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Old 12-21-2007, 06:33 PM   #29
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mrmossyone, I'm glad your eye will be OK. Go with the goggles. Saftey glasses are fine most of the time, but with cut off tools and the like, goggles are the way to go.

KeithC, I'm not sure about Ford but I can speak for Dodge and I think most manufacturers handle modifications the same way. Generally, the modification will not automatically void your warranty. But, if the modification is what causes the failure it will void the warranty on the failed part and any other damage related to the failure.

Here is the official Dodge statement: ... your warranties do not cover any part that Chrysler did not supply or is not certified for use on your vehicle. Nor do they cover the costs of any repairs or adjustments that might be caused or needed because of the installation or use of such parts, components, equipment, materials, or additives.

For example, some diesel performance enhancements can cause burned pistons, rod and crank failures and premature clutch, transmission and driveline failures. If the manufacturer felt that your modifications were the culprit, then they could deny any warranty responsibility.
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Old 12-21-2007, 10:11 PM   #30
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Modifications

Hi, in most cases these mods only make it sound more powerful and are not proven. In some cases, you will have some improvements, but at a cost of more fuel used and higher [more expensive] fuel required. These chips can change shift points, fuel delivery, and ignition timing. Fancy air filters can, and have, ruined mass air flow sensors. Exhaust modifications can reduce, a much needed, back pressure; Therefore reduceing towing torque. Horsepower is for speed and torque is for pulling.
An example of Ford's "fly by wire" systems, many people say it doesn't feel like 300 HP, but put it on a dyno and it will have the advertised power. A computer modification and a throttle body modification change has been done [Hot Rod or Motor Trend] and now that Mustang will Burn rubber like crazy, but the horsepower is unchanged. [300HP] Quicker throttle responce.
Ford diesels: 7.3 L's were tough, 6.0 L's had minor problems from Ford and major problems from modifications done to them, 6.4 L's Ford says, you modify it, you bought it; So owners beware.
Finally, I might try some type of chip on my Navigator, but nothing else and I'm curious as to what it can do since I already have to use premium fuel.
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Old 12-21-2007, 10:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmossyone
Thanks for concern guys, i'm feeling much better today. Later.
Hi, hope you're OK. I, as a mechanic, had something removed from my eyes three times. I was lucky that I never got the drill. Another firm believer of eye protection.
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Old 12-21-2007, 10:26 PM   #32
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The engine shown here started life in 1931 with 40HP It's now putting out over 120HP. FYI, you could build three small block Chevrolets for the same price as building a good Model A engine![/quote]

Hi, I would prefer to have the Model A 4 banger rather than belong to the infamous 700 club. [small block 350 / turbo 350]
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Old 12-22-2007, 01:00 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS
Hi, in most cases these mods only make it sound more powerful and are not proven. In some cases, you will have some improvements, but at a cost of more fuel used and higher [more expensive] fuel required. These chips can change shift points, fuel delivery, and ignition timing. Fancy air filters can, and have, ruined mass air flow sensors. Exhaust modifications can reduce, a much needed, back pressure; Therefore reduceing towing torque. Horsepower is for speed and torque is for pulling.
An example of Ford's "fly by wire" systems, many people say it doesn't feel like 300 HP, but put it on a dyno and it will have the advertised power. A computer modification and a throttle body modification change has been done [Hot Rod or Motor Trend] and now that Mustang will Burn rubber like crazy, but the horsepower is unchanged. [300HP] Quicker throttle responce.
Ford diesels: 7.3 L's were tough, 6.0 L's had minor problems from Ford and major problems from modifications done to them, 6.4 L's Ford says, you modify it, you bought it; So owners beware.
Finally, I might try some type of chip on my Navigator, but nothing else and I'm curious as to what it can do since I already have to use premium fuel.
Well I went into this being sceptical so I did a lot of research and I think the particular combination I went with has without a doubt given me more horsepower and more low and midrange torque. I actually spoke in person with 2 engineers for 1 of these mods and on the phone with another. The engineers for Hypertech which is based here in the Memphis area told me that having a gasser where I would see the most improvement would be during towing w/ low and midrange torque. He said this without me asking about it, he also told me some people according to a dyno have gained as much as 30 horsepower and 30 ftlbs of torque although he said w/ the hemi that I should only expect 15-20 increase in both(which I automatically catalogued mentally as 10-15. Not to mention allowing me to program the truck to run more efficiently on 87 octane and change shift points(esp. useful during towing). I asked him about the 2-3 mpg claim of the store where I purchased the hypertech tuner/programmer and he said that would not happen, he told me I needed to think in terms of getting better miles per tank instead of miles per gallon w/ maybe a 1mpg increase. According to the engineer w/ Gibson Performance exhausts the particular exhaust I purchased, which he recomended according to the needs I gave him, would give me a fairly substantial increase in mid-range torque and hp(15-25). Also because of the design I would still keep that all important back pressure as well as a 1-3 mpg increase( I was thinking 1-1.5). The breather and throttle body spacer is debateable but they claim aw/ the combo of both a 20-30 hp increase and torque gain w/2mpg increase. I mentally cut all of the increase claims in half before I purchased with the exception of what the Hypertech engineers told me. They spent a good deal of time explaining things to me and even did some programming on my tuner to try and give me increases in the areas I was specifically looking for at no extra charge. They also told me their product is really designed w/ deisel engines in mind and they give substantially more increases in a deisel, they said as much as 4-5 times what you will achieve with a gasser.

As I stated before the only emperical evidence I have so far is that before the mods my posi-traction hemi w/ tow package would hardly spin the tires even one or two revolutions before gaining traction and launching(which in a drag race is a good thing as you don't want to spin) and now with the tires good and heated up it will smoke the tires and fishtail sideways before achieving traction. I am remaining positive and thinking good thoughts right now in the hopes that I will achieve a 3-4 mpg increase on the highway but will still be happy w/ 2-3mpg increase. My wife will bean me if I don't get some mpg increase after spending all of this money and I am positive that I will gain at the very least a 1-2 mpg increase. Even with that I'll be happy as it sounds bad a$$ and satisfies that primal need for more power ifn I want to romp on the go pedal, which I have to admit has always been a strong urge in me and it's a lot of fun. I've actually been very proud of myself for being very sparingly with my natural redneckitus when it comes to MOPOWER , I only did two "tests" as I need to save gas and tires. I'll keep y'all posted. Later.
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Old 12-22-2007, 03:51 PM   #34
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Interesting. It will be hardly definable as to the improvements if the measure is spining tires and fish tailing. This could mean your engine rev's faster sooner. And that usually means at a loss of MPG. Or you may have the best ever combo for your use. With out some controlled data prior to the change, it would be a guess as to determine what the change actually accomplished.

Powertrains are designed with a broad range of applications in mind and complying with a cost budget constraint. In all reality what we are attempting to do is do engine mods to tailer the design for our usage. Computer controls do this with greater accuracy then mechanical designs from the past. However there are some limits since the buyers in mass do not want to spend money on designs that cross their personal thresh hold. And that thresh hold changes from time to time. When the economy is heated the buying public are more willing to spend money on a product.

For me personally I would like to know what the starting point is to determine whether a changes actually went in the direction I wanted.

Just some thoughts.

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Old 12-22-2007, 03:56 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmossyone
. According to the literature I should be increasing gas mileage by 4-6 mpg .
I want a follow-up report on your fuel mileage. A gain of 4 to 6 MPG just sounds too unreasonable. Good luck.
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Old 12-22-2007, 11:56 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRICKEYDOG
I want a follow-up report on your fuel mileage. A gain of 4 to 6 MPG just sounds too unreasonable. Good luck.
My thoughts exactly, that's why I'm only hoping for 2-3 mpg increase and thanks I can use all the luck I can get.
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Old 12-23-2007, 12:07 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Action
Interesting. It will be hardly definable as to the improvements if the measure is spining tires and fish tailing. This could mean your engine rev's faster sooner. And that usually means at a loss of MPG. Or you may have the best ever combo for your use. With out some controlled data prior to the change, it would be a guess as to determine what the change actually accomplished.

Powertrains are designed with a broad range of applications in mind and complying with a cost budget constraint. In all reality what we are attempting to do is do engine mods to tailer the design for our usage. Computer controls do this with greater accuracy then mechanical designs from the past. However there are some limits since the buyers in mass do not want to spend money on designs that cross their personal thresh hold. And that thresh hold changes from time to time. When the economy is heated the buying public are more willing to spend money on a product.

For me personally I would like to know what the starting point is to determine whether a changes actually went in the direction I wanted.

Just some thoughts.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
Why would my engine rev faster sooner if I didn't change that particular aspect of my computers programming? I did not do a before and after dyno test but I have very little doubt that it is producing more power as I did do a before and after "race" with my neighbor in his 6oo hp heavily modified dodge deisel. I fared much better after the mods and yes I realize that it is possible that his truck simply didn't perform as well but I doubt that was the case. I realize as far as power goes that mostly these are seat of the pants feelings but at the present time I am unwilling to spend a couple hundred dollars to do dyno testing. I am most concerned with fuel mileage( the added power/torque is just a bonus and fun) and can eventually produce my own empirical data on that as I know the before mods mpg and can eventually measure after mods mpg. At least I believe this to be the case. Thanks for your thoughts, keep em coming as I am by no means an engineer/mechanic/programmer/etc./etc./etc..
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:14 AM   #38
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Question Real World

One thing I have always done with all our vehicles is keep an accurate

mpg record. (no dic here... the old fashioned way mi./gal.) To me, it's the

best way to ward off potential problems.

After the Burb had approx. 5k on the clock I decided on a few up-grades

with the idea of improving overall performance. They included a Banks

Powerpack- (stainless headers and 4" exhaust), cold air intake. Accell 300 CD

double strike ignition and high output coil, w/ cap & rotor, Jacobs Silicone

plug wires, w/ Bosch +4 platinum plugs. Jet-6pack programable computer

chip and 160 degree stainless thermostat. I also started using synthetic

oil at that time. Now realize this is on a 95,7.4, 3:78,4wd Suburban

without most of the more sophisticated modern improvements.

A very noticeable improvement when towing, and an overall 1.3-3mpg

improvement. A large investment,(2k+), for a relativley small gain.

BUT..we are still towing, spread that out over 12yrs & 160k+.

Bottom line.....it may have been worth it for us, but surely not for for

everyone. Do the research, don't believe all the hype, and then.........

go ahead and do it anyway, after all you've already made up your mind

haven't ya!!
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Old 12-23-2007, 02:39 PM   #39
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:04 PM   #40
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I might not get it but it still seems to me that the best way to save gas, and vehicle in general is to not pull a vaccume (the one benhind the RV). The same thing that holds a plane up is holding you back as you go faster. So the aerodynamics of the old Aairstreams are better than the new I think. The new Airstreams are better than the SOB's. This is not to say I know much about it, I don't. But I know that my milage goes up about 3 mpg when I travel at 55 compared to 65-70.
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Old 12-27-2007, 04:08 PM   #41
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Money spent=$1,000.00
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Old 12-27-2007, 04:26 PM   #42
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I am new to this forum, but being automotive enthusiast with some (unused professionally) mechanical diplomas, I have to straight some facts in this discussion. If I double somebody's reply, I am sorry but I don't have the time to study all 3 pages here. So some technical facts:
-there is no free lunch. Manufacturers design engines for best performance, longevity and allowable pollution. If you adjust one of those parameters, you are going to mess up the other as well.
-the mentioned K&N filters do allow more air to the engine, simply because they have bigger holes than most OEM filters. That allow more dirt entering the engine, shortening its life. If you really value performance more, than longevity, why not remove all filters?
-some engines are poorly design. Old blocks have been famous for almost doubling its output by few modifications. That in era of computers became absolute, but to some degree still exist. I own 2 engines made at the turn of Millennium. 6.7 liter Ford Powerstroke generate 230 HP, while 5.5 liter Mercedes 342 HP. The Ford engine weigh 900 lb, the Mercedes about 400 lb.
The Powerstroke is diesel engine, so there is some different expectations here, but both engines have similar life expectancy.
Bottom line, the 230 HP engine doesn't have to weight 1/2 ton in 21 Century.
Coming back to modification. Powerstroke is engine easy to modify. Some enthusiasts modify 230 HP engine to pump over 500 HP. But they don't want to worry about economy, or longevity.
It is their money.
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