "white knuckles" at bay.

Steve

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by Sav'h Steve

"EVERY good sailor knows that when you jibe, you pull the mainsheet in amidships as the stern crosses the wind, then you let it back out on the windward side... no slam jibes here! Yeah, right... "

That's when you are watching.... What 'bout those times when you are sailing 'by the lee' downwind. Those will get you in the noggin

Glad to know we have some sailors mixed in with the pilots!!

Steve

Roger

[armistjb]

RLUHR:

Thanks for your input.

I noticed that your signature indicates Northern Vermont. We love Vermont and have spent the last 20 summer seasons renting cottages in North Hero and Alburg on the shore of Lake Champlain. Before that we camped pretty well all over Vermont. It's a great place!

I'm not sure how we get from Small Tow Vehicles to piloting and sailing, but the posts are great and shows evryone is having fun.

Happy camping to all!

John

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by Sav'h Steve

I've towed my old Globetrotter with a Grand Marquis and done OK.

But even when I tried to reposition my 25' with the Marquis, it just sank to the bottom and groaned.

My Expy did reasonably well on flat land towing the 25', but the semi's did set me over on the road enough to make it uncomfortable (esp when you weren't keeping a real close eye.)

But the 2500 Burb with the same Reese WD hitch really is much more stable. It still has Passenger rated tires on it.

Also I am quite convinced that higher tire pressure and LT tires add significantly to the mix keeping the "white knuckles" at bay.

Steve

Ok, I made a cameo back here...Steve's comments mirror mine with the Impala SS except mine didn't groan. It does tow it, but you must be always on top of things...or things could happen. That is one of the main reasons I am looking into a 3/4 ton truck, be it a Suburban or a pickup. Funny how some folks get it while others, well, they simply don't. Good for you Steve.

[RivetED]

Originally Posted by Sav'h Steve

"EVERY good sailor knows that when you jibe, you pull the mainsheet in amidships as the stern crosses the wind, then you let it back out on the windward side... no slam jibes here! Yeah, right... "

That's when you are watching.... What 'bout those times when you are sailing 'by the lee' downwind. Those will get you in the noggin

Glad to know we have some sailors mixed in with the pilots!!

Steve

That's why it's called a BOOM!!!!!

[DreamStream]

There is another side to the big truck versus smaller tow vehicle debate. After one gets to one's destination, exploration of the area may be at the top of one's agenda. With this in mind, a Mitsubishi Montero (winner of the last four Paris-Dakar rallies) may be imminently more fun cruisin' the mountain roads than an F350 dually or even an Excursion. This is one of the reasons I am leaning towards the Bambi 19 CCD ... ability to pull with an exploration machine!

Referencing the many posts from aviators and sailors and being a former company pilot and San Juan 21 racer ... how appropriate that all are drawn to the aerodynamic lines of the Airstream.

[nettepdx]

here's a picture of my trailer taken from my vespa mirror (at least i think the picture will load ).

[59toaster]

Originally Posted by DreamStream

There is another side to the big truck versus smaller tow vehicle debate. After one gets to one's destination, exploration of the area may be at the top of one's agenda. With this in mind, a Mitsubishi Montero (winner of the last four Paris-Dakar rallies) may be imminently more fun cruisin' the mountain roads than an F350 dually or even an Excursion. This is one of the reasons I am leaning towards the Bambi 19 CCD ... ability to pull with an exploration machine!

Referencing the many posts from aviators and sailors and being a former company pilot and San Juan 21 racer ... how appropriate that all are drawn to the aerodynamic lines of the Airstream.

The Pajaro that won the Dakar has NOTHING in common with the street version. Its a custom vehicle that only shares the name are sort of resembles it.

Also Jutta Klindshimt won the dakar 3 years ago in a VW not a Mitsu. she placed 5th over all this year. Think it was 3rd last year. www.dakar.com

[Silvertwinkie]

All I can add is that you need the right tools for the job. If you choose to use the wrong tools, we'll that's your issue.......Darwinisim will take care of all in the end that choose to not do the right thing....be it now or later.

[john hd]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

All I can add is that you need the right tools for the job. If you choose to use the wrong tools, we'll that's your issue.......Darwinisim will take care of all in the end that choose to not do the right thing....be it now or later.

good one twink!

my idea of a "smaller tow vehicle" would be a short box standard cab chevy with a big block motor!

john