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Old 05-05-2008, 08:32 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by richie rich
if i burn ethanol to save fossil fuel but lease a new tow vehcle every 3 years which a factory has to build from scratch,how does this plan save any kind of fuel.oh my glass is empty . are there any more hot dogs?

Well lets see what it does. It give employment to americans and gives that person a brand new vehicle with the latest technology in flexible fuel consumption. It also creates the demand for more ethanol plants to be built and even more reduction in the consumption of polluting fossil fuels. But more important it saves the fossil fuel for things that have no alternative source, like fertilizer and plastic that packages your hot dogs. My dear friend, if you consume all the oil in your car, your hot dogs will have to packaged in aluminum foil, o no, that may make airstreams even more expensive!! Go e85!!
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:29 PM   #30
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if you have brains,you can change the world.if you have money all you can do is change your mind.saw a man the other day on a bicycle.behind the rear wheel was another wheel with an electric motor.the whole thing was attached with a brace to the rear axle .he didn't wait for his bicycle lease to be up.heard there is similar auto 5th wheel low tech add on. O by the way,the U.S. uses 400 million gallons of gas every day.a 100 million gallon tank of ethenol will only last 'till brunch.the massive land use alone for e85 is just another ecological disaster. .....time to check my hot dog!

??????
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:25 AM   #31
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To create just one gallon of fuel, ethanol slurps up 1,700 gallons of water, according to Cornell's David Pimentel, and 51 cents of tax credits. And it still can't compete against oil without a protective 54-cents-per-gallon tariff on imports and a federal mandate that forces it into our gas tanks. The record 30 million acres the U.S. will devote to ethanol production this year will consume almost a third of America's corn crop while yielding fuel amounting to less than 3% of petroleum consumption.

In December the Congressional Research Service warned that even devoting every last ear of American-grown corn to ethanol would not create enough "renewable fuel" to meet federal mandates...Now scientists are showing that ethanol will exacerbate greenhouse gas emissions. A February report in the journal Science found that "corn-based ethanol, instead of producing a 20% savings, nearly doubles greenhouse emissions over 30 years . . . Biofuels from switchgrass, if grown on U.S. corn lands, increase emissions by 50%."


And, what happened to our pocketbooks at the grocery store????

Clearly, ethanol is NOT the answer...

Bill
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by BillTex

Clearly, ethanol is NOT the answer...

Bill
No, but we do need to explore alternatives to fossil fuels, as well as better efficiencies to help with their conservation.
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Old 05-07-2008, 03:42 PM   #33
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To create just one gallon of fuel, ethanol slurps up 1,700 gallons of water, according to Cornell's David Pimentel, and 51 cents of tax credits. And it still can't compete against oil without a protective 54-cents-per-gallon tariff on imports and a federal mandate that forces it into our gas tanks. The record 30 million acres the U.S. will devote to ethanol production this year will consume almost a third of America's corn crop while yielding fuel amounting to less than 3% of petroleum consumption.

In December the Congressional Research Service warned that even devoting every last ear of American-grown corn to ethanol would not create enough "renewable fuel" to meet federal mandates...Now scientists are showing that ethanol will exacerbate greenhouse gas emissions. A February report in the journal Science found that "corn-based ethanol, instead of producing a 20% savings, nearly doubles greenhouse emissions over 30 years . . . Biofuels from switchgrass, if grown on U.S. corn lands, increase emissions by 50%."


And, what happened to our pocketbooks at the grocery store????

Clearly, ethanol is NOT the answer...

Bill


Your information from Pimentel is very old and based on early production of Ethanol decades ago. This is exactly the data the oil companies are using and the ethanol industry does a poor job of defending the huge improvements made in only the last 5 years.

I agree corn is a poor source, but it is a means to the end. I truly believe we will see switch grass and then algae as the prime source for ethanol. Regardless of your opinion, it here to stay and will be a significant portion of our energy choices. We can discuss differences, but when diesel hits 10 to as much as $15/gallon by 2013 as predicted, we will all want something other than what they drill out of the ground. Demand caused by China and India have us in a total different situation than the last energy crisis in the 70s. Look at this months National Geographic, they show daily/annual new cars on the road in China alone. It is no longer just ours for the taking. We must find alternatives.
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:08 PM   #34
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For all to look up recent information on the Ethanol industry, I invite you to source the Argonne National lab study dated 3/27/2008. They show a modern ethanol plant will use 3.45 gallons of water for 1 gallon of ethanol produced. As you will read, much of the information is out to kill an industry that very much is a threat to the oil industry. I believe 1 gallon of gas uses more water, in the 4-8 gallon range.
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:28 PM   #35
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Clearly ethanol is ONE of the answers. This is from 1995 but talks about net enerergy gains from ethanol production. Look at oil refining effciency improvements over the last 30 years. "Necessity is the mother of Invention"

How Much Energy Does It Take to Make a Gallon of Ethanol?

I don't think that their is ONE magic energy source like oil. I think their will be multiple sources per region. Just think when you pull up to an energy station their might be Ethanol, Hydrogen, Batteries, Gasoline, Bio-Desiel, Vegetable Oil, ect.

Green Gas Stations

Whats wrong with Gov't protection and tax breaks. We''ve given it to the steel, auto, banana, ect. industries...

If you don't approve of Ethanol, don't use it......
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Old 05-07-2008, 06:32 PM   #36
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somebody back there nailed it.there is no really good answer to this fuel problem.use what you want.at this stage of the game the public has been manipulated not to think .the turbine squashed.the electric wedge of cheese rejected,even the model T got 30 mpg gone.new technology?maybe to you. you guys are fun.sit down .how 'bout a hot dog?
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Old 05-07-2008, 06:59 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by safari 28
but when diesel hits 10 to as much as $15/gallon by 2013 as predicted, we will all want something other than what they drill out of the ground.
Judging by the belt lines of many in this country, there will be french fry oil around for a long time...a very cost effective conversion for most diesels. Ethanol; not cost effective, or good for the environment.

Clearly, the most effective means we all have of saving the environment, and decreasing our dependance on dinosaurs (regardless of their nationality) is by walking, cycling, etc...
some of us have been doing this for years...long before any spike in co$t.

Bill
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:04 PM   #38
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Judging by the belt lines of many in this country, there will be french fry oil around for a long time...a very cost effective conversion for most diesels. Ethanol; not cost effective, or good for the environment.

Clearly, the most effective means we all have of saving the environment, and decreasing our dependance on dinosaurs (regardless of their nationality) is by walking, cycling, etc...
some of us have been doing this for years...long before any spike in co$t.

Bill
I was behind an old mercedes in malibu around october. He had a big bumper sticker/// bio diesel. The smell was great, had to have some fries later that day.

I agree about old cooking oil as an alternative for diesels and that is the point. Currently no silver bullet we are in, but lots of things coming up to make us at least move in the direction of independence. You are very correct on biking, my main hobby, and it is a great way to spend a couple of hours a day.

Some more stats on ethanol. Total production for 06 was approx 5 billion gallons. 07 figures not in this article, but I presume to be much higher. The U.S. government is supporting the entire industry due to energy security concerns. Thats right, some of this is a result of 9/11. This is why it is now on all or most military bases. I have a e85 retail location site on my handheld. With exception to a few stations in San Diego, the only locations that had e85 were ALL military bases. That should speak volumes to all who think it is a fad. Recent figures show a 30% reduction in tailpipe emissions on e85, so major population centers are targeted for future outlets to reduce epa fines etc. I know the press is bad and yes it not perfect. I predict however, for those in gassers towing, it will be on your next vehicle. It works and saves big bucks. Plus, it is fun to put a spare 5 gallon tank in the bed of the truck and get it stolen. Just makes me smile when they put 85% corn fuel in whatever. Sweet revenge.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:10 AM   #39
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillTex
Judging by the belt lines of many in this country, there will be french fry oil around for a long time...a very cost effective conversion for most diesels. Ethanol; not cost effective, or good for the environment.

Clearly, the most effective means we all have of saving the environment, and decreasing our dependance on dinosaurs (regardless of their nationality) is by walking, cycling, etc...
some of us have been doing this for years...long before any spike in co$t.

Bill
thank you bill,you made my day.the ultimate answer is to shut off the motors and take a hike! (take a hike is a fuel and recreation alternative,not an insult).
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:41 AM   #40
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A Few Corn Facts

The following statistics from the U.S. Department of
Agriculture (for the year 2007) will give you a sense of the
size of these two vastly different industries.

Field Corn
93.6 million planted acres•
13.1 billion bushels produced •
(366 million tons)
Crop Value: $52.3 billion•
Sweet Corn
631,400 planted acres•
2.9 million tons fresh and •
processed
Crop Value: $625.5 million •
fresh; $236.9 million processed

What do some of these words mean? A bushel of corn is 56 pounds, about the weight of a large bag of dog
food. An acre is about the area of a football field. A ton is 2,000 pounds, about the weight of a small car.


47% of field corn produced in the United States (6.15 billion
bushels*) is as feed for livestock such as beef, pork or poultry.


24% (3.1 billion bushels) is used for ethanol production. Besides
the ethanol this produces, this corn also will result in approximately 24
million metric tons of high-protein livestock feed in various forms and
about 2.5 million pounds of corn oil.



19% (2.5 billion bushels) is exported to other countries. The top five
countries to which the United States exports corn are Japan, Mexico,
South Korea, Taiwan and Egypt.


10% of the corn (1.4 billion bushels) goes to other food, seed and
industrial uses. Field corn is a source of corn cereal, corn starch, corn oil
and corn syrup. Hundreds of other products are also derived from corn,
such as certain plastic packaging and even fabrics.


In addition, about 9% of the total corn supply (currently 1.3 billion
bushels) is carried over as a surplus for the next year.


Looks like we are in no danger of running out of corn. This year.
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:21 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick
The following statistics from the U.S. Department of
Agriculture (for the year 2007) will give you a sense of the
size of these two vastly different industries.

Field Corn
93.6 million planted acres•
13.1 billion bushels produced •
(366 million tons)
Crop Value: $52.3 billion•
Sweet Corn
631,400 planted acres•
2.9 million tons fresh and •
processed
Crop Value: $625.5 million •
fresh; $236.9 million processed

What do some of these words mean? A bushel of corn is 56 pounds, about the weight of a large bag of dog
food. An acre is about the area of a football field. A ton is 2,000 pounds, about the weight of a small car.


47% of field corn produced in the United States (6.15 billion
bushels*) is as feed for livestock such as beef, pork or poultry.


24% (3.1 billion bushels) is used for ethanol production. Besides
the ethanol this produces, this corn also will result in approximately 24
million metric tons of high-protein livestock feed in various forms and
about 2.5 million pounds of corn oil.



19% (2.5 billion bushels) is exported to other countries. The top five
countries to which the United States exports corn are Japan, Mexico,
South Korea, Taiwan and Egypt.


10% of the corn (1.4 billion bushels) goes to other food, seed and
industrial uses. Field corn is a source of corn cereal, corn starch, corn oil
and corn syrup. Hundreds of other products are also derived from corn,
such as certain plastic packaging and even fabrics.


In addition, about 9% of the total corn supply (currently 1.3 billion
bushels) is carried over as a surplus for the next year.


Looks like we are in no danger of running out of corn. This year.
thank you for those figures.the USA is blessed with an abundant supply.can we agree that supply is not the problem?,conservation is .can we also agree that less use of our fuel is the answer?
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Old 05-09-2008, 01:12 PM   #42
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Who Killed the Electric Car?

Pretty neat movie....... Anybody else ever seen it?

BTW, I want one of those Plug in Hybrid Suburbans. I have six kids, that thing would fit my family perfectly. Bummer they are not available
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