Possible to 're-rate' a TV after mods?

[mmccurdy]

Hello, first post! (woo!)

Just a quick question for now -- I have an 07 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, which I love, but it has a relatively low tow rating of 3500lbs. It has a 116" wheelbase, a 3.8L V6, and the running gear seems at least as beefy as, say, a Jeep Liberty or Nissan XTerra, which are both rated to tow 5000lbs.

I really have my eye on the newer 16' and 19' International CCD trailers, and by the numbers it seems like I would be limited to the 16' which has a 3500lb. GVWR (and not too much carrying capacity at that). From what I read, it seems like even that might be pushing it since it's right at the rated limit for the Jeep.

Here's the wrinkle: I like the Jeep enough that I would be willing to do some fairly extensive modifications (beef up the suspension, re-gear, there's even a shop that will put a 5.7L Hemi in one of these rigs, which is not entirely off the table...) in order to effectively be able to tow a 19' trailer w/ a dry weight of 3500lbs. (4200lbs. loaded?) I'm gradually convincing myself that this might be possible to do safely, though probably expensive.

Assuming I can work out the practical/safety issues of doing this, I would then be worried about insurance and/or legal implications, since I would be technically exceeding the manufacturer's recommendation. Would it be possible to get a vehicle engineer to look at a setup, provide recommendations, etc. and then somehow re-rate or re-certify the new rig for a higher capacity? I know of at least one aftermarket outfitter who is selling (presumably road legal) modified Wranglers with a GVWR close to 10,000lbs, so I have to assume the manufacturer's specs are not completely set in stone.

Anyone have any experience with this kind of thing? Also, an answer such as "your nuts" would be acceptable... Thanks, and I'm looking forward to being part of the forum.

[2airishuman]

hi mmccurdy and welcome to the forums...

first let's clear up something....

"your nuts"?

ok, we all feel betta...

IF you really are worried about the insurance/legal implications stop thinking outside the box, and stick to the script...

because it really is 'your nuts!' on the hook...

but that would be boring.

there is no issue money can't modify and with enough you surely could make the w'angler' a safe/adequate tv....

with an automotive engineers brains and a cali tuner shop ne thing is doable.

BUT would you still "love" the w'angler?

do you understand WHY you like it so much?

altering suspension, frame, powerplant, brakes and towing bits WILL change how the jeep feels and functions in everyday driving.

without changing the legal "risk" issues one iota....

you've not mentioned how you expect to use the a/s but i'll speculate...

week end getaways, occasional 4-6 day trips but NO epic safaris....

it would cost less and involve minimal liability, to just find/buy an older tow mule just for the bambi...

besides there are some pretty cool near retro used tv out there...

that you might 'love' as much as the w'angler....

cheers
2air'

no doubt others will go into the real world tow capacity limits (of the limited) and the true weight of these bambis,

but the bambis have very little carry capacity,

so IF you plan to take toys camping (bikes, boats, atvs, roller blades) the added cargo capability of an old mule is another plus

[Jim Clark]

Welcome to the forum,you’re not nuts, but investing that much money and time for an outcome which may not be what you want and will bring legal issues your way if you have an accident seems like doing it the hard way. Wheel base is the 600 lb gorilla of towing which you did not address. You might want to find a more suitable TV and do the modifications which you feel are necessary, a vintage suburban or panel truck. Upgrading something with a longer wheelbase will let you move to a longer trailer in the future if you so desire. I admire your wiliness to do what is necessary to get what you want.

[mmccurdy]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

IF you really are worried about the insurance/legal implications stop thinking outside the box, and stick to the script...

because it really is 'your nuts!' on the hook...

Hahah.... sorry about that -- "you're nuts" was the answer I meant to solicit!

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

do you understand WHY you like it so much?

altering suspension, frame, powerplant, brakes and towing bits WILL change how the jeep feels and functions in everyday driving.

Yeah I should elaborate: I have already lifted it and installed larger tires, since my primary purpose for going with the Wrangler in the first place was to use it as it was intended -- that is, to go off road, mainly on multi-day treks. It seems like most of the mods that I would consider would actually improve the off road characteristics, with the exception of returning to near-stock tire size to reduce stress on the driveline. At this point I have a significant investment in the Jeep, which is really astonishingly capable off road, but also rides very nicely on the highway. That plus all the other "Wrangler-only" benefits, like removable doors and top, etc. are my motivations for wanting to stick with the Jeep if possible.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

you've not mentioned how you expect to use the a/s but i'll speculate...

week end getaways, occasional 4-6 day trips but NO epic safaris....

Heh... actually... my wife and I are thinking of living in it for a year

I'm actually not joking. Hence the desire for the 19'. But you're right that a Hemi swap at close to $10k is enough to just outright buy a second vehicle with some miles on it, so maybe that's the way to look at it... thanks for the thoughts...

[TomR]

Try an FJ Cruiser ...has a tow rating of 5,000#...and run the Rubicon stock (maybe w/better tires).

Tom R

[CanoeStream]

Ratings are important to the handling characteristics in dry or inclement weather. They become much more important in sudden or emergency maneuvers/braking. Wheelbase doesn't have a neon billboard saying "Important towing fact!" -- with short wheelbase the tow has a much better chance of taking over driving from the tow vehicle. The FJ Cruiser is 106" wheelbase. That's giving up 10" from what you already have.

A 16' will seem mighty cramped on a rainy day. Be sure to walk through any variety of Airstreams. Lay down in the beds. Buy the Airstream you like best -- you'll have it much longer than any tow vehicle. Then follow the advice to get a matched tow vehicle. You'll be happier and your family will be safer.

[Denis4x4]

I have an '04 Unlimited and tow a pontoon boat when I'm not 'wheeling in SW Colorado. It's been my observation that top end popups and another THOR product, the T@B are the trailers of choice for going off road. The new FJ may have 5,000# towing capacity, but you can't see where you're going or where you've been. Another idea may be to go with an old Cherokee with the 348 AM V-8 and longer WB.

I pulled a 1954 Cabana TT half way down the Hole in the Rock trail in SE Utah with an old Scrambler without any problems.

[silverback]

Have you looked at the two new sport model Safaris? Narrower, lighter and less expensive. We saw them in person a couple weeks back and they're nicer then I thought. Probably a better fit for taking off pavement too.
-KL

[lsinclair]

I concur with 2air; the time and $$$ will buy a solid TV, letting you go for the 19 footer. In addition to the other posts, the short wheel base on your Wrangler would present some handling issues not to mention passing the smog inspections. With many mods, there always fine tuning to do. I'd rather be camping than working out the bugs on a mod. Good luck, Larry

[CCD4US]

I tow a 16' CCD with an FJ and won't want anything long then that considering the short wheel base of the FJ.

[safari 28]

My only comment is living for a year in a 19 footer. I am on 35 days with my wife in a 28 foot safari. We love the rig, but she is lookig forward to her very big home for at least a couple of months. I hope your marriage is strong as your conviction to make that jeep work. Good luck partner.

[thecatsandi]

Originally Posted by mmccurdy

I'm actually not joking. Hence the desire for the 19'. But you're right that a Hemi swap at close to $10k is enough to just outright buy a second vehicle with some miles on it, so maybe that's the way to look at it... thanks for the thoughts...

Living in something that smal has been done. How is the strength of your relationship?
The Jeep is not a good TV. Need something beefier. A larger traielr would be recommended. I went from a 2400 sq ft house to a 240 sq ft trailer. I gave up a lot. It was worth it. Consider the loss of space.

[Jim Clark]

If your marriage is strong and you have a good relationship then you can live in something that small, but then again if your marriage is strong and you have a good relationship and you live in something that small it won’t belong before you need a bigger trailer.

[Antique Pedaler]

This is heresy, but I'd suggest you leave your cool Jeep alone and look at a Fleetwood Evolution camper for real off-road back country camping.

[Silvertwinkie]

I modded my Chevy sedan to on paper be able to tow at least 8000lbs, up from its 5000lb rating.

I modded these items:

Engine managment (better fuel to air ratios via PCM=more HP and torque)
3.73 gears
Alum/composite drive shaft
Added a second air to oil cooler
Added a ram air torque converter cooler
Adjusted the torque converter to lock sooner than later
Added trans temp gauge
Added brake airflow air dam up front to cool front brakes better
Added K&N air filter, TB bypass, airfoil, OBD1 PCM, and on and on and on.

The car could have moved my house.

But the one thing I couldn't do was lengthen the frame for more wheelbase, heavily modify the body to accomidate the longer frame, put a 10 to 12 bolt rear end in (not enough space for a full floater back there) or put a more stout trans in it...upgrade to 4l80e from a 4l60e (again not enough space.

What I'm trying to say is that I could increase the horsepower, torque and cooling capacities, but it would have been difficult, if not impossible to modify the overall characteristics of the stance, load and personalities designed into the car itself (frame construction, wheelbase, etc).

So yes, you can mod the car to have better HP, torque, cooling, etc, but you won't be able to modify (very easily) the other parts of the equation that really, truely also count. Of course, if you are towing a 19' Bambi, the first part of the equation is really all you need to worry about....larger, then part two comes into play, as I found out going from a 19' Bambi to a 25' Safari.

[Gene]

mm, I agree with most of the advice here. If you are a fan of offroading, will an Airstream go there? (my answer for 4 wheeling: No!) Some years ago, with some of the same thoughts I tried a truck camper to go places I wouldn't tow anything. The camper was poorly constructed and went back to the dealer. First issue—quality. The RV manufacturing market is fractionalized—lots of innovation, but many quality issues with small manufacturers. If you want to 4 wheel, take a tent. Airstreams aren't perfect, but far fewer quality issues than a lot of campers.

I think if money is an issue (isn't it always?), 2air's suggestion of a second hand TV is a good one. Then you have a vehicle that can tow an Airstream and one that can go to remote and beautiful and quiet places with that tent. A V8 Toyota 4Runner will tow a Bambi, but not much more, and is an excellent 4 wheeler.

Don't underestimate the effect on a relationship of a small trailer. Barb and I love each other, have been together for 21 years, have withstood my incessant house remodeling, but that small camper was hard on us—and that was only a few days. Everyone has a different tolerance for limited space and that tolerance usually decreases over time. If you are only using it in warm climates and can live outside most of the time, you won't get in each other's way, but two people trying to pass each other in the galley over and over can be a test.

Size—yours. Check out whether you fit on the toilet, in the bed. Airstream beds are smaller than standard—doubles are mostly 48" wide, for example. Do you want to take a shower in with the toilet and bath sink, or would you rather have a separate shower?—those aren't all that big either. Do you want to sleep on dinette cushions (looks uncomfortable to me) and make and unmake the bed every day so you can use the table? How long before that gets old?

Bambis (and the new Safari Sport) aren't for more than a couple of days boondocking. Little potable water and black and grey water capacity. Showers fill up the grey water very fast and are impossible unless you are in a campground. A Jeep has little storage too and long term storage of food, clothes, gear, tools, requires bringing a storage shed along (maybe an air drop).

We ended up buying a new truck and getting a 25' Safari FB. It's still kinda tight, but we refused to get anything longer and more expensive. It's a compromise. We sure liked the 27' though.

As you go through all the threads you find the 80% recommendation. All weight ratings—there are a lot of them to consider—are advised to be reduced to 80% or so for safety and reducing wear and tear on both vehicles. Tongue weight can, I think, be a bit more than 80%—more like 90%. On a completely rebuilt vehicle, any tow ratings will be total conjecture unless you're a mechanical engineer with access to a testing lab.

I really wanted to believe my older truck would tow a 25', but all I would be able to save was the truck body if I were inclined to start modifying.

Now you can read about tow vehicles and enter the endless argument over Toyota vs. GM vs. Ford vs. Dodge. We all really do love our trucks! But select the trailer that fits both of your lifestyles first, then find the TV that can tow it well and safely.

Welcome to the forum. In about 6 weeks I've learned than I ever imagined and knew how to question a salesman. Take your time and do your research—amongst all that aluminum at a dealership all reason can disappear. Note how many recent model Bambis are for sale on the classifieds here and elsewhere—there's got to be a reason for that.

Gene

[ljmiii]

Originally Posted by mmccurdy

Here's the wrinkle: I like the Jeep enough that I would be willing to do some fairly extensive modifications (beef up the suspension, re-gear, there's even a shop that will put a 5.7L Hemi in one of these rigs, which is not entirely off the table...) in order to effectively be able to tow a 19' trailer w/ a dry weight of 3500lbs. (4200lbs. loaded?)

With its 116" wheelbase the Wrangler Unlimited is a good choice for such a program - it is longer than most of the 5000lb rated vehicles out there and even longer than the 109" 7200lb tow rated Jeep Grand Cherokee.

If you don't have the 4.10 axle you will want that upgrade. And you will need to upgrade the powertrain - 205HP and 240 ftlbs of torque won't cut it - but don't need to drop in a Hemi. You may also need to beef up the hitch connection to your frame.

I tow a 16' Bambi (3500lbs) with my Toyota Highlander Hybrid (107" & 3500lbs) and it tows like a dream. This is partly because Toyota chose to give the HiHy the same 3500 rating it gave the normal Highlander but the HiHy has about 50 extra HP and a LOT more torque (the electric motors give max torque starting at 0 RPM). But it is also partly because the Equal-i-zer hitch is quite stable.

Originally Posted by mmccurdy

I know of at least one aftermarket outfitter who is selling (presumably road legal) modified Wranglers with a GVWR close to 10,000lbs, so I have to assume the manufacturer's specs are not completely set in stone.

In the US, tow ratings seem more to be a battle between legal and marketing than an engineering opinion. At this point you may do better to look at Wrangler forums or one of the canadian companies that specialize in 'converting' cars into tow vehicles to better understand what is possible.

[ljmiii]

Though we love our Bambi I'm not sure it is the right choice for off road adventures. But if you do end up going with a 16' Bambi and intend to take it on less than stellar roads you really should upgrade your tires. You can upgrade from 215/75R14 LR Cs to 225/75R15 LR Ds without upgrading your axle by getting a 15" wheel that matches the 14" wheel pattern and has sufficient PSI and rim weight ratings. Or you can upgrade the axles as well - Airstream at Jackson Center will do this for about $2000.



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[bobkelly]

mmc----Welcome to the forums. You've already received some good input, so I'll stick to your question aboutt "re-rating". Yes, you can improve the Jeep's capabilities as a tow vehicle, but not in the sense where Chrysler will grant you a bigger number rating. The manufactures rate their vehicles using their own criteria. Maybe in the future there will be an independent agency that establishes ratings for the automakers using a generally accepted standard from SAE or ASTM or some other professional societies/organizations.

Good luck on your quest to have fun with the Jeep and an Airstream.

[ljmiii]

Originally Posted by ljmiii

At this point you may do better to look at Wrangler forums or one of the canadian companies that specialize in 'converting' cars into tow vehicles to better understand what is possible.

When I wrote the message I was headed out the door and didn't have time to look up this link - Welcome to Can-Am RV Centre: Home