Silverado 1500 W/Max tow package

[aftermath]

Originally Posted by CraigCA

Following this thread. I just bought a 2015 Silverado 1500 w/max tow, 5.3, 3.73 three months ago to tow my '71 Sovereign. Payload sticker on the door says 2,101 max and towing is 11,100 lbs. I haven't towed it yet because I'm just about finished with the restoration.

I've read factory docs that say tongue weight for my AS is 490. Is that wrong or are the newer Airstreams that much heavier at the ball?

The published tongue weights are a mystery to me. I have an '08 25FB and it "says" the tw is 730 pounds. Mine is just past 1000 pounds. I have a spare tire, two batteries and two full propane tanks on the tongue so it doesn't surprise me. I do know that the newer trailers are heavier which would push tongue weights up by that alone.

This thread speaks about the ability of a half ton to tow a trailer. Today that is really not the issue. I have a Tundra and it can pull my trailer easily but the point one has to consider is the carrying capacity of the half ton. Mine is rated to pull 10K but once I put the trailer on the ball I am almost out of payload options. Depending on how you camp, this is the consideration that should come first.

[ckottum]

There is no Airstream currently built that needs more than 1000 lbs hitch weight, and the Owners Manual for some if not all of them warns against exceeding 1000 lbs. Perhaps Airstream can explain that limit, but it's in the manual. There are many things you can do to reduce hitch weight (keeping at least 10% of trailer weight), moving gear and/or components such as batteries aft. That's a small price compared to buying and operating a larger truck only for payload concerns.

To know what your hitch weight is you must place your scale under the coupler with the Airstream dead level; further back will give a heavier reading.

To know what this hitch weight adds to the truck after the weight distribution hitch is applied you need to weigh the loaded-for-travel truck without the Airstream attached, and again with the Airstream attached (weigh truck axles only) and weight distribution applied. The difference in truck weight is the weight the Airstream adds to the truck.

Weighing the trailer hitch point without considering weight distribution is useful for knowing you are under Airstream's 1000 lb limit, and for getting an idea which size weight distribution hitch you may need.

There is always discussion about how much a Hensley/ProPride adds to hitch weight. Who knows, and does it really matter after things are hitched up. Sitting on the trailer it looks like it adds all of its weight to the hitch. After sliding it into the truck's receiver it looks like its weight is being carried by the truck receiver. You need two scale weights as mentioned above to know its effect on truck payload.

cheryl

[ghaynes755]

Aftermath hit it outa the park. It isn't whether it will tow. Shoot, there is a classic photo of an AS being towed by a bicycle. It's what payload is left of the tow vehicle regardless of what that vehicle is.

And as Cheryl mentions there are lots of discussions on the forums defining hitch/tongue weight. Consider that AS when they do specs do a bare trailer. I think the specs say full propane but no other fluids. Then they weigh at the tongue/ball with a scale, maybe a Sherine. I didn't weigh my Classic in its bare setup.

Then we add WD setups of various sizes. Here's my opinion for my ProPride. There is a bit of weight that gets added to the trailer side which is the jacks and maybe you could say the spring bars.

I consider the weight of the ProPride head not to be an add to the trailer. Once it is hooked up the trailer tongue is 'sitting' on the head of the ProPride ball just like any other hitch. The weight of the ProPride head and stinger DO add to the overall weight on the vehicle hitch/receiver. So if the AS bare is 800# tongue weight, the PP head and stinger are 200#, the hitch/reciever is carrying 1000# but the tongue weight of the trailer is still 800#.

A visualization of assembling everything together on a ProPride then unlocking the hitch coupler on the trailer. You could then raise the trailer off of the ProPride ball. Then it looks like any other trailer/ball hookup scenario. The TV receiver would be carrying all of the weight of the WD setup other than the jacks.

This is a bit simplistic but without engaging any WD tension its just a bunch of parts that have some mass. And it would be similar to any other WD setup only the components wouldn't likely weigh as much as a PP.

[KJRitchie]

What size fuel tank with the 6.2L. What is the payload showing on the tire/load yellow sticker on the drivers door area?

Thanks

Kelvin

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by CraigCA

I've read factory docs that say tongue weight for my AS is 490. Is that wrong or are the newer Airstreams that much heavier at the ball?

Not really wrong, just not a useful number. It is the weight without "accessories", like spare tire, propane, water, air conditioning, upholstery, radio, awning etc.

The brochure from 1972 lists the TW of my Ambassador at 540lbs, but it is actually 1,000lbs loaded for camping.

[DHart]

It is very important to closely consider Carrying Capacity, in addition to Towing Capacity, which are two very different specifications. Some people look at towing capacity and completely overlook carrying capacity, which is a big mistake.

As each vehicle's build spec is unique as regards options, the only way to know Carrying Capacity for the vehicle in question is to look at the yellow sticker on the inside driver doorjam.

As a point of reference, our 2015 Sierra Denali HD (3/4 ton, Crew Cab, 6.5' bed, Duramax, Allison, 4x4, and a boatload of luxury features) has a carrying capacity of 2294#.

Adding up what we need to carry:
30' AS tongue 1100#
Me 190#
The Wife 140#
The Golden/Lab 100#
EU2000i Gen 47#
5 gal. gas 35#
Retrax Pro cover 90#
=======
1702 lbs.

2294# - 1702# = 592 lbs. of payload remaining for other people/more stuff. And we are likely to carry another 5 gal. of fresh water, camping recliners, camp table, and small BBQ, at least. Add that and a couple of additional people at 150# each and we will still have about 250# to 280# of safety margin carrying capacity.

Carrying capacity (along with exhaust brake, powered towing mirrors, and heavier TV weight) is why I decided to bump up to the 3/4 ton Duramax, vs the 1/2 ton 6.2L . No compromises with regard to capacities for our 30' Airstream towing application. We are very happy with the decision and absolutely LOVE the truck.



For your individual situation, do this exercise to determine whether the TV you are considering is up to the job you want it to accomplish. And it's nice to have a little margin of safety beyond capabilities.

[ckottum]

Originally Posted by ghaynes755

Aftermath hit it outa the park. It isn't whether it will tow. Shoot, there is a classic photo of an AS being towed by a bicycle. It's what payload is left of the tow vehicle regardless of what that vehicle is.

Well, many will tell you axle and tire ratings are more important than payload ratings.

Nonetheless it is important to know how to accurately measure added payload as mentioned in my post above if that is your criteria. And to realize Airstream hitch weight can be modified as long as it is at least 10% of loaded trailer weight.

And to realize some will pick the criteria and weighing methods that fit the truck they prefer to buy. Whether it's too light a truck or too heavy a truck doesn't matter.

cheryl

[eheffa]

Interesting discussion...

This is where the Dodge 1500 with the EcoDiesel seems a little deficient.

My 2010 Ford F-150 seems borderline with respect to Payload but the Dodge, despite its wonderfully economical engine, has even less payload capacity. I like having a canopy on the bed of the truck and by the time you have that and the trailer tongue wt added in, my toolboxes and BBQ will have in theory, exceeded the Payload.

-evan

[DHart]

One more factor in our decision (post 26, above) is that our travels usually include western states where going up, down, and through the Sierra Nevada, Rocky Mountain, and Pacific Coast mountain ranges is often done. Here is where the extra grunt of the Duramax, and the extra stopping power of the diesel exhaust brake are especially appreciated when towing the 30' Airstream.

[Dixie722]

I have a 1500 Z71 , If it were a choice, go with the 2500.. You wont regret it.

[ashrink12]

Originally Posted by ckottum

Well, many will tell you axle and tire ratings are more important than payload ratings.

Nonetheless it is important to know how to accurately measure added payload as mentioned in my post above if that is your criteria. And to realize Airstream hitch weight can be modified as long as it is at least 10% of loaded trailer weight.

And to realize some will pick the criteria and weighing methods that fit the truck they prefer to buy. Whether it's too light a truck or too heavy a truck doesn't matter.

cheryl

Cheryl has taken the discussion to the crux of the matter or should I say the crux of the WD hitch.

Cargo capacity is intended as a guideline for limiting the combination of cargo + passengers.

To decide if a given TV is overloaded by cargo+passenger+AS tongue weight you must pull the AS to the truck scales with WD hitch employed and weigh your rig.

The WD hitch will redistribute 1/3 of tongue weight to the AS axles and the remaining 2/3 tongue wt will be evenly distributed over the TV front & rear axles. This concept of redistribution of tongue weight with a WD hitch is clearly outlined in your AS manual. In my AS manual its under the Towing section pg7-5.

It is through the hitch's ability to redistribute AS tongue weight that the final tongue weight reaches the magical 10-11% of AS total weight. My AS dry wt is 5500# x 10% equals my weight distributed tongue wt of 550#.

Weigh the load on the TV front axle and rear axles to insure that both axle and tire ratings are not being exceeded. In general, with a properly setup WD hitch, many 1/2 ton pickups will pull a properly loaded 25-30 ft. AS with ease/comfort and never exceed the trucks weight/towing guidelines. You will have to pinch yourself periodically to remind yourself that you're actually pulling your AS.

My AS has an unloaded tongue weight of 837# but only 2/3 of this weight is passed evenly to the TV Front and rear axles. The WD hitch reduces the weight on my TV to 552# which is the magical 10% of total AS wt.

Without a WD hitch some 1/2 ton pickups would become over loaded or nearly overloaded when pulling a 25-30 AS.

Some will feel under gunned by towing an AS with anything less than a 3/4 ton truck but I like the economy, comfort ,value and ease of towing our 25FB with our Toyota Tundra. You have to pinch yourself as a reminder that the AS is following behind.

Spend a lot of time and several outings setting up your WD hitch and insure that both the TV and AS are towing level to give you a comfortable and secure ride.

Greg

[CaCraig]

All the 'goodies' added to the TV lower the payload capacity. Look at DHart's truck and mine. He has a Denali, ¾, longer bed, bigger engine and many more options than my Silverado 1500 with the smaller engine and the payload difference is less than 200 lbs. but I'm sure he can pull several thousand lbs. more than I can.

[Plasma800]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

I added the pdf attachment after you responded....scroll down to payload page.

I stand corrected. My sticker says never exceed 3097

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Plasma800

I stand corrected. My sticker says never exceed 3097

That sounds more like it!



Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums

[Skee75]

I'm really enjoying the feedback. I'll do the weight calc's with my WD figured in. I'm leaning towards the 1500 for now, but have not ruled out the 2500.

[DHart]

Originally Posted by CraigCA

All the 'goodies' added to the TV lower the payload capacity. Look at DHart's truck and mine. He has a Denali, ¾, longer bed, bigger engine and many more options than my Silverado 1500 with the smaller engine and the payload difference is less than 200 lbs. but I'm sure he can pull several thousand lbs. more than I can.

Craig... excellent point. If one prefers a "loaded" model with all the goodies and options, the 1/2 ton loses a critical margin of payload capacity. But if going with a more basic model without a lot of options, the payload on the 1/2 ton may be enough.

We wanted the maxed-out luxury version, which gobbles up some available cargo capacity, so going with the 3/4 ton Duramax was a no brainer for us.

There are a lot of variables to be considered, not just a couple of simple measurements.

One must also consider that some people will not have the ability to make all the weight measurements with a WD hitch BEFORE buying either the TV or the TT. In our case, we wanted to go on the side of greater capability because we were buying our truck before having the AS and had no option to fiddle around with WD hitches and scales before making a decision.

Depending on one's individual set of parameters, there are obviously a variety of ways to go. THe prudent person would err on the side of caution, however, as safety is probably the most important element to consider.

[ckottum]

Safety and heavy duty trucks do not go hand in hand. There are safer choices. The advantage of a heavy duty truck is ability to carry heavier loads and more powerful engine choices, it ends there. Some Airstreamers need this advantage, some don't, some think they do. No easy answer.

A point to consider here is a bigger truck is not necessarily a safer truck. It's not that easy. It feels safer but handles poorly, needs to brake another 2000 lbs of itself on four tires, more likely to roll over in a sharp turn, and its own weight is more likely to harm the passengers if it does.

There is a considerable void between these choices of light or heavy duty truck. That space between is where most Airstreamers find themselves and much of the reason for argument, too big or too small.

The truck makers are building trucks that are aimed for the guy who wants a truck but likes the soft suspension and tires of cars. Or the working guy who needs to haul 3000 lbs or tow 17000 lbs. Most Airstreams don't match well with either one. So we adapt as best we can and argue endlessly about it. Maybe this new Silverado is one of a new segment that better suits our Airstream needs.

cheryl

[gandttimes]

Originally Posted by Skee75

I'm really enjoying the feedback. I'll do the weight calc's with my WD figured in. I'm leaning towards the 1500 for now, but have not ruled out the 2500.

When I was looking into the 2015 GM1500 I noticed that when you got the 6.2 with the NHT ( max tow) you got the 3.42 gears and 7600lb GVW.
My 08 6L max tow is only 7200 and it's plenty for our 25FB, so personally I would stick with the 1500 as it would be our daily driver.


George

[DHart]

Originally Posted by ckottum

Safety and heavy duty trucks do not go hand in hand. There are safer choices.

cheryl

Safety is many things, cheryl. There is nothing inherently unsafe about a heavy duty truck. Ya know, vehicles are a lot like guns, in this regard. Safety is primarily found in the brain and the skills of the operator. There are great, skilled operators and there are a lot of lame-brained operators, as well. How an individual operates the vehicle in a preventive and defensive manner is the #1 safety factor, by a wide margin. And when the SHTF, how that individual responds is, again, the major factor in safety. You can't buy your way to safety with ANY choice of vehicles.

Safety is also a matter of keeping weights comfortably within specified capacities and having stopping power that is better than marginal. Handling is another factor. Though I believe that having a TV which is heavier is likely better than having one which is lighter, in terms of resisting the "tail wagging the dog". Arguments can go back and forth, depending on one's particular slant, of course.

There are a plethora of factors for anyone to consider when choosing a TV. And no single solution that is perfect choice in every way. As with everything else in life, there are compromises to every choice.

A 1/2 ton pickup could very well be the best option for some individuals with smaller, lighter Airstreams, like yours, and minimal cargo needs. A 3/4 ton diesel pickup may well be the best option for individuals with full length, heavier Airstreams, like the 30' Internationals and Classics, those with heavier cargo needs, those who travel through the Rockies, Sierra Nevada, Pacific Coast ranges, etc. And of course, those are both IMperfect choices. (There are no perfect choices in anything.) Thus, those are not hard and fast rules, as there are so many other factors that the individual needs to consider, depending on their needs and preferences.

For us, the 3/4 ton is the safest and best choice for our needs and preferences. The 1/2 ton trucks would not meet all of our needs with regard to cargo capacity and other factors, so we went with 3/4 ton diesel. But that's not a prescription for you and your situation, nor for anyone else. There is no right nor wrong answer to the general question of what TV is "best" for any individual. Just as you and I have done, that person needs to learn the important factors and then do their own research into the potential options that meet their needs. And then, make their own choice.... not your choice, not my choice... just what works for their individual situation.

[larryglarson]

I have a 2014 Chevy 1500 Silverado extended cab with the 5.3 engine and 3.73 rear end and no tow package. I love it. I pull on the ball for 2 years and 12,000 miles of towing. Last year we did the N/W with no trouble. I made a mistake and took Hwy 22 straight west out of Jackson, WY. Had to pull 10 miles or more at 7 to 8% grades (and the same down). I had to "back out of it a little" to keep the transmission cool, but it did the job very well. No I did not go up that grade at 70 MPH, but I will never take a road like that again. This truck will pull long 6% grades at about 50 MPH with no transmission temp gain. I do not use the "tow haul" option. I am all for fuel mileage and long engine life (like low RPM's).