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Old 05-13-2019, 03:45 PM   #1
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Ram/Cummins DEF Failure

I know many forum members like myself are using Ram 2500s and 3500s with the Cummins turbodiesel engines as our tow vehicles. They are a great vehicle and powertrain, and I love the way mine tows my 27FB Classic, buuuttttt... They have a serious Achilles Heel: The DEF system.


My DEF pump died on the way cross-country a couple weeks ago, and turned the trip into a real adventure. The problem is not that a DEF malfunction makes the truck unsafe or unusable; the issue is that, once a problem is sensed by the OBD system, the truck disables itself to 5 mph max with only 150 miles notice. For those of us who do long journeys with our Airstreams, this usually leaves us stranded a long way from home - as we were. And good luck finding a dealer to fix it or getting the parts in under a week! It is a ticking time bomb under the hood of every Ram/Cummins (and, I believe that Ford and GM diesels have a similar disabling software setting) - and an expensive one, even if covered under warranty.


For those interested in the details of our "adventure", they are chronicled under a different post:



http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...re-195427.html


Love the truck - hate the DEF system!
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:49 PM   #2
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Put a tuner on it.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:55 PM   #3
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I am leaning strongly in that direction, Countryboy59. I support their stated objective of making diesels more environmentally friendly; but the 150 mile disablement must've been the brainchild of company executives and government bureaucrats - none of whom has ever towed cross-country. Even with full warranty, this adventure cost me $2500 out-of-pocket. If I have this happen next year, after the truck turns 5 years old, just the part cost for the DEF pump was over $1500. I see a full "delete" in my truck's immediate future...
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:57 PM   #4
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I am leaning strongly in that direction, Countryboy59. I support their stated objective of making diesels more environmentally friendly; but the 150 mile disablement must've been the brainchild of company executives and government bureaucrats - none of whom has ever towed cross-country. Even with full warranty, this adventure cost me $2500 out-of-pocket. If I have this happen next year, after the truck turns 5 years old, just the part cost for the DEF pump was over $1500. I see a full "delete" in my truck's immediate future...
The tuner can be used only in an emergency, to get you home. 😎
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:58 PM   #5
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I've got a similar DEF system on my 2017 GMC Duramax. I support it. Lots of different things can shut down your truck. You could say the same thing about your fuel pump, injectors, master brake cylinder, ECU, various warning harnesses, MAF, etc. etc. these trucks have many single points of failure.

DEF system, EGR & DPF are great things - small price to pay for not totally and utterly destroying the environment and quality of air that we all breath by spewing out unfiltered diesel exhaust gases and related particles.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:16 PM   #6
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I've got a similar DEF system on my 2017 GMC Duramax. I support it. Lots of different things can shut down your truck. You could say the same thing about your fuel pump, injectors, master brake cylinder, ECU, various warning harnesses, MAF, etc. etc. these trucks have many single points of failure.

DEF system, EGR & DPF are great things - small price to pay for not totally and utterly destroying the environment and quality of air that we all breath by spewing out unfiltered diesel exhaust gases and related particles.



I agree with their purpose and intent, but why not a 1,000 mile limit for disablement? That is my heartburn issue. At least give us time and space to get to our destination or back home. A DEF failure does not affect the driveability or safety of the vehicle. As for the other possible mechanical malfunctions - all part of the suspense and adventure of travel. But don't strand me on the side of an interstate because of some bureaucrat's arbitrary decision...
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:20 PM   #7
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Yup - agree with you on the distance for limp mode. 150 miles is nothing.

I suspect an update will come along to extend that after enough customer complaints.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:30 PM   #8
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I hope so. Central Pennsylvania is not exactly the wilderness, and yet we would've been stranded there for over three weeks if I had not taken drastic action. Imagine the DEF cutting you off somewhere out west or on the Alaskan highway...
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:19 PM   #9
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I agree with their purpose and intent, but why not a 1,000 mile limit for disablement? That is my heartburn issue. At least give us time and space to get to our destination or back home. A DEF failure does not affect the driveability or safety of the vehicle. As for the other possible mechanical malfunctions - all part of the suspense and adventure of travel. But don't strand me on the side of an interstate because of some bureaucrat's arbitrary decision...
Make your own choice. Less is more.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:17 PM   #10
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Unintended consequences. I suspect that you can thank the "rollin' coal" crew for the draconian limitations on operation without DEF systems functioning. Bureaucrats who don't understand that control systems can be effectively bypassed at least during the part of the year when inspections aren't required were horrified by sewer-pipe exhausts belching black soot.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:35 PM   #11
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We also had the DEF pump on our Ram die in San Antonio. We took it to a nearby Ram dealer when the check engine light came on and they told us the problem. They also told us it would take weeks to get the parts. We drove on, all the way to San Diego with no problem. It used no DEF the whole way, but never went into limp mode. In San Diego the dealer replaced the pump and the second one also didn’t work so they had to replace it again. They had the truck over a month, but fortunately most of that time we had flown back to Alaska for Christmas. The dealer finally got everything working. There was no cost to us - it was all under warranty. I’m curious how you ended up paying $2500 - that must have been ancillary costs? The DEF pump problem itself should be covered by Chrysler even when out of warranty as an emissions component.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:10 AM   #12
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I'm just curious how many miles you guys had on your trucks when this DEF pump failure took place. My 2017 has 25,000 miles and have plans for quite a bit of travel this summer. Just curious.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:16 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
Unintended consequences. I suspect that you can thank the "rollin' coal" crew for the draconian limitations on operation without DEF systems functioning. Bureaucrats who don't understand that control systems can be effectively bypassed at least during the part of the year when inspections aren't required were horrified by sewer-pipe exhausts belching black soot.
As a government bureaucrat I can assure you that they are not ignorant, just restricted in what they can do about it.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:52 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by AKNate View Post
We also had the DEF pump on our Ram die in San Antonio. We took it to a nearby Ram dealer when the check engine light came on and they told us the problem. They also told us it would take weeks to get the parts. We drove on, all the way to San Diego with no problem. It used no DEF the whole way, but never went into limp mode. In San Diego the dealer replaced the pump and the second one also didn’t work so they had to replace it again. They had the truck over a month, but fortunately most of that time we had flown back to Alaska for Christmas. The dealer finally got everything working. There was no cost to us - it was all under warranty. I’m curious how you ended up paying $2500 - that must have been ancillary costs? The DEF pump problem itself should be covered by Chrysler even when out of warranty as an emissions component.
What is the year of your RAM. Just curios. Thx!
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:41 AM   #15
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As a government bureaucrat I can assure you that they are not ignorant, just restricted in what they can do about it.
And that’s a good thing. There’s got to be a balance.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:03 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adiredneck View Post
I know many forum members like myself are using Ram 2500s and 3500s with the Cummins turbodiesel engines as our tow vehicles. They are a great vehicle and powertrain, and I love the way mine tows my 27FB Classic, buuuttttt... They have a serious Achilles Heel: The DEF system.


My DEF pump died on the way cross-country a couple weeks ago, and turned the trip into a real adventure. The problem is not that a DEF malfunction makes the truck unsafe or unusable; the issue is that, once a problem is sensed by the OBD system, the truck disables itself to 5 mph max with only 150 miles notice. For those of us who do long journeys with our Airstreams, this usually leaves us stranded a long way from home - as we were. And good luck finding a dealer to fix it or getting the parts in under a week! It is a ticking time bomb under the hood of every Ram/Cummins (and, I believe that Ford and GM diesels have a similar disabling software setting) - and an expensive one, even if covered under warranty.


For those interested in the details of our "adventure", they are chronicled under a different post:



http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...re-195427.html


Love the truck - hate the DEF system!
...never had any problems with either one of ours.....all diesel manufacturers use it
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:09 AM   #17
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I hope so. Central Pennsylvania is not exactly the wilderness, and yet we would've been stranded there for over three weeks if I had not taken drastic action. Imagine the DEF cutting you off somewhere out west or on the Alaskan highway...
Happened many times with big trucks.....and a refer loaded with veggies...and fruits....
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:12 AM   #18
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I agree with their purpose and intent, but why not a 1,000 mile limit for disablement?
150 miles is pretty bad for the reasons you described.

My GMC 2500 appears to be better at that, though I haven't run out of DEF yet or had a malfunction.

It gives several warnings before running out.

From the manual:
Quote:
If these warnings are ignored and
the DEF tank becomes empty, the DIC message displays:

EXHAUST FLUID EMPTY REFILL NOW - 805 KM (500 MI) UNTIL 105 KM/H (65 MPH) MAX SPEED.

The displayed mileage will decrease as driving continues. A warning light
also comes on.

When the mileage countdown is zero, the DIC message EXHAUST
FLUID EMPTY REFILL NOW - TRANSITIONING TO 105 KM/H (65 MPH) MAX SPEED displays. A warning light and a chime also
come on. Vehicle speed will be reduced to a maximum speed limit of 105 km/h (65 mph).

After the transition to 105 km/h
(65 mph) is complete, the DIC message displays:

EXHAUST FLUID EMPTY REFILL NOW - SPEED LIMITED TO 105 KM/H (65 MPH) –
120 KM (75 MI) UNTIL 89 KM/H (55 MPH) MAX SPEED.

The displayed mileage will decrease as driving continues. A warning light and a chime also come on.

When the mileage countdown is zero, the DIC message EXHAUST
FLUID EMPTY REFILL NOW - TRANSITIONING TO 89 KM/H (55 MPH) MAX SPEED displays.
A flashing warning light and a chime also come on. Vehicle speed will be reduced to a maximum speed limit of 89 km/h (55 mph).

After the transition to 89 km/h
(55 mph) is complete, the DIC message EXHAUST FLUID EMPTY REFILL NOW - SPEED LIMITED
TO 89 KM/H (55 MPH) – 120 KM
(75 MI) UNTIL 8 KM/H (5 MPH) MAX SPEED displays. The displayed
mileage will decrease as driving continues. A flashing warning light and a chime also come on.

When the mileage countdown is
zero, the DIC message EXHAUST FLUID EMPTY REFILL NOW - TRANSITIONING TO 8 KM/H
(5 MPH) MAX SPEED displays.
A flashing warning light and a chime also come on. Vehicle speed will be reduced to a maximum speed limit of 8 km/h (5 mph).
To summarize that:
Run out of DEF:
- you get 500 miles before dropping to 65 MPH
- you get an additional 75 miles before dropping to 55 MPH
- you get an additional 75 miles before dropping to 5 MPH

A total of 650 miles of DEF-less driving before you run into the crippling limit of 5 MPH. That's pretty good.
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:22 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Hans627 View Post
What is the year of your RAM. Just curios. Thx!


Ours is a 2014 and it happened around 35k.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:33 PM   #20
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My RAM service rep told me that DEF pump failure is often attributed to bad or contaminated DEF. I've read the same on various RAM forums.

We never use DEF other than MOPAR DEF purchased from a RAM dealer and always top it off with a 2.5 gallon container when the DEF level reaches half. RAM dealers have been given strict temperature guidelines for storing DEF, never let it get over 85F for sustained periods. We always keep our receipts.

2016 RAM 2500.
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