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Old 07-19-2015, 07:05 PM   #155
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Tongue Weight question

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Originally Posted by Knuff View Post
I thought that I start a new Thread just with getting some information on different kind of setups and how people are feeling about their equipment. This is not for judging specific hitch setups, but just for gathering information about possible setups.

Let's start with our setup. We have been towing our 2014 20ft Flying Cloud with a 2014 Cayenne Diesel, equipped with an Equal-i-zer 10K. 15K miles in the last 18 months. We have no special hitch reinforcement.

We just traded our FC up to a 2015 International Signature 25FB and plan to use the same setup.

Towing so far is no big issue, plenty of power, never have the feeling that the Cayenne is/was too weak for the 20ft airstream - I have not had an uphill situation where I could not accelerate and this includes Tioga Pass in Yosemite and several other long inclines in CA and UT. Temp on the Pepper is usually 220-230 but can go up to 250 (rarely over) on long inclines. I usually drive it in Sport mode and switch to manual in mountainous terrain. Consumption is 18 MPG without paying attention to speed and with having fun on uphill climbs. 22 MPG is possible with attention.

Please tell me your experiences fellow VW, Porsche and Audi owners. I picked these three because Touareg/Cayenne is principally the same chassis and engine and the Q7 is closely related as well.
We just recently purchased a 2012 Touareg with factory installed hitch. Book states that we can tow up to 7700 lbs w a tongue weight of 616 lbs which limits the size of airstream we are planning to purchase. How have you handled the tongue weight difference between your new trailer and the 616 lb factory recommended max tongue weight.
Thanks in advance
Jay Counts
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Old 07-19-2015, 07:28 PM   #156
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Hi Jay - welcome to the club!

There is lots of information here and also from OhioBrits on this topic. In short, we have reinforced the hitch receiver (there are some images posted on #85 on this thread), added an Easylift WD hitch (welded in place by CanAm), and have modified the airstream by kicking out the 2 Interstate batteries and replaced them with Li-Ion that are under the bed. We also got rid of the spare tire on the airstream, upgraded to 16" Michelin light truck tires, and we got a full size spare tire that we place in the back of the trailer when traveling (we remove the mini spare from the Cayenne and leave it at home). Loaded for camping, the tongue weight of our 25FB International is still around 800lbs (I measured it on a recent trip), but as you can read in my recent report, towing was no issue on our last trip of 2,500 miles and multiple mountain ranges. The 25FB is particularly problematic with respect to tongue weight and the stated 860 lbs (or is it 840?) will probably be 100-200lbs higher when you measure it. I have no doubt that our 20FC back in time when I did not pay attention to tongue weight was probably close to 800-900 lbs because we loaded all our stuff onto the bed when traveling; we towed the 20FC for >15,000 miles in the last 1 years and never had an issue - and this was without reinforcing the hitch receiver.

If you do a little research you will also find that the VW factory hitch underwent multiple "re-ratings" over the years but the design of the receiver did not change. On some Touaregs the same 616 lbs hitch has a 770 lbs sticker. Go figure. Also there is a lively discussion about WD and whether this affects the tongue weight, stress on the hitch receiver, etc.
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Old 07-19-2015, 08:44 PM   #157
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CAT Scale weights

Thought I'd post some actual weights from this weekend. Our 19 year old son freed up his very busy calendar ( ) to come camping with us so the Cayenne was carrying 4 people (essentially 3 adults plus my teenage daughter), our dog and two bundles of firewood and an almost full tank of diesel. This is probably 225 lbs more load than normal.

We have a local CAT scale so I stopped to get a weight with everyone onboard. I wanted to see how close the Cayenne was to GVWR and axle loads hitched and fully loaded. Based on my original calculations I thought that me, the wife and 300lbs in the back seat would be about all we could carry so I knew we would be pretty much maxing out the Cayenne load wise with 4 up, dog and firewood.

The TT was loaded for camping (full water, fridge etc and probably 50 lbs or so more weight than normal for my sons gear).

Numbers are as follows: -

Cayenne ratings, from manual:-
GVWR - 6283lb
FAWR - 3042lb
RAWR (no speed limit) - 3384lb
RAWR (60mph max - towing) - 3693lb
GCWR - 13999lb

Airstream
GVWR - 7600lb

Ticket is below and shows that I had the following margins to max: -
Front Axle - 242lb (3042-2800)
Rear Axle - 333lb (3693-3360)
GVWR - 123lb (6283-2800-3360)
GCWR - 1279lb (13999-12720)
Cayenne tires are rated at 2149 lbs each @ 50 psig (I run them at about 46 front and 48 rear) so no issues there.
Airstream estimated Gross (assuming previously measured 750lb* tongue) = 6910lb so 690lb of AS load remaining.

I added another 1/2" of WD on the ProPride jacks to get the rig level. Ride was similar to normal but definitely felt a bit different. 225lb does not sound like much additional weight to carry but it is close to 20% of my payload and it was noticeable. I suspect the steel springs are getting close to full compression at this point which will start to modify the handling. According to Porsche though, I'm good to rip down the Autobahn at 130 mph with these loads since I squeaked under the weight limit on the rear axle (3384) that brings into effect the 60mph towing limit. Not sure I'd try it, but there you go

So based on the weights we did not exceed any numbers but were close on Cayenne GVWR.

Hitched up with 800lb or so of tongue weight, 2 passengers and minimal additional load in the Cayenne is probably the sweet spot. 4 passengers and other load is pushing things but definitely serviceable for short trips.

Safe travels.

*Note - my 27FB was 900lb tongue from the factory. I moved the batteries to the rear and made some other mods to reduce tongue to 650 with Eaz-Lift and 2 Husky anti-sway units. It is now at 750lb with the ProPride hitch fitted.
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Old 07-19-2015, 10:31 PM   #158
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Joined the cayenne clan this weekend! It's an 06 CayenneS titanium edition with only 50k miles. It'll be the wife's daily driver. We'll use it to tow our 23' '06 safari "glamping". Going to bike events and places with hookups. No need to carry two generators and boats etc. We have an '06 duramax HD for more serious camping. I'm going to try it out in the stock configuration first. The tongue was are in the ballpark. Based on what I've read here we should be ok. My trailer is PP3 equipped. Gotta pick up another stinger to keep it simple.

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Old 07-19-2015, 11:05 PM   #159
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Old 07-20-2015, 02:14 PM   #160
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Quote:
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Oh yea, pictures.....

Attachment 243400Attachment 243401


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Nice! .... Looks like a great score!

.... as you read in my prior posts, we're on the hunt for a similar Iceland Blue `06 CS-TI too .... still looking & checking on a few.

PS - Look out for Chippers etc. with that RED Cayenne - they really do look for red cars, as I found out with my first car back in the late `60's!

Cheers!
Tom
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Old 07-20-2015, 02:21 PM   #161
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Question Any Cayenne Owners in Philly/No.DE or Daytona Bch?

Are there any Cayenne Owners in Philly/No.DE or Daytona Bch that could look at one FS for me & tell me if condition is worth pursuing & doing a full PPI?
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Old 07-20-2015, 04:39 PM   #162
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Thanks! I know. They do look. Once the local ones get used to seeing you drive sanely its not so bad. I have a few Chips friends. Out on the road the rule is don't lead the pack. Drive 5 over. Use a Valentine one radar detector for bug open stretches!

One interesting statistic. Silver cars draw the most tickets. Don't know if thats adjusted fir relative numbers on the road.

Good luck in your search. Your car is out there.


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Old 07-20-2015, 08:31 PM   #163
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Oh yea, pictures.....

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Looking sharp! You should have no issues with the 23 (in my opinion) without mods. Take some time to get the rig level and enjoy.
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Old 07-20-2015, 10:14 PM   #164
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Love the color - inside as well!
Will be sharp looking with the silver airstream following.

Good point about the super troopers, reminds me of the classic line: "Is there anything wrong mit mine Porsche?"
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Old 07-22-2015, 03:52 PM   #165
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Tom_T you are the bomb!!

thanks for all your knowledge.
also thanks to the others on this thread. the info is invaluable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
Vinstream... Thanx on the color info!

Is the R50 designation for the VW "R Line" 5.0 & including other special equipment & options beyond the standard Taureg V10? If built on the Porsche line, does it then also incorporate the Cayenne spec suspension, brakes, etc. as an R50 spec T-reg? Please educate me!

I'm guessing that your T-reg R50 V10 sold for about the same sticker price as a top of the line Cayenne Turbo S with comparable options/standard equipment sets on both - correct?

I agree that the Taureg V10 was an option loaded special vehicle from VW in the Taureg line-up, & will probably end up being one of those highly desirable collectable models featured in the 2025 Vintage Tow Vehicles thread on here, as well as appreciating in value. I'm sure it & the Phaeton will be much like the Westfalias, 19/21/23 window splitty buses, etc. are today - as future high value collector cars!

I would've never expected our 1988 VW Vanagon CamperGL Westfalia which was the most expensive Vanagon at the time & had a $28,000+/- sticker price new (I only paid $22,500-ish thru good negotiating), to be valued today in restored form in the $50-70,000+/- range!

So I strongly recommend that you keep it ...forever... pass it along to kids/etc., & not let it be one of the cars 20+ years from now that you wished you'd kept!


ALL... Notes on V10 5.0 TDI vs V6 3.0 TDI in C/T/Qs:

For those looking for diesel fuel efficiency in the V10 TTDI Tauregs - they were about the same mpg as the Porsche 4.5L V8 & VW 4.2L V8 Gassers - so you're buying them for monstrous torque (see below) & top of the line features.

They were available on Tauregs from 2004-08 & then the VW V6 TDI came out in 2009> I think - the latter of which is the fuel efficient option. But the price premium & added maintenance costs on diesels makes the fuel savings hard to recoup in purchase price, over a V8 gasser even then. So you can find reasonably priced used VW Tauregs from 2009-11, then their prices climb rapidly to the new car levels.

Whereas, Porsche didn't bring their V6 TDI to the US/Can until 2013, so they are still high in the $50-60,000+ range & are even harder to justify the extra $20-30,000 over a 2008-10 Cayenne S gas V8 for towing.

If you're looking new, then the V6 TDI is a relatively cost effective option - over the gas V8's in all 3 - Taureg, Cayenne & Q7 lines - for TV duty.

BTW - I'm using "TTDI" sometimes to reflect that some are "twin turbo diesel injected" - although the general VW/Audi/Porsche parlance is usually just "TDI" in most cases.

For us adding a 3rd car TV & others in a similar situation - it doesn't make sense to spend new car nor recent used prices for a vehicle to sit in our driveway & get used maybe 3-6000 miles per year (currently we only put about 5,200 mi on BOTH our DD cars COMBINED per year).

So the used Cayenne S V8 is our choice poison, although I would jump on a nice low mile Taureg V10 TDI if one came along!


Ohiobrits...

That was the exact YouTube video with Taureg V10 TDI vs. Chevy 2500 HD V8 TDI (I thought it was a Dodge) to which I was referring in my post above! Imagine that type of "pull off" with an AS or vintage kin in tow on a side-by-side drag strip or road course!

I too think that the V8 TTDI Cayenne Turbo Diesel S - the Euro/RoW V8 TDI to which I referred in post #115 - with the air suspension & other usual Porsche tweaks would give Vin's R50 V10 a run for the money performance-wise.

But IIRC the Porsche Cayenne Turbo Diesel S V8 TTDI TQ is about 805 lb/ft, whereas the Taureg V10 TTDI is over 1000 - so that V10 T-reg would still win their pull-off! ... by a shade anyway!


Timhortons...

I agree on the VW fit & finish issues vs. Audi & Porsche! VW's problem is that the bean counters equate "Lux" with more profit, but NOT with commensurate quality & quality control!

I also agree that the brand sharing of platforms increases the ultimate quality & reliability of all sharing a platform, as well as possible parts sharing - or at least in a pinch in Podunk wherever lacking the Audi or Porsche dealership or independent shop, in a pinch!

Yes, the new 2011> Series 3 Cayenne lost about 7-800# also, as did the Tauregs, although perhaps only 5-600# on them.

And yes, that is a different Porsche Tiptronic gearbox - but it too is an 8-spd. You must be thinking of the new 7-spd PDK dual clutch (automatic clutch) stick shift (not really a manual), which was introduced for SUV/CUV use in the new for 2015 Macan line.

The downside on the newest Cayenne S is that the V8 is now a purely Porsche made 3.6L V6 TTI gasser from the Macan Turbo S (Macan S is a purely Porsche 3.0L TTI), so the V8 is now only on Cayenne Turbo & up gasser models. It's got great TQ down to about 1250 or 1850 rpm, so it will be competent, but may tend to run at higher revs while towing, than the prior 4.8L naturally aspirated V8s - especially on grades (& the higher than 55 mph towing speed that we're not supposed to exceed in CA & many other states ;-).

Yes, the Canadian market seems to get "special treatment" when it comes to car pricing. However, I think that if you add on options on the VW & Audi cousins to the comparable Cayenne - which often has a standard set of "included" options or features, which also increase with each sub-model/engine - then some or much of that $10kCAN differential goes away.

Offsetting that with all 3 makers, is when they force you to buy another option or option package, in order to get the ONE option you really want! A rear backup camera is a great example of that BS in our area of needs/wants for towing, & it is beyond me why 3 self-described luxury car makers do not include that feature as standard base equipment on ALL C/T/Q vehicles - period! Bloody stupid IMHO!

Therefore, for anyone looking at the buying one of 3 new, I would strongly suggest listing what equipment & features you really want & need + colors, interior, etc. - then go to each manufacturers' website to use their active "build your car" feature to compare them in actual cost to get your desired "package" between the 3 makes - then go negotiate!

If you really do need the 3rd row added seating - whether for your towing time, or in it's "off duty" time as your "car" - then skip the Cayenne & Taureg, & concentrate on the Audi, & perhaps the 3 row BMW X5 (I don't think the ML350/550/320TDI offers a 3rd row) for your Luxo Euro TV alternatives.

I really didn't research the Audi Q7 option much myself, for several reasons, & these are considerations for other folks looking at the Euro TV options:

1.) We're now empty nesters & don't need a 3rd row seating for a crowd;

2.) We didn't want the extra 10-14" +/- of length the 3rd row requires to further complicate our tight street & driveway situation;

3.) The Audi Q7 weighs more than the other 2 cousins - due to the added weight of that 3rd row & extra body length also reduces the Q7's max. tow rating proprtionately - relative to the ratings of the comparable year/engine Taureg & Cayenne (7716# & 700# on they years we're looking at buying used);

4.) The softer & more compliant ride settings for the Audi, vs. a more sporty & stiffer Cayenne (or Taureg), which is both more fun on a Porsche Club event, but also better resistance in towing use;

5.) We are looking for the smallest possible mid-size SUV with a V8 package due to our tight driveway & street conditions, plus my wife's reluctance to drive anything bigger than "her cute little happy van" (Westy).


kevinkatz...

I've included a bunch of info relevant to your post, in my replies above - intentionally so. Here's some more food for thought...

What I've found in my researching the same "how to service a Cayenne on the road" dilemma, is that there is enough similarity, that a VW or Audi dealer or independent shop could service the Cayenne in a pinch - at least enough to get you to the next big town with a Porsche dealership or Indie shop. The BMW & MBZ franchiises don't have that advantage - & it's even less so for the Land Rovers, to add another Euro TV not mentioned here to date.

There are some parts of the USA & Canada where none of the Euro brands are common even in 2015, so there could be situations where something happens with your X5 or any of these, depending on how actively Murphy's Law is working that day!

In any of the cases for the Euro TVs, I think you're well served to buy to top tier AAA Premier or other roadside assistance plans with the 100, 200, ++ mile towing benefits.

Likewise, the Fidelity Extended Warranty has been recommended to me by several C & T owners for cars not on a CPO, since they apparently underwrite the VW CPO's in the USA (& maybe Audi & Porsche too).

Fidelity Warranty Services - Home Page

As for your target of 4-5 years old, depending on your intended use profile, mileage & how long you'd keep it - I'd suggest that your target age or perhaps new could be broadened a bit.

If you plan to trade in or sell off 2 cars - Cayman & X5 - then you may get your net cost down into used car territory - even on a new Cayenne etc. If you're a car keeper like me, then the drop doesn't really hurt unless you get in an accident in the first few years & insurance only pays you for your depreciated ACV value (my only 2 new cars ever are the 88 Westy & 85 BMW 325e - both of which I still own & the Westy at least is worth more now than new).

However, I don't like to "lose" 20-25-30% of the value when I drive a new car off the dealer's lot, so I personally think that a slightly used 1-2 year old PCNA staff or dealer demo Cayenne is a good option (ditto for VW, Audi, etc.).

I've made my case in this & other similar topics on these Euro haulers, that I think the Cayenne S V8 or GTS/Turbo/Turbo S are the best options for a sportier driving in daily non-tow mode & for car club driving treks, than the others (except that Taureg R50 V10 & V10 comes close, but the newest is 2008).

Likewise, you can look beyond the 4-5 year old window which you mention - & instead broaden it a bit based on some maximum mileage with which you're comfortable driving - given your profile. So the 4-5 year is now a 2010-2011 & soon to be 2011-12 come the Fall 2016 release.

But with the Cayenne for example - the Series 2 2008-10 are all pretty similar, so you could consider any of them under say 40, 50, 0r 60,000 miles - so long as they have documented service records for everything which needs done on them by miles & wear & factory maintenance (same for any make).

If you were to look at <2008 in the C/T/Q trio V8s (V6 & TDI will have their own quirks to verify were fixed too), then you'll need to make sure that the plastic coolant pipes were updated to metal, ignition coils were updated (all 8 of them) per the factory specs & service bulletins, & that the front lower control arms/bushings (@ +/-40-60k miles), & cardan shift/mid-bearing (driveshaft - @ +/-40-100k miles), timing chain tensioners & water pumps (@ +/-40-100k miles) were all done if & when needed (these items are not disimilar to the Cayman/Boxster/996/997 IMS issue, with which I'm sure you're familiar).

Those 2 update issues were all fixed on the 2008> Cayenne V8 models with their new 4.8L, but the other wear items above are still an issue on all C/T/Q models/years.


In addition to the other BMW, MBZ, etc. options - for your relatively light weight 17' AS Caravel - you may also want to consider one of the new Porsche Macans &/or the cousin Audi Q5/S5 - as more of a close match to something between your Cayman & X5 TDI, & possibly more fun in non-TV mode than a Cayenne.

The Macan S (3.0L TTI) & Macan Turbo S (3.6L TTI) & the soon to be released in North America Macan S Diesel (3.0L TTDI out since March 2015 in Europe/UK) are all rated at 4400+ lbs. for towing (don't recall the HW rating), & all have their TQ kicking in low enough at 1250-1850 rpm

I'm not sure about the Audi Q5 ratings & engines, except that their S5 is the closest to the Macan S, so worth looking into as well.

I was able to price out a new Macan S - at about the same expected $45,000+/- starting price as the Macan Diesel - with my desired options for the $52-55,000 range & not far off of a new base Taureg V6 TDI! But my wife wanted more rear storage room, so we went back to the `06-`10/`11 Cayenne S plan (see the 928 comments below).

You'll have less net useful load & cargo room on those Macan/S5 - than on the Cayenne, Taureg & Q7 (latter doesn't seem your style anyway), but they are smaller, lower slung & drive more sports car-like, than the C/T/Q trio.

So I'd suggest doing some research on both your towing & non-towing needs & desires relative to those cars, & then go out & have a bunch of fun test drives - including going out on a test run hitched to your Caravel with any final contenders - to make you decision.

Then you can decide if you want to try new, or at least know more what to try out for the used cars in your 4-5 year old range, & make a used

Also note that I was originally hoping to make a Porsche `86.5 928S or `87-89 928S4 with it's 4200+ lb. tow rating work for our little Avion + more fun classic car GT cruiser 3rd car! .... oh well, I lost that one to my wife's desire for "real back seats & more storage room"!

Pre-89 Porsches can qualify for cheaper classic car insurance with most companies offering it, but only certain ones also allow daily driver level of usage & more miles, so look at several to compare (Panorama, Excellence, Hemmings Sports & Exotics magazines all have ads for those collector car insurance companies).

But you could probably make it work for your Caravel!
...see 928 & Macan pix below - note the factory hitch/connector at the rear shot (Macan sideview was shown at prior post above)....

And before anyone chides me for including the 928 in a Euro SUV topic, the fact is that the Porsche 928 - while a GT - was factory TUV (German DOT) rated to tow 4200+ lbs for travel trailers - only about 200# shy of the new Macan's 4400+ lbs.!

So since there were no pre-2003 versions of the C/T/Q trio - I say that the factory tow rated 1978-95 V8 powered 928 line WAS & IS that predecessor of the pre-SUV/CUV era, & therefore not OT!

Cheers!
Tom
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Old 07-23-2015, 02:43 PM   #166
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Hi, I just got a 27 International Serenity FB and plan to tow with our 2012 Touareg TDI. I am about to go pick up the hitch that I have researched to death I think but have settled on the Blue Ox with 1000 lb bars. Hope its the right choice as supose to have built in sway control. The airstream dealer in Seattle seemed to really like the Blue Ox. Any feedback welcome. Thanks, Murray
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Old 07-24-2015, 04:59 PM   #167
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Hello, I tow a 25FB with an Audi Q7 TDI and a Blue Ox 1K bars. Works great! I am very happy.
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Old 07-25-2015, 11:56 AM   #168
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Ok, great to know. I am a bit concerned with how far the ball will be from my receiver tip (12"). Im trying to find out if that is an issue before I install it. Murray
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