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Old 12-30-2017, 03:19 PM   #155
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It seems endless with recommendations here. I tow a 34 with a 2015 GMC max tow package 6.2 engine. I put my gear in the box hookup set my bars and go. Absolutely no issues with big rigs or any type of road. I travel to the speed my trailer tires are rated for and put on the tunes
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:49 PM   #156
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As they say Head West, you milage MAY vary. As an engineer I see things a bit different that the average mechanic or marketing influenced consumer. The newer engines (including the EcoBoost 3.5 have all started to take off in the horsepower race. They do NOT do this out of a pure need to produce HP, rather they do it to reduce weight. Fewer cylinders means less weight and those vehicles sold down in the lower GVW range that are under Federal Fuel Milage constraints of the CAFE standards (like the lightest F-150s)

BUT, Ford (and others) are left in the lurch when it comes to building a pickup truck that can both perform well (pulling a trailer) and slip in under the CAFE standards so the Eco Boost solves that problem...for a while.

If I may explain a bit of engineering needs here, in order to solve the problem of pulling you need to produce torque. Torque gets you UP the hill. HP gets you up the hill faster. To produce torque you MUST have TIME to burn the fuel that gets in the cylinder. This is the natural forte of the diesel engine. It BURNS the full slower and is able to extract the energy from it over TIME. A gasoline engine cannot do this. Not even the Eco Boost. But what the EB CAN do is stuff a lot of fuel into the combustion chamber and create a lot of torque-at low engine speed.

There is the kicker, AND the evidence to prove the folly of this engineering trickery. Anytime a diesel engine engineer designs an engine he STARTS with one understanding, what is the job that this engine will be doing. He than computes the amount of TORQUE that will be needed to do that job. Notice here that there is as yet NO block design or fuel system design or any marketing BS to cloud his work. He is starting with ONE premise and only one.

Once he had defined for himself what torque loading will be he then consults the fuel system configuration. In the past this has been a rather mundane exercise as there were only a few examples of the types of fuel delivery systems out there. But, going with the torque problem, he then must know the actual engine speed that design will be required to run under. With these two numbers he can begin to calculate the BMEP, or Break Mean Effective Pressure. This number is critical to to the design as it affects the design, layout and construction of the engine block.

If the BMEP is high, meaning large fuel loads and slow time to burn to gain the maximum fuel economy, the designer MUST provide for a larger bearing surface on the connecting rod big end AND for a larger bearing surface on the main bearings also. All of this 'torque' that is being produced MUST be handled in real time. In other words, no snowflake construction allowed.

Now comes the EcoBoost engine with torque and horsepower numbers rivaling that of a small diesel engine. Since the engine is using Direct Injection technology they can 'tweak' the BMEP to be lower than peek. The term 'M' in BMEP means the "High Average' and is critical to the engine design. The EB gets around the destructive forces of 'M' by tweaking the fuel delivery curve since it has direct control of the fuel going into the chamber BUT, total torque (that number you see on the marketing charts) is NOT being applied to the crankshaft in real time. It is averaged over the total stroke, which with gasoline, cannot sustain the 'M' for too long. (Gas is not a burning fuel, it is an explosive fuel)

Now to the essence of your question/observation, about your apparent ignorance of the failure of these EB engines in the field. Number one answer is a cop out but it is true, there has not been enough experience in the field for these engines to show their true colors, 100,000-150,000 miles under towing conditions. Rememebr, many people use this motor as a daily driver. And the second answer is the one that gets me worried. As a heavy truck repair shop we see a fair number of F-150, 250, 350 , 450, and 550's in our bay for major engine repair or replacement. We know where all of the buttons and tabs are located to remove the cabs for this work. As an aside, did you know that a special impact gun is needed to remove the body bolts in order to lift the cab? Did you know that it takes a $175 special tool to disconnect the parking brake linkage so the cab can be lifted off? I only KNOW this because of the exceptionally high numbers of Fords being presented to us for engine replacement or turbo work. Last month we had an exhaust manifold pipe (first pipe off of the manifold) that had to be replaced. The cab had to come completely off to do the job. And right now we have a F-550 with a lineman's bucket on it. Think about THAT one for a moment as you look to remove the cab.

The reason I tell you this is that we are covered up with Fords an their engine issues, one thing or another. And what we are seeing in the EB and the other V-6 gas offerings, is failed bearing surfaces related to oil film breakdown and two issues of a spun thrust main bearing, ostensibly from the same cause.

When you attempt to put a large force 'M' onto a connecting rod that is a left over from the gasoline engine era things are JUST not going to work out well. Ford won't tell you that but I will.

Now, how do we know if YOUR EB engine is in peril? Well, there is a simple test that can be done by the owner that will give you a heads up on weather your Boot Scootin' EB is on the way to the great Rebuilder in the sky. We use it as a service to our customers and they think it is the cats meow. It's called Oil Analysis. It won't keep you from destroying your engine but at least it will tell you when it is about to die. Ain't that comforting?

Any NAPA store will sell you an oil analysis kit for perhaps 15-18 bucks American. You use this kit at the time of a scheduled oil change. Get the oil up to operating temperature and while draining the oil from the pan (Not from the oil filter) permit the bottle to fill up in mid stream. Clean the bottle of oil residue and cap it and lable it according to the bottles supplied instructions and apply postage (2 first class) and drop in in the mail. In about 4-5 days (faster if you give them an eMail address) you will receive back the results of what was found in the oil based on the make and model of the engine, the oil used, the milage, and the operating condition (heavy duty towing, mud bogging, etc.). This information is critical to understanding the internal condition of your engine. It is this kind of approach to maintenance that will tell you of the excess buildup of various kinds of engine material like bearing lead or worse, bearing copper, or fatally, bearing aluminum. Engine bearings are made up of 4 layers, starting with the steel back for accuracy, the aluminum layer for heat dissipation, copper for compressive strength and lead or babbet, that part that runs against the crankshaft journal. The report will give you these metal levels as NORMAL, your actual levels, and any opinions on the amount of metals in the oil. Also, in this same test are the levels of antifreeze, (good to determine if a head gasket is leaking) and excess fuel levels, indicating a defective injection system. All in all, for a few bucks you get a lot of useful information about the internals of your engine.

Only time will tell on the long term viability of the EB because Ford will never tell you. Of what value is an engine that is dead in the water after 5 years of hard use. The costs to replace it is well over $4500 and the truck is dead in the marketplace with a worn out engine.

That's how I see it.

Darrow...for the Prosecution
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Old 12-31-2017, 04:24 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by wvollans View Post
It seems endless with recommendations here. I tow a 34 with a 2015 GMC max tow package 6.2 engine. I put my gear in the box hookup set my bars and go. Absolutely no issues with big rigs or any type of road. I travel to the speed my trailer tires are rated for and put on the tunes
Amen. And so do thousands of others.

These are Airstreams, not semi trailers.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:00 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by DubleDeuce View Post


....The reason I tell you this is that we are covered up with Fords an their engine issues, one thing or another. And what we are seeing in the EB and the other V-6 gas offerings, is failed bearing surfaces related to oil film breakdown and two issues of a spun thrust main bearing, ostensibly from the same cause.

When you attempt to put a large force 'M' onto a connecting rod that is a left over from the gasoline engine era things are JUST not going to work out well. Ford won't tell you that but I will.

Now, how do we know if YOUR EB engine is in peril? Well, there is a simple test that can be done by the owner that will give you a heads up on weather your Boot Scootin' EB is on the way to the great Rebuilder in the sky. We use it as a service to our customers and they think it is the cats meow. It's called Oil Analysis. It won't keep you from destroying your engine but at least it will tell you when it is about to die. Ain't that comforting?....


Darrow...for the Prosecution
Thank you for the benefit of your experience.

One thing that is universal across all fields of engineering, is there are trade offs but no free lunch. Iíve been an engineer for 40+ years and these principles are reinforced almost daily.

I recall having a hothead or two jump down my throat on this forum because I dared express reservations about the EB engine in a heavy towing application...

Now we have specifics.
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:10 AM   #159
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Humor?

It would appear a 3rd conversion is running head to head w/Politics and Religion, in it is not prudent to discuss in open w/many that are unwilling to try and see and/or understand all sides. Like others that have made note in this thread and other threads on AIRForums, I too have had arrows shot at me for nothing more than stating years of experience on owning trucks and towing, different trucks, different power plants, and different towing. I would like to thank DubleDuce in thread #156, well stated! Many of us understand what you have stated and most likely many will want to go back to a "Clinton Trump" debate. It is like "you can take the horse to the water hole, however if the horse wont drink, the horse wont drink", not my problem.

Safe Travels
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:11 AM   #160
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EB Problem

"When you attempt to put a large force 'M' onto a connecting rod that is a left over from the gasoline engine era things are JUST not going to work out well. Ford won't tell you that but I will.

Now, how do we know if YOUR EB engine is in peril? Well, there is a simple test that can be done by the owner that will give you a heads up on weather your Boot Scootin' EB is on the way to the great Rebuilder in the sky. We use it as a service to our customers and they think it is the cats meow. It's called Oil Analysis. It won't keep you from destroying your engine but at least it will tell you when it is about to die. Ain't that comforting?

Any NAPA store will sell you an oil analysis kit for perhaps 15-18 bucks American. You use this kit at the time of a scheduled oil change. Get the oil up to operating temperature and while draining the oil from the pan (Not from the oil filter) permit the bottle to fill up in mid stream. Clean the bottle of oil residue and cap it and lable it according to the bottles supplied instructions and apply postage (2 first class) and drop in in the mail. In about 4-5 days (faster if you give them an eMail address) you will receive back the results of what was found in the oil based on the make and model of the engine, the oil used, the milage, and the operating condition (heavy duty towing, mud bogging, etc.). This information is critical to understanding the internal condition of your engine. It is this kind of approach to maintenance that will tell you of the excess buildup of various kinds of engine material like bearing lead or worse, bearing copper, or fatally, bearing aluminum. Engine bearings are made up of 4 layers, starting with the steel back for accuracy, the aluminum layer for heat dissipation, copper for compressive strength and lead or babbet, that part that runs against the crankshaft journal. The report will give you these metal levels as NORMAL, your actual levels, and any opinions on the amount of metals in the oil. Also, in this same test are the levels of antifreeze, (good to determine if a head gasket is leaking) and excess fuel levels, indicating a defective injection system. All in all, for a few bucks you get a lot of useful information about the internals of your engine.

Only time will tell on the long term viability of the EB because Ford will never tell you. Of what value is an engine that is dead in the water after 5 years of hard use. The costs to replace it is well over $4500 and the truck is dead in the marketplace with a worn out engine.

That's how I see it. "

Darrow...for the Prosecution[/QUOTE]

Thank you Darrow for stating just the facts, ma'am. (an you too, Double D)
This reminds me of two memories. Back in the 1980's Winnebago released an RV called Le Sharo which came with a Peugeot Diesel engine. Not 6 months into the release we started getting them into the shop with blown motors. Now we did a lot of Peugeot passenger car diesels and rarely if ever had one with a blown engine so this was new. Investigation finally showed that the engine was too small for the vehicle and although it had more than enough horsepower to propel the vehicle down the road etc., because the engine was too small the turbo boost ran at maximum all the time. I suspect that we will be seeing the same type of problem with these EB's.

Second, when I did my engine building apprenticeship in the mid 1960's it was under Walter Herbert who was nationally famous as the Master Chevrolet engine builder. Walt built the first two-engine dragster to compete successfully and built engines for Big Daddy Don Garlits amongst others.
So when Chevrolet released its 327 engine they found they had a high rate of failure that was not endemic to the 283. But they were stumped so they came to Walts shop in Albany California and stayed on the floor with him for two weeks until he finally explained why their engines were failing. Light turned on, they went back to Detroit and fixed the problem. Why do I tell this? Simply because as DD says, the manufacturer is NEVER going to tell the public what is really going on and Chevrolet never said a word to anyone. I suspect that Ford will not say anything although if they keep selling these small engines in these F150s and people keep towing and then they finally figure out they have a high rate of engine failure that they may very well put somewhere in the sales contract that the vehicle may not be used for towing!!!
But who knows? A lot of folks who tow also drive the truck daily which means that most of the time it acts like a passenger car so this may only be an issue with the folks who tow a lot. None of this changes the physics, though, which DD Darrow clearly stated.
I have always been flustered by folks who buy a pickup, small or large, and never once in their life ever put anything in the bed in back. Never once!!!
Here in Texas, you can count 950 pickup trucks with unused beds for every 1000 on the road that are not commercial. What a joke! And what stupidity as they cost more, are less economical, often take up more room in traffic and do nothing for the environment because----They Are Not Required by EPA to Meet Emissions Standards!!!
Anyway, time will tell us what happens with the EB. My suggestion is now and always has been to start with a 3/4 ton based truck and even better, just buy a dually and never have a problem.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:47 AM   #161
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Ecoboast

You have to admit that Ford has gotten creative with their engine technology. The auto/truck industry is highly competitive, and Ford is trying to stay alive by pushing the limits of their EB and diesel engines. When I test drove one of their F250s with a Powerstroke, it had the quietest and most powerful diesel engine of all, with virtually no turbo lag.

Now the EB engine uses 6 bolt main caps, which isn't common in a gas engine, and I must say I haven't seen my boost gauge up high much when towing, and that's usually when I'm entering an interstate entrance ramp and trying to get up to speed fast, which I can do with my F150 and 28' stream. But I generally use my truck around town and not towing. But I'll trade up to a larger truck in a few years and change oil frequently till then, since the turbos are cooled by oil too.
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Old 12-31-2017, 11:58 AM   #162
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Since we're having a silly discussion about the size of our trucks, I will say this: having ridden in a "dually," I will never own one. If I'm not towing, then every time I hit a bump the truck scrambles my kidneys, hurts my back and bangs my teeth together. If I am towing, I hate to think what that dually could do to my Airstream, unless I added an AirSafe (or something like that) to the hitch rigging.

Also, given I'm towing an Airstream and not a gigantic heavy SOB trailer, I will never need a dually. I will admit to Jonesing after a 3/4 ton gasser because of the load capacity limitations of our RAM 1500 with a 5.7 engine and a max-tow package, but pulling & stopping capability have never been an issue in all our many miles of towing. I will never want a dually or even a 1-ton as long as I'm towing an Airstream, though our next truck, if we wore this one out before we stopped 'streaming, would be a 3/4 ton gasser.

When towing an Airstream, all this "go big or go home" nonsense wrt suggesting folks need a 1-ton or a dually is just that: nonsense.

If a 1-ton dually makes you happy you should by all means get a 1-ton dually and haul your Airstream all over the country (and beyond). I promise, I won't argue that you did the wrong thing. It's your money, you get to spend it however you like, and the only thing that really matters is whether you're happy with the results.

However, if one feels a tremendous need to rationalize a decision to go big by telling everybody else they are wrong if they don't use a 1-ton or a dually or a diesel to haul an Airstream trailer, one might want to re-examine the motivation for doing so. Maybe speak about the decision in terms of how happy one is, what is awesome about it and so on. Maybe try not to speak about it in terms of how anybody who didn't do the same is wrong-headed and foolish.

BTW, engine oil analysis - interesting idea. something cool borrowed from the big truck shops with gigantic engines where they do that sort of thing all the time. Could be fun to do one someday to see how our 5.7 is faring.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:02 PM   #163
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You know youcan get one tons with srw, dont you. Mine was.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:25 PM   #164
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You know youcan get one tons with srw, dont you. Mine was.
Oh, absolutely!

That's why i was trying to refer, almost separately to 1-tons and dually's.

Again, there's no reasonable argument anywhere that proves anybody *needs* a 1-ton truck to tow an Airstream.

Wanting 1-tons for whatever reasons, liking them, saying how great experiences have been with them, and so on, is totally cool. One should do that as often as they like. Won't convince me in the least to go beyond 3/4 ton, but that's OK. I'm glad folks with really big trucks are happy with their choices and their expenditures. I would love it just once, though, if folks with huge trucks wouldn't try to tell me that if I don't buy one too, then kittens, bunnies, children and little old ladies will die as I pass by with my 1/2 ton truck and it will be all my fault.
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Old 03-10-2018, 03:18 AM   #165
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On an F150 that we want to optimize we will install Bilstein Shocks, this is an expensive change but it does make an amazing difference to the handling. If you plan to keep the truck for a long time it is worth doing. You will have to change the factory shocks sometime so might as well have the benefit today.








Re: Bilstein shocks ó which one best for Silverado 1500 towing a 28í

https://www.summitracing.com/search/...silverado-1500
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Old 03-11-2018, 06:08 AM   #166
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Please help: 2018 Globetrotter => 2018 F-150 Lariat SuperCrew Confirmation

[ATTACH]306087

Just ordered the Bilstein shocks for my Silverado 2016 1500.

Also ordered the Curt 14301 receiver that I am going to try to install myself.
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Old 03-11-2018, 06:14 AM   #167
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[ATTACH]306087

Just ordered the Bilstein shocks for my Silverado 2016 1500.

Also ordered the Curt 14301 receiver that I am going to try to install myself.
I often see comments about Bilstein shocks. I've never owned them nor do I know anyone who has. What do they do that makes them desirable and superior to others?

Just trying to increase my understanding!

Thanks!
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Old 03-11-2018, 06:16 AM   #168
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Please help: 2018 Globetrotter => 2018 F-150 Lariat SuperCrew Confirmation

My mechanic said (as did the local trailer hitch company ) they are better not as leaky as the ones you buy at autozone, etc. he said that they used to come stock on silverados and you donít really need to put them on the fronts but the rear need to be replaced if you are pulling weight after 25k Miles. Iím probably being overly cautious but handling is very important to me. Pulling the 28í with a 1 ton. Also upgrading the receiver hitch to a curt 14301 [ATTACH]
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