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01-13-2014, 06:08 PM
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#121
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Rivet Master
2013 30' Classic
Greenwood
, Mississippi
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 12,111
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There was a guy at Canopener towing a Bambi with a Kia Borrego.
__________________
2013 Classic 30 Limited
2007 Silver Toyota Tundra Crew Max Limited 5.7 iForce
2006 Vivid Black Harley-Davidson Road King Classic
1999 Black Nissan Pathfinder LE
TAC #MS-10
WBCCI #1811, Region 6, Unit 56
Airforums #70955
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01-13-2014, 09:23 PM
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#122
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Rivet Master
2005 25' Safari
Salem
, Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS
Hi, that 2014 Volkswagen Micro-bus should really tow great with the "2000 Horse power 2.0 L turbo charged four cylinder gas engine."
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Hi, I guess some of you missed it; The article mentioned a 2000 horse power 2.0 L turbo four. I think it had one too many "0's"
__________________
Bob 2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent" Small Silver Castle
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
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01-13-2014, 11:37 PM
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#123
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Rivet Master
Vintage Kin Owner
N/A
, N/A
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasduess
In Europe, towing a smaller trailer with a four cylinder engine is considered perfectly normal.
The new Golf diesel, for example, develops 280lbs of torque and just under 200hp, ample for many setups. Payload is 1220 lbs. I would not suggest towing a 10,000 lbs Classic with it, but a 22ft or perhaps even a 25ft should not present the owner with many issues. Oh, and it is reported to deliver up to 70mpg.
I have measured hp output at the wheel for my own vehicle. The highest I could get it was 148hp accelerating from a standing start up a sizable hill and you know how large my trailer is. You don't need crazy power to move your Airstream, especially if most of it isn't wasted lugging a heavy tow vehicle around.
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I don't want this thread to be distracted from it topic; However, I think some explanation is needed here, before any conclusions are drawn (we can have extended discussion on this in a separate/new thread):
1) European Airstreams/Caravans have a vastly different design. The Axles are more forward (closer to the the hitch), hence they have a significantly lower tongue weight -- this is critical for not exceeding the payload. They are also narrower/shorter/lighter.
2) European sedans/wagons/small SUVs are generally "beefier" than their North American counterparts, hence they have higher tow ratings.
3) The speed limit for towing Caravans in Europe is lower than in the US.
Combination of the above factors makes European sedans/wagons/small SUVs viable tow vehicles for European Airstreams/Caravans. This clearly is not applicable to the North American Airstreams/sedans/wagons/small SUVs.
As for the horsepower, I am assuming you measured it at the wheels. The auto manufacturers measure the HP at the crankshaft. Going from crankshaft to wheels some power is lost to friction, heat, etc. Hence an engine making 250 HP, per manufacturer, may have a max 200 HP at the wheels.
I would also be cautious with payload numbers (you mentioned Golf has 1220# payload). My friend has a Toyota Sienna with supposedly 1570# of payload. The sticker on B-pillar states a payload of 1160# -- more than 400# less than the payload specified in Toyota and other websites. BTW, the Sienna is an LE edition with no unusual accessories and the payload is less than my friend's 1/2 ton Ram pickup. My point is a 25 ft Airstream (where many users here say has a ~1200# tongue weight) will surely overload a Golf and most probably a Sienna, even if a quality WDH hitch is used. To show you that I do not always disagree with you I agree that the diesel Golf can tow a 16 ft Airstream.
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01-14-2014, 04:42 AM
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#124
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Rivet Master
1984 34' International
Toronto
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,499
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To answer this very quickly, and if you do want to go into this deeper, yes we should open another thread:
1. The design might be different, but weight is weight. A 3500lbs Airstream isn't any heavier than a 3500lbs Euro trailer. Tongue weight is affected by design, I agree, but then keep in mind that in Europe there is no weight distribution to offset and control some of that weight. In the end, I suspect it comes out pretty much even.
2. As somebody who grew up in Europe, I am not sure I agree. I've personally driven, amongst others, the Euro and the US versions of the Golf Gti, the Mercedes B-class (Canadian version), the Audi A4, the BMW X3 and the Mercedes GL350. They were pretty much identical. There might be slight differences under the hood, and certain engine options might not be available, but not enough to make them different cars.
3. Speed limit across most of the US is either 65mph or 75mph. The towing speed limit in Europe varies between 60mph and 80mph depending on setup and country, i.e pretty much the same.
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01-14-2014, 05:58 AM
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#125
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Rivet Master
1966 26' Overlander
Woodstock
, Georgia
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 8,525
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I have been reading and reading articles and posts all across the net about towing with cars and smaller SUV's. Not only does it look doable, it is being done regularly.
Boats and other large trailers are being towed by vehicles smaller than I would have expected.
My goal will be met by something a lot smaller than my present Excursion. A great vehicle and mostly trouble free over the 14 years it has been on the road. But still too big and gas hogging for me to pbe practical at this time.
I have a short list of potential vehicles, and enjoying studying up on them.
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01-14-2014, 06:10 AM
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#126
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Mantua
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,062
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More pictures would be helpful as the original poster asked for. Love to see some of the euro combos. Jim
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01-14-2014, 07:30 AM
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#127
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Rivet Master
2011 28' International
Chatham
, Ontario
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,401
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01-14-2014, 07:45 AM
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#128
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Moderator
2017 26' Flying Cloud
Alamo Heights
, Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rostam
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2) European sedans/wagons/small SUVs are generally "beefier" than their North American counterparts, hence they have higher tow ratings.
~~
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You have mentioned this in the past. Your other points about the difference in tongue weight and allowable speeds for towing in Europe are reasonable, but I don't think the differences you imagine in the cars themselves actually exist.
Let's look at a vehicle you've mentioned in the past, the Subaru Forester. In order to compare apples to apples, I choose the 2014 2.0XT with a turbocharged gasoline engine with the "Lineartronic" (CVT) because it's available in both markets. To avoid translation issues, I'll choose the Subaru UK site.
The US site lists curb weight at 3,624 lb (1647 kg). The UK site lists "kerb weight" at 1607 kg, the heaviest of all the configurations available (due to the CVT most likely) and about 90 lb lighter than the US car, which is probably due to the UK car having less standard equipment or a difference in the way they set a car up to measure curb weight.
UK towing capacity is listed at 2000 kg (4400 lb) while US towing capacity is listed at 1,500 lb (682 kg). This is with the same engine and transmission (though likely running different software). I'm sure some of the difference is from the lower speeds allowed for towing in the UK and differences in tongue weight. Some may be from the mandated surge brakes in the UK vs. the requirement that owners install an aftermarket brake controller to have brakes on most trailers in the US. I just don't think any of it is from the Forester being "beefier" in the UK.
The higher prices for vehicles in Europe are due in large part to taxation... VAT is included in the price, and in the UK it's 20%. Even without VAT the price in dollars is significantly more for the car in the UK compared to the US but I don't it's buying you any more "beef."
__________________
— David
Zero Gravitas — 2017 Flying Cloud 26U | WBCCI# 15566
He has all of the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. — Sir Winston Churchill
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01-14-2014, 08:13 AM
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#129
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Moderator
2017 26' Flying Cloud
Alamo Heights
, Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrUKToad
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Interesting. I notice in the photos that the stabilizers run longitudinally, probably because of the narrow footprint of the trailer. No mention of how scary the price is.
__________________
— David
Zero Gravitas — 2017 Flying Cloud 26U | WBCCI# 15566
He has all of the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. — Sir Winston Churchill
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01-14-2014, 08:16 AM
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#130
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
1968 17' Caravel
2005 30' Safari
Somewhere
, roaming America
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,095
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Here's my favorite from last summer's Euro-13 gathering in Weilburg, Germany: a BMW X6. Cool-looking, but a bit pricey.
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01-14-2014, 08:40 AM
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#131
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Rivet Master
1984 34' International
Toronto
, Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,499
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I'd like to know where in the UK you can park your trailer on the beach without getting the cops to show up ten minutes later...
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01-14-2014, 08:45 AM
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#132
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Rivet Master
2011 28' International
Chatham
, Ontario
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKB_SATX
Interesting. I notice in the photos that the stabilizers run longitudinally, probably because of the narrow footprint of the trailer. No mention of how scary the price is.
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Actually DKB, your response in the post links directly to your response to Rostam in your previous post; scary prices are market led and in my view, so are the accompanying tow ratings.
There is no point in the manufacturers attempting to push European buyers to bigger and more "tow-capable" vehicles like they do in North America because there simply isn't the market for them. It's not that folk in Europe wouldn't like a big, manly pick-up truck but they simply will can't cope with a routine, non-towing gas mileage of less than 20 mpg. which seems to be quite acceptable here - you'll have seen the cost of gas over there I'm sure. So, if you can't sell a gas guzzler then you have to sell other stuff, like fuel efficient SUVs and quite capable sedans that will return 30 mpg or more when not towing but will haul reasonably heavy caravans with relative ease.
As you point out, DKB, a lot of the cars sold in the European market are available in North America these days, albeit with slight differences, and if they're good to tow in Europe then they should be good to tow here, despite what the "ratings" might suggest. But on this side of the pond where there is a market for those bigger vehicles, the manufacturers lead us to think that we must have a bigger car because a smaller one will not be up to the task and published tow ratings seem to be one of their biggest marketing tools in this trend. Physics be damned, it seems that it's largely down to the smoke and mirrors of marketing and what the market will stand.
This is a good debate to have because we should question the manufacturers, especially as gas prices go ever higher. There are plenty of North American Airstreamers who can show you a working tow vehicle that goes against the "bigger is better" marketing tide and the OP on this thread is looking to see what's possible; I hope others will do the same when it comes to buying that tow vehicle.
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01-14-2014, 08:48 AM
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#133
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Rivet Master
2011 28' International
Chatham
, Ontario
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasduess
I'd like to know where in the UK you can park your trailer on the beach without getting the cops to show up ten minutes later...
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Or it sinking into the mud!
That'll probably be Pendine Sands in West Wales where not only have land speed records been set but the RAF practice landing C130s! I can't believe that they've used a beach in Cumbria, near the Airsteam Europe base, because it'd be lost to the sinking sands and high speed tides in no time!
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01-14-2014, 09:19 AM
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#134
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
St. Catharines
, South Western Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,367
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This is our one and only beach shot. Lake of Two Rivers in Algonquin Park (2008).
__________________
Airstreams..... The best towing trailers on the planet!
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01-14-2014, 09:56 AM
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#135
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Rivet Master
1960 33' Custom
Athens
, Georgia
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,373
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I kind of speed skimmed but the beefier in the UK does have a bit of history, I think it was an influx of grey/ import Subaru Imprezzas from Japan that starting failing due to lighter duty materials than the UK spec cars a few years back.
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1960 Sovereign 33' Pacific Railroad Custom
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01-14-2014, 11:12 AM
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#136
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Rivet Master
1966 26' Overlander
Woodstock
, Georgia
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 8,525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rluhr
Here's my favorite from last summer's Euro-13 gathering in Weilburg, Germany: a BMW X6. Cool-looking, but a bit pricey.
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I have seen some deals on BMW 540i Wagons that made me think about them, but they need Premium gas and don't get great mileage. Would be fun though.
Also a Subaru Forrester would work for me.
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01-14-2014, 11:19 AM
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#137
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Rivet Master
1966 26' Overlander
Woodstock
, Georgia
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 8,525
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"UK towing capacity is listed at 2000 kg (4400 lb) while US towing capacity is listed at 1,500 lb (682 kg). This is with the same engine and transmission (though likely running different software). I'm sure some of the difference is from the lower speeds allowed for towing in the UK and differences in tongue weight. Some may be from the mandated surge brakes in the UK vs. the requirement that owners install an aftermarket brake controller to have brakes on most trailers in the US. I just don't think any of it is from the Forester being "beefier" in the UK. "
Sounds like a Forrester could be anothe choice to handle my 4000lb Overlander..
Anyone here using this?
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01-14-2014, 11:26 AM
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#138
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Rivet Master
1977 Argosy Minuet 6.0 Metre
Colorado Springs
, Colorado
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigzagguzzi
Personally I would prefer a large tow vehicle. But I think a Toyota FJ cruiser or jeep wrangler would suit my needs. Under 4000 pound trailer and a driver who drives like an old man, under 65 mph. If my current tow vehicle dies before I do, I may look into those options. Any more pictures of FJ orWrangler towing? Jim
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Here is a shot of my older Wrangler 'Rubiclone' towing a Minuet.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...tml#post436671
We have replaced this one with a newer 2005 Wrangler Rubicon and still tow the Minuet.
__________________
Royce (K0RKK) 146.460 simplex
Web page https://spearfishcreek.net/
AIR# 3913
'77' Minuet 6 Metre, behind a 2005 stock Jeep Rubicon with Equa-L-Zer hitch.
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01-14-2014, 11:51 AM
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#139
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Rivet Master
Vintage Kin Owner
N/A
, N/A
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALANSD
"UK towing capacity is listed at 2000 kg (4400 lb) while US towing capacity is listed at 1,500 lb (682 kg). This is with the same engine and transmission (though likely running different software). I'm sure some of the difference is from the lower speeds allowed for towing in the UK and differences in tongue weight. Some may be from the mandated surge brakes in the UK vs. the requirement that owners install an aftermarket brake controller to have brakes on most trailers in the US. I just don't think any of it is from the Forester being "beefier" in the UK. "
Sounds like a Forrester could be anothe choice to handle my 4000lb Overlander..
Anyone here using this?
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I own an old body style Forester (non-turbo), rated to tow 2400#. I would not tow more than the stated tow capacity. Otherwise, it is an amazing vehicle.
How about Buick Enclave/GMC Acadia/Chevy Traverse? They tow ~5000# and get OK mileage.
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01-14-2014, 03:09 PM
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#140
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Rivet Master
1966 26' Overlander
Woodstock
, Georgia
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 8,525
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been looking at those GM vehices too. I am also looking at Suzuki XL7 which is the same platform but less expensive. Has really good reviews regarding tow capability.
My list now-
Volvo XC70 or 90 or other Volvo suitable for towing. I would consider older Volvos (if reasonably low miles)
Suzuki XL7 (or similar)
Jetta TDI
Chrysler 300
Dodge Charger or Magnum
Audi A6 Wagon
Jeep Diesel
Acura MDX
Most are 2006 or so - budget is under 10,000
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