Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg, Audi Q7 owners

[Knuff]

Thanks Jerry -

Yes, after a first panic attach, we are back to "normal"

Checking car dealerships was no fun and nothing was convincing.

After contemplating we will look into making some of the mods (ohiobrits: battery and inverter relocation) and LT tires, ditching the spare. I will give Andy a call tomorrow. I somehow hope that a local hitch shop will be able to fabricate the pipe (it requires some special equipment for bending I think), or perhaps CanAm can ship it (unsure). The goal is to bring the tongue weight down to the Cayenne specs and to use a light weight WD hitch (not the EqualiZer that we currently have) so that we are not only safe from the point of view of many but also safe from any liability issues.

[Knuff]

And - I am sorry that I hijacked my own thread. Let's go back to the fun experiences. If people don't mind, I will post updates on our progress and of course, hope to be able to report direct comps between our F150 experience this weekend (it was ok ) and the first steps with the new setup (hope is running high)

[Ohiobrits]

Knuff - sounds like you are going through some of the same decisions most of us are or have gone through.

A few things.
The Touareg / Cayenne receiver was rated to 770 lbs a few years ago. Not sure why it changed but remember in Europe there is no WD so dropping almost 800lbs back there with no WD would be a handful. I would not want to tow like that at all. Don't know, but I suspect the limit has as much to do with handling dynamics as it does with receiver strength (up to a point).

I towed my 27FB back from the dealers at 900lbs tongue with no mods (but with WD) and nothing happened, receiver did not fall off....

Your dealer appears to be super conservative. If he is that up tight he should be measuring the actual tongue weight of each AS prior to hitching up (the "catalogue" tongue weights are a guide at best), have you run over a CAT scale to make sure you are within tire, axle and TV payload limits. Receiver rating is just one piece of the puzzle. Maybe they had some issues with customer complaints relative to setup / ratings.

In contrast, my dealer had a few customers and a business associate (looking to start an AS rental business) come over to see my rig. It was definitely a novelty. They were not concerned with ratings of any kind (tires, payload, hitch). They just made sure everything was (kinda) level. They made sure I knew how to hitch and unhitch (they made me run through the process whilst they watched). I got some advice on brake controller set up (6V) and then was sent on my way.

Nobody on here can tell you what you should do - that's your decision but you are going about it the right way i.e. making sure you have all the info. I have no regrets picking the Cayenne as my TV.

Good luck.

[TCwheels]

I warned my dealer I was going to be driving away with non-traditional setup. Their response was "we're not the towing police"


WBCCI #7246 Michigan Unit,Texas Hill Country Unit (associate member), AIR #91367

[Ohiobrits]

Knuff, out of interest which F150 did they give you? Turbo 6 gasser or V8? What size wheels did it come with?

[Tom_T]

I was talking on Sat at the Steve McQueen Car Show fundraiser for Boys' Republic in Chino Hills CA with one of our vintage trailer folks who tows their vintage 22' +/- Holiday House at 3500# wet/loaded he thinks (not aerodynamic if you've seen them), with his 2006 Taureg V8 (4.2L) & he doesn't even both using the EZ-Lift or Reese type WD/AS hitch he has with it, & has no problems - & they tow from SoCal to Pismo & other longish trips to vintage trailer rallies with it & is very happy with the T-reg V8 as both an "extra car" & TV. He installed his hitch & brake controller himself with no mods as with the CanAm set-up.

We actually talked with him at the Pismo vintage rally 2-3 years back about towing our Avion T20 (which is aerodynamic & about the same wet/loaded weight or less) with one of the T-reg/Cay-S/Q7 V8 or diesel Triad.

One thing another AirForums member on here who is also a Porsche dealer service tech warned me about, is that the CanAm strut could damage the rear suspension sub-assemly's mounting bushings - if the forward strut link added by CanAm from the hitch to the Cay/T-reg/Q7 at the rear suspesion framing, by putting that suspension sub-assembly under torque stress, & essentially thereby putting added side pressure on the rubber bushings mounting it to the uni-body.

In the pix posted here & elsewhere for that mod, it appears to be the case. He said it would be better to mount that to a uni-body hard point made to take the stress from the WD & receiver.

So that's something else to consider.

[RivetingTrvl]

We have never done as much research for a vehicle as we did for the TV for our 2013 Int'l Sig 30FB.

Didn't like the pickup truck route, so we tried all the Euro-diesels & Jeep GC ecodiesel. Had a deposit on a GL-350, when I (the wife) reluctantly decided to bite the bullet and go look at a 2015 F150 EcoBoost. It had the most beautiful panoramic moonroof! It matched the Airstream! It not only had heated seats -- it had AIR-CONDITIONED seats! So much floor room in the back seat for our 2 littles. Not to mention the cool disco colors you can choose for the interior ambient lights.

Not to be all fluffy, the truck comes with awesome bells and whistles that make it super easy for towing our 30' AS -- integrated brake controller and exterior lights.

Ultimately, it was a joint decision to choose the TV, but DH wanted to be certain that I was happy with it and I love driving it! Never thought I'd be a Ford Truck Girl -- EVER!

[Knuff]

Originally Posted by Ohiobrits

Knuff, out of interest which F150 did they give you? Turbo 6 gasser or V8? What size wheels did it come with?

It was the V6, Sterling. Ride was ok but very stiff compared to the Cayenne. But it was a different trailer as well. I am actively pursuing the Cayenne route with the goal of hitting the road in 3 weeks. Had a good talk with Andy this morning. Trying to get a 200Ah Li battery installed in the under-dinette compartment in the back by then as well plus Michelin tires, hitch reinforcement and an Easylift with some mods from CanAm. Will post updates as the journey continues....


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[rocco52]

Hello Knuff,

Let me explain what I have learned so far in towing my 25FB with an Audi Q7. For those reading this post that do not know, the Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne, and VW Touareg are all built on the same platform and can use similar engines, transmissions and suspensions. I work for Audi and have inspected the underpinnings of all three in the last month. Our Shop Foreman worked for ,and was trained by, Audi AG in Germany for 10 years. In a prior post it was mentioned that the Can-Am method of bracing would put stresses on components that were not designed for it. This is absolutely true. A long phone call to one of his engineer friends at Audi in Germany confirmed this and also explained how WD hitches actually work. Because of this I have been working to get the tongue weight down near the 661# that the hitch is rated for instead. "Weight Distributing Hitch# is a misnomer. They do not transfer weight. They transfer load. The tongue weight remains the same. What happens is the load is transferred in order to bring the TV and trailer to level and thereby provide optimum braking and handling, especially in emergency situations. I bought a tire storage bag with handle and move the spare under the rear dinette (-52#) and then put it in the back of the Audi while camped. I removed one of the propane bottles (-55#) when I discovered how little was used just running the refrigerator and water heater. I am planning to replace the batteries with AGM units and mount them under the rear dinette storage area (-90#). You need to add the weight of the WD hitch head, in my case 60#. That will puts me at 695# (832-197+63). I ordered a Sureline Tongue weight scale to be more exact. I believe that by repositioning things while towing I can get to the amount that the hitch is rated for and be above the 10% recommended hitch weight for the trailer (5500# plus 800# of gear and water. I believe this is the safest way to go about it.

[Antique Pedaler]

This discussion has been on and off and on again at least since we bought our '11 Touareg new. Vee Dub handed out some 770# hitch weight stickers in about 2012 to replace the 661# rating...if that's any help to anyone. Although we use an equal-I-zer hitch on our stock receiver, this photo doesn't really count as we're on he road with the Bambi.


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[Knuff]

How come that VW "upgraded" the receiver? Also, why are the Cayenne's stickers show a 616 lbs tongue weight rating? Aren't they all the same Westfalia build parts or are there distinct differences? If they are all the same, why the differences in rating? The tow capacity of the cars is identical at 7,600 lbs I believe, right?

[Knuff]

Originally Posted by rocco52

Hello Knuff,

Let me explain what I have learned so far in towing my 25FB with an Audi Q7. For those reading this post that do not know, the Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne, and VW Touareg are all built on the same platform and can use similar engines, transmissions and suspensions. I work for Audi and have inspected the underpinnings of all three in the last month. Our Shop Foreman worked for ,and was trained by, Audi AG in Germany for 10 years. In a prior post it was mentioned that the Can-Am method of bracing would put stresses on components that were not designed for it. This is absolutely true. A long phone call to one of his engineer friends at Audi in Germany confirmed this and also explained how WD hitches actually work. Because of this I have been working to get the tongue weight down near the 661# that the hitch is rated for instead. "Weight Distributing Hitch# is a misnomer. They do not transfer weight. They transfer load. The tongue weight remains the same. What happens is the load is transferred in order to bring the TV and trailer to level and thereby provide optimum braking and handling, especially in emergency situations. I bought a tire storage bag with handle and move the spare under the rear dinette (-52#) and then put it in the back of the Audi while camped. I removed one of the propane bottles (-55#) when I discovered how little was used just running the refrigerator and water heater. I am planning to replace the batteries with AGM units and mount them under the rear dinette storage area (-90#). You need to add the weight of the WD hitch head, in my case 60#. That will puts me at 695# (832-197+63). I ordered a Sureline Tongue weight scale to be more exact. I believe that by repositioning things while towing I can get to the amount that the hitch is rated for and be above the 10% recommended hitch weight for the trailer (5500# plus 800# of gear and water. I believe this is the safest way to go about it.

So if you go with all the recommendation, why is a WD system then needed as this is also not recommended. I see the point about putting stress on the attachment point under the car. Would be interesting to hear Andy's thoughts on this. But would this not mean that the metal bar is being bend by the extra load when in normal use? What would the load be because the main load will still be with the original receiver attachment structure - I guess it is difficult to measure. Also, in the real world, have people towing with this modification experienced issues?

[rocco52]

The sticker on the factory installed Q7 hitch shows Max Tongue Weight 661, WD 661, Weight Carrying 661, so it safe to say that they allow WD hitches as long as the tongue weight does not exceed 661#. The WD Hitch, or more correctly referred to as "Anti-Sway Hitch" is a very useful tool in leveling out the trailer and TV so that the braking and handling are improved and made more safe as I understand it.

[Knuff]

Just for the fun of it:

Google the following phrase "Porsche cayenne diesel Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs) : 1157"

[Tom_T]

Different years have/had different tow ratings - more earlier & less now - probably more to do with CYA on warranties than anything else, since the mechanicals are close enough between the years/series of the 3 T/C/Q, but the longer 3-row seats Q7 is heavier, so it makes sense it would be less than the T/C cousins.

Some of the USA mid-2000's Cayenne owners manuals & service manuals show 2 ratings - weight bearing & distributed with the latter higher for HW.

In Euro-land they don't allow WD hitches largely due to political manuevers, so they build smaller & lighter & less sturdy trailers instead. ...well that makes perfect sense to me! ...not!!!

There is an accepted US SAE or other US official tow rating test scheme which requires the TV to pull up hill, stop downhill, etc. to certain standards, & Porsche has rated their Cayennes with it for several years now - I think since 2006 or 2008 IIRC. I'd guess that VW & Audi do the same. But that doesn't restrict them from downsizing whatever they pass at. I don't think that any of the Big 3 rate their vaunted trucks with this official standard, but I think it becomes a requirement in 2016 or 2020.

The German TUV (like US-DOT) has had tow rating standards & testing to qualify since the 1970s or 1980s, & the German mfgrs all have to get their tow ratings approved by them for the Euro applications. That's how the Porsche 928 (V8) was rated to tow up to 4100# & change in private TV use for TT, HTs, etc. (i.e. not for commercial trailers, which were limited to about 3500# IIRC). Porsche had tow mirrors, tow bar & electricals (Euro) in the 928 options & accessories catalogs.

I suggest using the rating for the TV of these 3 cousins that you own/buy, but WD is NOT a problem with or without the hitch reinforcement, but do check the whole hitch assy. regularly - which you're supposed to be doing on any TV anyway!

Also note that the factory hitch for these 3 also need to be programmed into the vehicles' computers, & then it automatically sets the trans remapping & engine parameters into the tow mode whenever you hitch up (similar to pushing the tow button on the shift lever of F150s, but it's automatic). As far as I know, the aftermarket hitches will not do this, but I'm not positive - & that's part of why the factory units are more than a Reese or Uhaul etc..

So if you self-install the factory hitch package, take it to the dealer to have it reset (or an independent with the proper equipment & knowledge).

Sunset Porsche in FL sells the Porsche Cayenne hitches for a better price than most dealers - unless you force them into a price match - & they may also sell the factory T-reg & Q7 hitches too.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

LOL - Very clever the way this "Big Truck" type sneaks in the F150 advert by leading it with "... so we tried all the Euro-diesels ...."!!

Even when the OP starts a thread asking not to go off hijacking this Cay/T-reg/Q7 thread, there always has to be the invasion of the big truck only crowd! Same thing happened when I started a thread asking for Cayenne tow folks for experience & didn't mind at all a few MBZ & Bmer folks in addition to these 3 cousins - but the big truck only crowd needs to get couseling or a 12 step - I mean really!

OK - so she's a big truck gal now, go sell them on the F150 thread please & leave this to the C/T/Q interested folks!

That's my 2 cents!
Tom
///////

Originally Posted by RivetingTrvl

We have never done as much research for a vehicle as we did for the TV for our 2013 Int'l Sig 30FB.

Didn't like the pickup truck route, so we tried all the Euro-diesels & Jeep GC ecodiesel. Had a deposit on a GL-350, when I (the wife) reluctantly decided to bite the bullet and go look at a 2015 F150 EcoBoost. It had the most beautiful panoramic moonroof! It matched the Airstream! It not only had heated seats -- it had AIR-CONDITIONED seats! So much floor room in the back seat for our 2 littles. Not to mention the cool disco colors you can choose for the interior ambient lights.

Not to be all fluffy, the truck comes with awesome bells and whistles that make it super easy for towing our 30' AS -- integrated brake controller and exterior lights.

Ultimately, it was a joint decision to choose the TV, but DH wanted to be certain that I was happy with it and I love driving it! Never thought I'd be a Ford Truck Girl -- EVER!

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by rocco52

Hello Knuff,

Let me explain what I have learned so far in towing my 25FB with an Audi Q7. For those reading this post that do not know, the Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne, and VW Touareg are all built on the same platform and can use similar engines, transmissions and suspensions. I work for Audi and have inspected the underpinnings of all three in the last month. Our Shop Foreman worked for ,and was trained by, Audi AG in Germany for 10 years. In a prior post it was mentioned that the Can-Am method of bracing would put stresses on components that were not designed for it. This is absolutely true. A long phone call to one of his engineer friends at Audi in Germany confirmed this and also explained how WD hitches actually work. Because of this I have been working to get the tongue weight down near the 661# that the hitch is rated for instead. "Weight Distributing Hitch# is a misnomer. They do not transfer weight. They transfer load. The tongue weight remains the same. What happens is the load is transferred in order to bring the TV and trailer to level and thereby provide optimum braking and handling, especially in emergency situations. I bought a tire storage bag with handle and move the spare under the rear dinette (-52#) and then put it in the back of the Audi while camped. I removed one of the propane bottles (-55#) when I discovered how little was used just running the refrigerator and water heater. I am planning to replace the batteries with AGM units and mount them under the rear dinette storage area (-90#). You need to add the weight of the WD hitch head, in my case 60#. That will puts me at 695# (832-197+63). I ordered a Sureline Tongue weight scale to be more exact. I believe that by repositioning things while towing I can get to the amount that the hitch is rated for and be above the 10% recommended hitch weight for the trailer (5500# plus 800# of gear and water. I believe this is the safest way to go about it.

A session on the CAT scales or similar will show that the load - measured in axle wt. - is transferred from the TV's rear axle to the TT's axle(s) & the TV's front axle in order to even out the load & keep adequate weight on the TV's front axle for adequate steering & braking performance. To do so, the WD hitch system's torsion (spring) bars push up on the TV's receiver/hitch assy. to torsion that weight forward to the TV front axle (& aft to the TT axle) - so I would posit that - yes - it does reduce the weight or downward pressure on the hitch.

That is why most auto mfgrs. do in fact give both "weight bearing" & "weight distributed" hitch wt. ratings - generally at 50-100% greater than wt. bearing.

VW/Audi/Porsche do not do so in many cases, but they did in some documentation which I mentioned above, which was supplied by another member here who is a certified Porsche Tech (same guy who warned about damage to rear suspension sub-assy.), at this link....

Post #72 -
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...-128005-6.html

At that post I started, there was a lot of great input from others on here who were very experienced in towing with the C/T/Q trio & MBZ & BMW, as well as some of my research into what we want to get for our own TV (vs. the current rental route since 2012). It may be worth a read for some reading this one, if you can put up with my incessant dribble .... but then, it was my topic to dribble on about! ;-)

Cheers!
Tom
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[RivetingTrvl]

Originally Posted by Tom_T

LOL - Very clever the way this "Big Truck" type sneaks in the F150 advert by leading it with "... so we tried all the Euro-diesels ...."!!

Even when the OP starts a thread asking not to go off hijacking this Cay/T-reg/Q7 thread, there always has to be the invasion of the big truck only crowd! Same thing happened when I started a thread asking for Cayenne tow folks for experience & didn't mind at all a few MBZ & Bmer folks in addition to these 3 cousins - but the big truck only crowd needs to get couseling or a 12 step - I mean really!

OK - so she's a big truck gal now, go sell them on the F150 thread please & leave this to the C/T/Q interested folks!

That's my 2 cents!
Tom
///////

Tom,

Sorry! I didn't mean to offend! I was just simply sharing my insignificant experience. I'm not a BIG TRUCK ONLY kinda gal -- I'm a middle-aged yuppy housewife who just happened to realize that the truck has its advantages. I'm not trying to sell them, for goodness sakes! I thought we were going to get a euro-diesel for months and just happened to try out the truck for S&Gs.

No reason to get your panties in a wad.
Michelle

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by RivetingTrvl

Tom,

Sorry! I didn't mean to offend! I was just simply sharing my insignificant experience. I'm not a BIG TRUCK ONLY kinda gal -- I'm a middle-aged yuppy housewife who just happened to realize that the truck has its advantages. I'm not trying to sell them, for goodness sakes! I thought we were going to get a euro-diesel for months and just happened to try out the truck for S&Gs.

No reason to get your panties in a wad.
Michelle

Michelle,

No offense was taken & no wads, I just got a giggle out of how you lead in with the Euro TV research - & ergo I led with an LOL.

I just tire of the religious fervor big truck only crowd, when they try to hammer it as the only way to tow.

My wife & I are in our 60s & grew up with pick-ups, but they don't fit our needs given a very tight & narrow driveway at our 1921 house, & narrow streets in our Old Towne Orange district here.

I really can only open the door of the pick-ups we've been renting about 1/4 - 1/3 open due to the close wall next door. Besides, my wife won't drive a big ole truck as they exist today - much bigger, longer & taller than the ones we grew up with in the 1950s-70s - & they're a royal PITA to have to climb up into & down.

So there is a market for folks who want, need, desire a mid-size Truck/SUV which is TV capable.

My only point was that this was a thread started specifically for these 3 vehicles. I understand that you were imparting your extensive research & decision to go another way.

So I found your closing "panty wad" jab uncalled for & not in the spirit of camaraderie which Airforums is supposed to be about!

Enjoy your F150!
Tom
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[Knuff]

A quick update on our "issue". Hitch reinforcement is being installed by a local shop in Redwood City. Will report the results. Thank you Andy! We had a good talk last Monday morning. Canam has shipped a modified Easylift. Spare tire is gone. Li-ion batteries from amsolar (200Ah) are en route and will be installed next weekend (likely under the dinette compartment - thanks ohiobrits!). Goal is to be ready for the real maiden voyage over July 4: NV, UT, AZ; 2 weeks, 2500 miles. It will be interesting to see the difference in towing behavior, MPG (We did the same trip before with the 20ft FC), oil temp, and generally. The plan is to take it slow over the Sierras - Carson City, Area 51 to Kodachrome Basin which will be our base camp. The trailer is going to be about 2000 lbs heavier than our previous FC - but I think that I will still be at 20MPG by taking it easy (cruise at 62 miles). With the FC, I was, well, driving the Cayenne like it had nothing attached to it .