Reflections on 3/4 ton ownership

[Fyrzowt]

Originally Posted by Swanny

The key point here is that you're towing a 25' AS. Try pulling a 31 or 34 foot AS with a 1/2 ton....it just isn't safe because I can speak from experience. We went ahead and bit the bullet and purchased 1 ton truck with diesel. Many people have insisted that this will damage the TT but after 12k miles of towing there is no damage to our 34' Excella.

Good luck and may the best man win! Oh...I guess we all won because we have an Airstream.

There are obvious limitations to a 1/2 ton vehicle.
But please note that in the original post, Bill tows a 25' A/S. I don't recall Bill limiting the conversation to something over 30'. In fact, the A/S I towed to Missouri was a 29 footer.
Are you now saying that someone needs a 1 ton diesel for a 31 or 34?
Dave

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Well it's time to replace the Frantic Banana #1 (see classified section)

Just couldnt pass this one up. 2006 3/4 Suburban. 14610mi. G.M.

exec demo, Put in service 3/07. fac warranty to 3/10. this darn thing is

loaded. Pick it up in N.C. the first week of March. Waddya think.

I have this same vehicle. Same 4.10s, sight and sound, etc.... Not sure if you got an 8.1L or the 6.0L, but I will say that the fit and finish on these are great. Braking is outstanding, and I don't even have to say how well it tows 6300lbs of RV. There have been many times where I have to check if the Safari is still back there.

I would wholeheartedly suggest that you change out the fluids in the driveline when time permits after it's been broken in towing. There is a specific break in procedure for the first 500 miles of towing.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by Chuck

it is NOT false. what I said, is what it cost, (msrp) for that truck, at that point in time.

So chevy, today, charges less. whoop-de-freakin-doo, its still "thousand$" of dollars for the option. If that's not "real" to you, then well, congratulations, and god bless america. I'm happy for you.

Chuck, we can go round and round on this, but your comments are not accurate. This is not something just happened recently either, it's been this way for at least the last 4-5 years, maybe longer. Of course, I am only speaking toward the GM offerings. You may be right when it comes to Ford or Dodge, but I don't care for or subscribe to either brand and that is my personal choice, not suggesting folks flock to GM (though it's not a bad idea).

I personally feel that around $3000 (or in some cases even less than that) for a better engine, frame, brakes, hubs, transmission, additional gauges, suspension, is a small price to pay for these added benefits. I look at it this way, if you care to, and have spent what we all have for our Airstreams, or any trailer for that matter, why skimp $3000 or in some cases barely any difference in terms of cost? Over 5 years, that's only $50 a month if you finance the vehicle. I would agree that the prices of trucks in general, be it 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton isn't an inexpensive endevor, but if you want to play, you got to pay. No one is giving toys away for nothing. I too, like anyone want to spend the least I have to, but I also want the best I can get. I feel personally I have done that.

I would furhter agree, that if someone had up to a 23' unit, 1/2 is the way to go, or if you had a vintage, but when your talking along the weights and sizes of 25' or larger newer Airstream (or equiv trailer) the benefits of 3/4 are pretty clear, to most of us. Rember I moved my 25' Safari with a 1/2 equiv. It moved my Safari well. Power was never an issue, but remember, power is only part of the overall equation when it comes to towing. Me I am very happy with my course of action as I hope others, regardless of what they have, are happy and safe with theirs.

Bill has put out what I would consider a good post on his exp. Though I have no diesel, I can appreciate his process. I have no interest in doing a Chevy vs Ford type discussion here on the topic of 1/2 vs 3/4 and further clouding the thread bringing up diesel, because my take is, that isn't what the thread was about. What I've stated are the facts in terms of the comments of 3/4 more pricey than 1/2 ton to the best of my ability. Readers are welcome to do their own comparisions and draw their own conclusions from it as I am not trying to force anyone to agree or disagree. If anyone wants to get into a more in depth converstion about it, feel free to PM me about it and we can talk further on the subject and maybe pull even more historical data out that would support the overall comments here so as not to hijack this thread.

[BillTex]

I’ll lump a few responses together here;

The GM 8.1l was a great engine, why they dumped it, we’ll never know. If you have a Burb, Avy, or truck with one, count yourself lucky…except at the gas pump! But as Silvertwinkie noted “ youz got to pay to play”…none of us are doing this to save money.

Chuck, my point on the price is there is lots of overlap when specing out a truck. If bling is your priority then spend 40 large on a pimped ½ ton, if safety and performance is your priority you can spend 30 large and get a ¾ ton stripper. See the point?

Pmc, I’m with you. I tend to keep my vehicles for 10 years. The D/A is competent enough to do that easily. With the cost of vehicles today, you have to keep them a long time to get any value out of them. I’d hate to buy a brand new ½ ton just to find out it wasn’t really up to the task. This is really the point of this post; to help someone who may be shopping, or just getting into this game, the consensus is, if you are towing a significant load, get the ¾ ton and you will have no worries about your TV’s capabilities.

FYI; please note my 89 25’ Excella has a tongue weight of ~ 1000# when loaded. This is enough to seriously burden any ½ ton after you throw the family, the dog, and lunch in the cab.

Bill

[Fyrzowt]

[quote]FYI; please note my 89 25’ Excella has a tongue weight of ~ 1000# when loaded. This is enough to seriously burden any ½ ton after you throw the family, the dog, and lunch in the cab.[/quote]Bill, I agree with you on this point.
As I stated earlier, a 1/2 ton isn't for everyone or every trailer. But there are some here who think you can ONLY tow with a 3/4 - they are flat wrong.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Chuck, we can go round and round on this, but your comments are not accurate.

They are absolutely, 100% accurate.

Did you buy a dodge pickup in 1999??

were you on the lot, looking at an exact duplicate of MY truck??

Why is it so hard for you to accept that a 3/4 ton package on a dodge truck in 1999 cost $5000? why??
there isn't a vehicle manufacturer on the planet, then or now, that gives away a 3/4 ton package for free, and that is essentially what the original poster stated, and that is all I have a quibble with.
The rest, is all highly subjective, personal preference.

Originally Posted by Fryzowt

But there are some here who think you can ONLY tow with a 3/4 - they are flat wrong.

well, that is always the overall tone of these discussions, that "my choice is the only reasonable one". The fact is that people's situations are as variable as the people themselves, and there is almost never 1 single "correct" choice.

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by Fyrzowt

As I stated earlier, a 1/2 ton isn't for everyone or every trailer. But there are some here who think you can ONLY tow with a 3/4 - they are flat wrong.

Dave, very true, but my point was I have not found any negatives to 3/4 ton ownership...so why not?

As oft stated "better to have more than you need...than need more than you have".

Can anyone think of any negatives they have experienced by moving from a 1/2 ton to a 3/4 ton?

I'll offer one counter point right away to another oft stated theory; I don't understand how some folks, including one of our favorite vendors, believes that a stiff TV suspension can effect the integrity of the AS being towed by it. Last time I checked, I had a very compliant suspension system underneath my AS to compensate for any stress on it's components. If you consider how the load (all forces,including from the tongue) is transferred in the system (quick free-body diagram) the force is always being absorbed by compression of the suspension components. Might this wear your suspension quicker over time (maybe if you maxed the system="bottom out"). My suspension is in pretty good shape at only 19 years and ??? miles...I guess this theory remains to be tested.

Bill

[CanoeStream]

Two years ago another member and I were arguing the TV specs and math on what it takes to tow heavier newer 25' and 28' Airstreams. Let's just say we had some posts removed. Four months later I became a mod and have taken the responsibility to understand multiple members' perspectives and experiences. I scratch my head somewhat but I do respect the technological solutions found by Can-Am RV. Somewhere in between is Gen Disarray's http://www.airforums.com/forums/f348...ers-36380.html thread. It doesn't come down to being a millionaire. Too many towing solutions work in the real world to deny them a place at the table. I see this view mentioned in this thread -- just wanted to bring it up again though.
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Towing 1000# tongue weight (when water is aboard) with a 3/4-tonner... no embarassment to admit it. Your numbers may vary.

Bob

[Fyrzowt]

As regards price of the 1/2 vs 3/4 - I can't afford new.
Around here, the 3/4 ton trucks DO cost more in the used market. Probably due to our rural area and agricultural use pressures. ??

[TIMEMACHINE]

Originally Posted by CanoeStream

Somewhere in between is Gen Disarray's http://www.airforums.com/forums/f348...ers-36380.html thread. It doesn't come down to being a millionaire. Too many towing solutions work in the real world to deny them a place at the table. I see this view mentioned in this thread -- just wanted to bring it up again though.
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Bob

You beat me to it Bob, sometimes we forget the relative financial differences of the members. Most of the forum members are not spending $100,000 on their TV/AS rig (don't forget the gens, BBQs, chairs and other accessories). When we talk about all of the theoretical options, we should remember they may not be practical options in some cases. Economics does play a significant role in this discussion.

[sander17]

Originally Posted by altamont

On the downside, diesel fuel is $0.20 more a gallon than premium right now. That hurts but the increase in miles per gallon makes up the difference in cost.

As an aside, can anyone tell me why diesel should ever cost more than gas? When we bought our truck last April, diesel was $0.20 LESS than regular.

I switched from a HEMI powered 1/2 ton to a Cummins diesel in the fall of '05. Just in time for the winter price increase for diesel. The pundits claim that the high prices in winter are due to competition with home heating oil, which is basically the same juice. Even so, the better mileage meant that diesel had to be more than 60 cents higher than midgrade for the fuel costs to be higher. Every summer (Airstreaming season for us working stiffs in the great white north) the diesel has dropped to below regular unleaded. So, I just grin and bear it when filling up in the winter. The other odd thing is how gas prices fluctuate a lot while the diesel stays the same. It probably has something to do with how much fuel they go thru each week.

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by TIMEMACHINE

You beat me to it Bob, sometimes we forget the relative financial differences of the members. Most of the forum members are not spending $100,000 on their TV/AS rig (don't forget the gens, BBQs, chairs and other accessories). When we talk about all of the theoretical options, we should remember they may not be practical options in some cases. Economics does play a significant role in this discussion.

Yes, exactly; for the same $, with a little homework, some concession on the bling (maybe), you can gain the added benefit of a HD tow vehicle. This applies to new/used, Millionairstream/or not.
It is a question of priorities.

Bill

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by sander17

So, I just grin and bear it when filling up in the winter. The other odd thing is how gas prices fluctuate a lot while the diesel stays the same. It probably has something to do with how much fuel they go thru each week.

I think clean air standards also affected diesel fuel pricing. Aparently the low sulpher diesel commands some additional refining. Always some excuse to push up the price. I'm not sure if those standards apply to the product as a whole or are regional specific as are gasoline.

For what it's worth. In the van world we looked closely at the difference between 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton GM vans and the price differential was at the time was extremely small. Not only did it get me the bigger wheels, E rated tires, and beefier frame components, but it opened up the option list to larger engines and axle configurations. I'm not sure how that translates to the pickup world though.

Jack

[RBolton]

You guys crack me up.

But, for what it's worth

2008 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4X4 SLT Hemi Automatic MSRP $36355

2008 Dodge Ram 2500 Quad Cab 4X4 SLT Hemi Automatic MSRP $37175

ADD Diesel............................................ ....................MSRP $44675

However, that $7500 premium for the diesel does not just add the diesel engine to the 2500. Everything under the hood and underneath the truck is different.

Roger

[ROBERT CROSS]

Are we comparing 1/2 to 3/4....or petrol and oil burner.

Maybe it would help if we got rid of the vs in the title.....

Have fun people

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by RBolton

You guys crack me up.

But, for what it's worth

2008 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4X4 SLT Hemi Automatic MSRP $36355

2008 Dodge Ram 2500 Quad Cab 4X4 SLT Hemi Automatic MSRP $37175

ADD Diesel............................................ ....................MSRP $44675

However, that $7500 premium for the diesel does not just add the diesel engine to the 2500. Everything under the hood and underneath the truck is different.

Roger

Or (from Dodge.com); 5.9-Liter HO Cummins Turbo Diesel Engine
$5,605

• GVW Rating 9,000 Pounds
• 5.5 Additional Gallons of Diesel
• Tow Hooks
• Current Generation Engine Controller
• Electronically Controlled Throttle
• Underground Calibration
• 11.50 Rear Axle
• 750-Ampere Maintenance-Free Battery

3.73 Axle Ratio
Incl.
6-Speed Manual Transmission
Incl.

Features/Options$0
HD Vinyl 40/20/40 Split Bench Seat
Incl.
Monotone Paint
Incl.
40/20/40 Split Bench Seat
Incl.
Black Vinyl Floor Covering
Incl.
Air Conditioning
Incl.
4-Speakers
Incl.
AM/FM Stereo with CD Player
Incl.
LT245/70R17E BSW All Season Tires
Incl.
17" x 7.5" Steel Argent Styled Wheels
Incl.


Net Price: $32,535Special Interest Rate: Est. Mo. Purchase Payment‡: Est. Mo. Lease Payment†: Est. Mo. Plus Payment†:

As you can see, lots of overlap (depending on priorities) Yes-it can be done!

Bill

[BillTex]

Well, don't know what happened with the formatting there-mods?
That was cut/paste from dodge.com

Bill

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by BillTex

Well, don't know what happened with the formatting there-mods?
That was cut/paste from dodge.com

Bill

Mine did the same thing, I had to manually edit it, but even then it wasn't happy!

[Swanny]

Originally Posted by Fyrzowt

There are obvious limitations to a 1/2 ton vehicle.
But please note that in the original post, Bill tows a 25' A/S. I don't recall Bill limiting the conversation to something over 30'. In fact, the A/S I towed to Missouri was a 29 footer.
Are you now saying that someone needs a 1 ton diesel for a 31 or 34?
Dave

Nope. I actually was made an offer I couldn't refuse by my local Ford dealer. We were looking for a 3/4 ton truck...not neccessarily a diesel.

This truck was a dealer Demo with about 1500 miles on it and I walked out the door with it for $38k. Fully loaded with the tow command package (this feature rocks) and leather everything, etc.

I'm definitely not saying a person towing a 25' needs anything larger than a 1/2 ton. I guess if you're shopping for a new TV...why limit yourself? If a person plans to NEVER go longer than 25' that's fine.

My experience in towing a 31' with a 1/2 ton truck was that I had plenty of Horsepower to pull it...but the vehicle didn't have the stopping power needed. On a wet road things could be pretty interesting

Stay safe and thanks for a great thread.

[whitsend]

Altamont - I'm told the reason diesel gets more expensive in the fall & winter months is that diesel, with very few if any refining modifications, is used as home heating fuel in all the northern states. If that is true, then market forces are responsible for the stiff price increase.

I have an F-250 diesel as my daily driver and TV, and I am definately NOT an "Airstream Millionaire", anything but. But I also have towed many large very heavy trailers (horses, farm animals, boats, etc.) for many years and all that experience led me to my F-250 diesel. I like being in control of my vehicle & trailer, as much as humanly possible. I like not being an obsticle (sp?) on those long steep mountain grades. I like the beefed up braking system. I'm not saying everyone MUST go for the 3/4 ton diesel. I am saying that if you can go that route, your towing experience will be much improved. Especially if you put on a HA-HA!! (Sorry - I just had to throw that in)