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Old 02-19-2008, 06:38 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Chuck
I specifically remember the breakdown, and it was about 5K for the 3/4 ton, and another 5k for the deisel itself. Both significant numbers, imo. certainly not "minimal".
and I used to sell 'em...I know what the markup is. it ain't that much.

now...if you happen to be one of those "airstream millionaires"...well, then sure. 90g's for the new 34' classic, + another 60 or so for the luxury SUV...what's a few grand extra for a deisel? chump change.
Chuck, let's take "one for instance" a 5.6l F150 and a 5.5l F250, depending on how they are packaged, would have an awful lot of overlap (let's not get into every Mfr and every model-this would result in hundreds of price points...) but the point is; if you were getting ready to lay out some cash (let's keep it low by todays numbers) and say you were going to drop $30G on a new truck, this could get you either a F150 or F250.Very easily. If you're objective is towing, then the decision should be easy.

If you were selling trucks, couldn't you have arranged a better deal? For yourself?

The real price differential, when we bought the D/A versus a gasser was between $3-$4k. And I saw this at several dealers, after looking at dozens of trucks and invoices...and I didn't know anyone at these dealers.

Anyway, while I am very happy with the diesel so far, the point of the post was the advantage of 3/4 tonners vs 1/2 tonners, not diesel vs. gas. As noted, even 1/2 ton's have enough juice to move any AS out there. It is the platform, not the engines, that makes the difference.

Bill
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Old 02-19-2008, 06:54 PM   #16
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Two cents from the "girlie" side of the fence.

I traded a 2003 3/4 ton gasser Suburban for a 2008 3/4 ton diesel Silverado around Thanksgiving. (I traded in the Lexus too, so the big quad cab-long bed IS my daily driver.)

I get happier every week. Got 11-15 mpg not towing on the Burb. Got a dismal 9-12 mpg towing. The new diesel Silverado started out getting 13 mpg either towing or not. I'm still in the break-in phase, and my non-towing mileage last week was 18.3 mpg! Even with the higher price of diesel, I'm making out like a bandit. Everything the original post said about quiet ride, huge breaks, and powerful transmission, is true (but I do have to turn off the engine at Starbucks or my order gets messed up).

Since the 2007 and 2008 models require ultra-low-sulpher fuel I do have to watch out when refilling, but I've found several places close to home and on the road, a Shell or Citgo that sells diesel is almost is usually easy to find. The big truck stops will come over to ULS sooner or later, then I'll be in hog heaven.

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Old 02-19-2008, 07:19 PM   #17
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I'm for the 3/4 ton, that's a given. Our TV is an '05 2500 Suburban 4x4x4. What I am unsure of is the diesel factor. We pull the Airstream extensively. Just about everywhere we go there is always a line at the diesel pump. The diesel is generally 30-40 cents more per gallon. The Duramax option on a GM pick-up is curretnly $7,500.00. Even with the 40-50% better mpg, the cost per mile factor is not much different than a gasser.

I have gone back and forth over this issue for the last year. I am now back at gas. The gas Sub pulls great in all situations. I just don't know if the diesel is worth the hassel.

Convince me otherwise.

Brian
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Old 02-19-2008, 07:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
I specifically remember the breakdown, and it was about 5K for the 3/4 ton, and another 5k for the deisel itself. Both significant numbers, imo. certainly not "minimal".
and I used to sell 'em...I know what the markup is. it ain't that much.

now...if you happen to be one of those "airstream millionaires"...well, then sure. 90g's for the new 34' classic, + another 60 or so for the luxury SUV...what's a few grand extra for a deisel? chump change.
Again, simply false (except for the diesel, which does add significant retail costs to the packages, but are NOT availible in 1/2 ton anyway, so we are NOT comparing apples to apples:

Straight off the Chevy site, same base 4x4 LTZ extended cab long bed and mind you, these are retail numbers, your horse trading skills may yield better:


3/4 ton
2008 Silverado 2500HD Ext. Cab Long Box LTZ
Extended Cab Long Box
4x4 Drive

MSRP:$39,585.00Colors & Options: $0.00Total MSRP*:$39,585.00Current Offers:- $2,250.00Net Price:$37,335.00

1/2 ton
2008 Silverado 1500 Ext. Cab Long Box LTZ
Extended Cab Long Box
4x4 Drive
MSRP:$36,540.00Colors & Options: $0.00Total MSRP*:$36,540.00Current Offers:- $3,000.00Net Price:$33,540.00

Difference $3795 to upgrade to a 3/4 ton (non diesel- before horse trading)

That's $3795 for better engine, better trans, better hubs, better rear axle, better suspension........seems both reasonable and minimal to me.
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Old 02-19-2008, 07:24 PM   #19
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Convince me otherwise.

One word: torque!
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Old 02-19-2008, 07:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosetags

Convince me otherwise.

Brian
I'm not selling either one but when we had to get a new truck the F250 PSD got real affordable at %1 financing.

After getting the PSD I can tell you hills may as well be flat ground to the PSD.

Fuel is easy and the only long line experience I've had is in Barstow, Ca.

Wait til the 4X4X4 either dies or the big 3 are making "deals of a lifetime" to unload unsold units.
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Old 02-19-2008, 07:35 PM   #21
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Here is a Suburban comparison since SUV was mentioned, again, straight from the Chevy site:

1/2 ton
2008 Suburban 1/2 Ton LTZ 1LZ
4x4 Drive
MSRP:$51,305.00Colors & Options: $0.00Total MSRP*:$51,305.00Current Offers:- $3,000.00Net Price:$48,305.00

3/4 ton

2008 Suburban 3/4 Ton LT 3LT
4x4 Drive
MSRP:$47,750.00Colors & Options: $0.00Total MSRP*:$47,750.00Current Offers:- $3,000.00Net Price:$44,750.00


The LTZ 1LZ is an upgrade beyond the LT 3LT availible on the 1/2 ton that appears not to be availible on the 3/4 ton, maybe because some of the features are already part of the 3/4 ton....at any rate, as you can see the price between 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton gassers as was pointed out is not significantly higher comparing apples to apples in a standard gasser line in GM land. I did not and don't shop Ford or Dodge, so this will have to do.

Keep in mind that diesel is NOT currently an option on the SUV line yet, so these are real world comparision numbers, again, with your own horse trading skills, your mileage (price) may vary.

I totally agree diesel has far more torque, but my comments are aimed directly at the comments that there is a significant price difference between a gasser 1/2 ton and a gasser 3/4 ton. Clearly my two comparision posts demonstrate this is not the case. In the SUV arena, the 1/2 costs more than the 3/4 ton!

Difference to upgrade to 3/4 ton: SAVINGS of $3555
If you get the same LT 3LT on the 1/2 ton, it's nearly a dead heat!
Minimal in my book, either way you go....
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Old 02-19-2008, 08:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillTex
Chuck, let's take "one for instance" a 5.6l F150 and a 5.5l F250, depending on how they are packaged, would have an awful lot of overlap (let's not get into every Mfr and every model-this would result in hundreds of price points...) but the point is; if you were getting ready to lay out some cash (let's keep it low by todays numbers) and say you were going to drop $30G on a new truck, this could get you either a F150 or F250.Very easily. If you're objective is towing, then the decision should be easy.

If you were selling trucks, couldn't you have arranged a better deal? For yourself?

The real price differential, when we bought the D/A versus a gasser was between $3-$4k. And I saw this at several dealers, after looking at dozens of trucks and invoices...and I didn't know anyone at these dealers.

Anyway, while I am very happy with the diesel so far, the point of the post was the advantage of 3/4 tonners vs 1/2 tonners, not diesel vs. gas. As noted, even 1/2 ton's have enough juice to move any AS out there. It is the platform, not the engines, that makes the difference.

Bill
Hey Bill, Haven't talked to you in a while. How's it goin? I love hearing your opinions on towing and 3/4 ton trucks. Thanks for sharing your experience.
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Old 02-19-2008, 08:55 PM   #23
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Hey Brian, yeah life is good-the shoulder is healing fine. Got back on skiis last week.
Making lots of plans for Streamin this summer. I see you have a big trip planned! Good for you.

Moosetags, that is one of the points I tried to make...there is no "hassle" associated with diesel. Not that I have found. Some price penalty up front, but not much (as noted ~$3k-$4k in our case) but the day to day has been a non-issue. Again, untill we put a good 150k miles on the diesel I am not ready to jump up/down about it...but so far so good. I never towed with a BB gasser 3/4 ton, and GM don't make em' anymore so I prolly won't. I will agree that gas vs diesel is personal pref for what AS makes...
Bill
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Old 02-19-2008, 09:30 PM   #24
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personaly i will be buying a 3/4ton duramax for my next daily driver and t/v. just because of there superior duribility and longevity. also if you were to get into the performance aftermarket from the little bit of research ive done you get more hp and a whole lot more torque and better fuel economy.
Also if you just look at the way the automotive industry is going i bet you will notice growing trend in useing diesel's in the next few years Ive also read that GM will be puting a 4.8lt duramax diesel in the 1/2 ton trucks. also electric car's are out the window there is no future for them unless there a hybrid running a diesel for the power plant. there just an all around better power plant. and if you wanna be a head of the curve get a diesel.
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Old 02-19-2008, 09:44 PM   #25
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I would submit since October I have towed over 15k miles and 70 plus nights, more than most. My 08 gasser is just perfect, leased and worked hard and new every 2. Diesel in any form makes me just sick, horrible smell, burned or fluid, even geting it on my hands is like hell. It pisses me off at fuel stations and the poison is on the ground and I get it on my shoes. The new heavy half tons are set up perfect for most of what we tow. They accept weight distribution better, and track very stable.

I must bring up the subject of over rigging. When hooked up, do you have 3-4 inches of rear suspension travel jumping on the rear bumper? Is your truck taking the beating, or your castle. If not talk to Inland Andy, the industry is ripe with way too much truck for the coach and repairs are huge. I say each his own, but for most of us, and that includes guys like me who are really using our rigs, the 1/2 ton is a viable product.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:37 PM   #26
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Sincere post

Bill,

Your original post has both passion and merit. Although I agree with the basic concept of a 3/4 ton truck being a better tow vehicle than a 1/2 ton truck, one must understand that there are exceptions. Some of our fellow AS owners have had and continue to have excellent experiences with 1/2 ton TVs. Of course many of these 1/2 ton experiences are with lighter Airstreams, yet some are with late model 25' and over weighing considerably more.

I believe much of this debate is due to perspective due to varied conditions. Taking your point one step further, I have "felt" the difference in the quality of towing with different 3/4 ton TV's, some being far better than others. Maybe the perception was swayed by the hitch set up, the balance of the load, wheel base, the tires, the road conditions, my physical ability on that day at that time, weather, traffic conditions, altitude, the number and size of passengers and so on.

In general, I think it is possible for the owner of a 1/2 ton truck to "feel" comfortable with their towing set up if all of the conditions are aligned in a positive manner. Certainly safe in most situations, but most important is the owners perception of his control and safety. He/she just "feels" good about the set up based on the input while driving.

I agree with you based on logic, but also based on how it feels when I am towing with a heavier frame, stronger suspensions/axles and bigger brakes. Another but....many of the new 1/2 SUVs and trucks have very sophisticated suspensions, electronic control systems, massive brakes and big power, they are getting close, and some would say they are already in the zone.

I appreciate your passion in your message, it is obvious your strong opinion is meant to be helpful for those still working out the details.
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Old 02-20-2008, 08:28 AM   #27
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Time, I couldn’t agree more; hitch setup is critical to an enjoyable (and safe) towing experience. And yes, many Folks are happy with ½ ton trucks. I have always qualified my opinion by stating this would apply to those who are towing a certain weight/length, and/or towing significant miles. Obviously, my advice to not apply to all. But I do think many of us end up towing further, bringing more stuff than we planned, and towing more often, after we get caught up in the AS lifestyle. Isn’t that the fun of it?
I was happy with a ½ ton (heck I’ve owned a bunch of em’) I just did not feel at all comfortable towing over 6000# with one. Because I had the benefit of towing other, lighter campers previously, the limitations of the ½ ton were very clear after dropping 1000# of hitch weight on one. I would suggest that anyone towing 25’ or greater (excluding Vintage units) is very near, or over, the rated payload capacity of a ½ ton truck after adding passengers, firewood, dog, beer. This makes for some very squirrelly towing. If you have never towed with anything else, you may think this is normal. That is the point of my old post ($.02 Worth of towing advice). Many folks just don’t tow that many miles each year, and can live with a less than optimal TV. Others try to skirt the issue by adding better tires, swapping suspension components, etc. None of these changes tow rating, payload, or GVWR. I say; just buy the TV that comes all set up for towing. Heck, we like to have a full water tank (400#), often we need to when we are boon docking. We like to pile in bikes, kayaks, firewood, buy some antiques along the way, who knows… but I don’t want to be worried about every last pound we put on board.
Having a beefy TV means you have to worry less about all the stars being aligned resulting in a “feel good” towing experience. You never have any doubt about your capacities, power, and handling. Yes you could buy a haha, spend lots of time tweaking your setup, shifting the load, etc. I say; buy the big truck and go.

The first step in the new TV decision process should be an honest evaluation of how you will be using your AS in the future; tow it to the lake property once/year? Multiple trips of several thousand miles? Full timer with no schedule and nothing to do but explore? All these, as well as rated capacities for your setup, should be an important part of the process resulting in a safe, relaxed, towing experience.



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Old 02-20-2008, 09:19 AM   #28
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Being a newbie on the block reading this thread of posts shows me that AS owners are passionate as well as informed. When I went looking for my tv I looked at Chevy and Ford. I went with Ford as I had some good experiences with Ford and Lincoln/Mercury when I owned an 11 car limo service. That said I began look seriously at the F series, and I priced out an 08 F-250 5.4L gasser. With the tow package and all the bells and whistles, rebates it came to 37K. I then went to a larger dealer and as stuff happens they showed me an 08 F-350 6.4L diesel wiith tow package. It listed for 53K and I just laughed at the sales guy. He went through the game of checking with his manager a couple of times. Then the sales manager asked me what it would take to put me behind the wheel, and I told him I wanted to pay 42,300.00 with taxes and documents, dealer prep included in that price. He went to his boss and I told my wife to get ready to go home. He came back and asked me if I would take delivery that day, and how much was I putting down. To make this long story short my sweetie and I drove home in that F-350. I have towed my 34' AS twice and I am blown away how easy it is with that truck. So for 4000 more I won the truck lottery, and it doesnt hurt to ask...

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