Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-21-2006, 12:01 PM   #29
New Member
 
Gibsons , British Columbia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3
Images: 1
Thanks to everyone for their input. Its all great food for thought and has got us thinking that we may be cutting it a bit too fine. Known for being a collector (I can't walk a beach without picking something up to take home - to do what with? Drives John nuts I'm sure.) we'd be better off with a little more breathing room. There's still plenty of number crunching to do in our research.

It certainly helps to get all the help of everyone out there. Being rookies, I'm sure we'll be posting more questions once we get our AS. Can't wait! Thanks again.
__________________

__________________
wotocho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 06:52 AM   #30
1 Rivet Short
 
1989 25' Excella
By The Bay , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,547
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottanlily
Boy Nick ,thats says it all ,and your so right .The manafactures really inflate
the tow ratings ,some smaller suvs are rated to tow more than a suburban .
How can that be I ask ?
Scott
???
A properly equipped Suburban is rated to tow 12,000 lbs.
Which small SUV can has a greater tow rating than that?
__________________

__________________
BillTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 09:07 AM   #31
Rivet Master
 
Condoluminum's Avatar
 
1988 25' Excella
Sunnyvale , California
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,858
Images: 13
Send a message via AIM to Condoluminum
"Improperly Equipped Suburbans..."

A Suburban picked off dealer lot with small V8, 2WD and 3.73 rear axle ratio is rated for a lot less than 12,000 pounds.. Closer to 6K.. Those are the ones Scott was referring to, I believe.. Getting one of the max towing models takes patience and either special order or having dealer search through the data base for a long while to find one, at least in many parts of the country... In our area, dealers stock inventory for low MSRP and high fuel mileage, not for towing capacity...

Any mid-size SUV or pickup claiming to safely and reliably handle 7,500 pounds or more probably had sales brochures subject to final edits in marketing, not engineering..

John McG
__________________
Condoluminum

In Theory, there's no difference between Theory and Practice, but in Practice, there is usually a difference...
Condoluminum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 09:40 AM   #32
1 Rivet Short
 
1989 25' Excella
By The Bay , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,547
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Condoluminum
A Suburban picked off dealer lot with small V8, 2WD and 3.73 rear axle ratio is rated for a lot less than 12,000 pounds.. Closer to 6K.. Those are the ones Scott was referring to, I believe.. Getting one of the max towing models takes patience and either special order or having dealer search through the data base for a long while to find one, at least in many parts of the country... In our area, dealers stock inventory for low MSRP and high fuel mileage, not for towing capacity...

Any mid-size SUV or pickup claiming to safely and reliably handle 7,500 pounds or more probably had sales brochures subject to final edits in marketing, not engineering..

John McG
My last two Suburbans, bought "off the lot" were;
2001 K1500 5.3l 4.10 rear end rated at 7800#
2004 K1500 5.3l 3.73 rear end rated at 7500#

Available as small V8's (I have never seen the 4.8l in a Suburban, although I have seen them in Mid size Tahoe's) but this is what the manual says;
C1500 4.8l 3.42 rear end is rated to tow 5700#
C1500 4.8l 3.73 rear end is rated to tow 6700#

As far as I know, a Suburban (and the now defunt Excursion) are the only Full sized SUVs. (Mid size would be Tahoe/Expedition.) Either of these vehicles would quite easily tow well over 7500# properly equipped. I am not aware of any other SUV's that could claim this.
There were several 2500 on the lot last week at my dealer-no special order, just sitting there.

If we cannot take the mfrs ratings as fact (those listed in the manuals, website, etc) then exactly what basis do we have when selecting TV's?

I have worked as an Engineer for a Tier supplier to the automotive industry for many years. I have no reason to believe they would publish or over state any of their ratings, regardless of the mfr (domestic or foriegn) this would leave them liable to any number of lawsuits. NHTSA, and other Gvt agencies, insurance companies, consumer groups, etc would never allow this practice. The regulations, standards, and specifications required by the automotive industry and Gvt,fill volumes of books (trust me I have a bookshelf full right in front of me that applies only to fasteners and coating used in the automotive industry). The tow ratings are real and verified (but also remember-the listed ratings are the MAXIMUM).
__________________
BillTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 10:32 AM   #33
1 Rivet Member
 
2005 28' Classic
Jacksonville , Florida
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8
Towing

Hello. New to the forum and just picked up my Classic 28 and thought I would chime in. Another very capable SUV is the Nissan Armada with tow package, I have a 2006 LE and when properly equipped can tow 10k/1000 TW. I currently tow a Fountain 32 Center Console and now the 28. I pulled the 28 twice now with ease and the 32 for the past year. These are both heavy rigs and the Armada pulls very strong. I believe this is one of the best gas powered truck engines made. There is some catch up needed from the Big 3 to compete with this one. I have owned a couple Burbs and many American SUV’s. None have come close to the comfort, quality and muscle of the Nissan. I would buy another American SUV in a minute if there was one that could compete with this truck. It won out easily when I test drove all the Ford and Chevy/GMC offerings. I even test drove the Durango that Dodge considers “Full Size”. The Dodge was ruled out before I even drove it. This one should be considered for those looking for a new tow vehicle.
__________________
Dan G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 11:20 AM   #34
Moderator
 
moosetags's Avatar

 
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
2012 23' FB Flying Cloud
2005 25' Safari
Santa Rosa Beach , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,762
Images: 5
The Armada, the Tahoe, the Suburban 1500, and the Expitition are all half ton vehicles and not considered real trucks. Visit your Ford or Chevy dealer and take a walk around the lot and look at the stickers on the trucks and SUV's. You will note that any 1/2 ton chasis vehicle shows an EPA mileage rating. Now take a look at the 3/4 tons. There is NO estimated MPG shown. That is because the Federal Government classifies 1/2 ton trucks and SUV's as passenger cars requiring EPA mileage estimates. 3/4 ton chasis vehcles are classified as trucks and have no such requirement.

The differences are much greater than just the Government's classification. I will use the Suburban as my example as it is the only SUV that is available in both 1/2 and 3/4 ton versions. The frame is heavier on the 2500 to prevent flex under laod. The brakes are the heavy duty truck brakes which have better stopping power. A very important feature is the eight lug pattern wheels which are heavy duty and designed for use with load range E truck tires (something that I would not want to be without pulling an Airstream). The 2500 has both oil and transmission coolers. It also has rear leaf springs as opposed the the 1500's rear coil springs (designed to give it that passenger car ride). Even the 1500 Suburban is just a Car in Truck's clothing.
__________________
SuEllyn & Brian McCabe
WBCCI #3628 -- AIR #14872 -- TAC #FL-7
2015 FC 25' FB (Lucy) with HAHA
2005 Suburban 2500 Quadrasteer (Olivia) & 2018 Silverado 2500 (Lillian)
moosetags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 11:37 AM   #35
1 Rivet Short
 
1989 25' Excella
By The Bay , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,547
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by moosetags
The Armada, the Tahoe, the Suburban 1500, and the Expitition are all half ton vehicles and not considered real trucks. Visit your Ford or Chevy dealer and take a walk around the lot and look at the stickers on the trucks and SUV's. You will note that any 1/2 ton chasis vehicle shows an EPA mileage rating. Now take a look at the 3/4 tons. There is NO estimated MPG shown. That is because the Federal Government classifies 1/2 ton trucks and SUV's as passenger cars requiring EPA mileage estimates. 3/4 ton chasis vehcles are classified as trucks and have no such requirement.

The differences are much greater than just the Government's classification. I will use the Suburban as my example as it is the only SUV that is available in both 1/2 and 3/4 ton versions. The frame is heavier on the 2500 to prevent flex under laod. The brakes are the heavy duty truck brakes which have better stopping power. A very important feature is the eight lug pattern wheels which are heavy duty and designed for use with load range E truck tires (something that I would not want to be without pulling an Airstream). The 2500 has both oil and transmission coolers. It also has rear leaf springs as opposed the the 1500's rear coil springs (designed to give it that passenger car ride). Even the 1500 Suburban is just a Car in Truck's clothing.
True-somewhat-actually the requirement for EPA estimates are based on a vehicles GVWR, not passenger capacity. Ex; Hummer
__________________
BillTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 01:30 PM   #36
1 Rivet Member
 
2005 28' Classic
Jacksonville , Florida
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8
Real Trucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by moosetags
The Armada, the Tahoe, the Suburban 1500, and the Expitition are all half ton vehicles and not considered real trucks. Visit your Ford or Chevy dealer and take a walk around the lot and look at the stickers on the trucks and SUV's. You will note that any 1/2 ton chasis vehicle shows an EPA mileage rating. Now take a look at the 3/4 tons. There is NO estimated MPG shown. That is because the Federal Government classifies 1/2 ton trucks and SUV's as passenger cars requiring EPA mileage estimates. 3/4 ton chasis vehcles are classified as trucks and have no such requirement.

The differences are much greater than just the Government's classification. I will use the Suburban as my example as it is the only SUV that is available in both 1/2 and 3/4 ton versions. The frame is heavier on the 2500 to prevent flex under laod. The brakes are the heavy duty truck brakes which have better stopping power. A very important feature is the eight lug pattern wheels which are heavy duty and designed for use with load range E truck tires (something that I would not want to be without pulling an Airstream). The 2500 has both oil and transmission coolers. It also has rear leaf springs as opposed the the 1500's rear coil springs (designed to give it that passenger car ride). Even the 1500 Suburban is just a Car in Truck's clothing.

I guess I didn’t realize I didn’t by a “Real” truck when I bought my 6000 lbs. vehicle. I’m not hauling a track hoe in the off time so it works just fine for my needs. I was also not aware my truck was a cross dresser and was really a car in trucks clothing.

Class IV Hitch 10K/1000lbs TW Tow Rating, Factory Oil Cooler, Factory Trans Cooler. Large Capacity Alternator and Battery. I guess I must have been blind to buy this “Car”
__________________
Dan G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 02:11 PM   #37
1 Rivet Short
 
1989 25' Excella
By The Bay , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,547
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan G.
I guess I didn’t realize I didn’t by a “Real” truck when I bought my 6000 lbs. vehicle. I’m not hauling a track hoe in the off time so it works just fine for my needs. I was also not aware my truck was a cross dresser and was really a car in trucks clothing.

Class IV Hitch 10K/1000lbs TW Tow Rating, Factory Oil Cooler, Factory Trans Cooler. Large Capacity Alternator and Battery. I guess I must have been blind to buy this “Car”
I think what Brian is saying is; the suspension, transmission, and many other components are the same as used in passenger cars (this is true). 1/2 ton vehicles are great for their intended purpose(s); they can tow lighter loads when properly equipped, can carry passengers in comfort, and can be relatively fuel efficient.
I have owned (and still own) several 1/2 ton trucks/SUVs. Untill you tow something with a HD rated truck, you don't know what you are missing .The transmission, chassis, suspension, and brakes are specificaly designed for this type of use. It takes more than a tranny cooler and big battery to make an HD truck.1/2 ton vehicles (as stated above) are a compromise. Towing with an HD vehicle is great. Riding around town unloaded is not so great (that is the compromise of HD trucks).
As I have said in another post; I had the opportunity to tow my Excella with my 1/2 ton Suburban, and now with a 3/4 ton truck.
Guess which one stays in the driveway when we are hitched up?
__________________
BillTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 04:25 PM   #38
1 Rivet Member
 
2005 28' Classic
Jacksonville , Florida
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8
Tv

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillTex
I think what Brian is saying is; the suspension, transmission, and many other components are the same as used in passenger cars (this is true). 1/2 ton vehicles are great for their intended purpose(s); they can tow lighter loads when properly equipped, can carry passengers in comfort, and can be relatively fuel efficient.
I have owned (and still own) several 1/2 ton trucks/SUVs. Untill you tow something with a HD rated truck, you don't know what you are missing .The transmission, chassis, suspension, and brakes are specificaly designed for this type of use. It takes more than a tranny cooler and big battery to make an HD truck.1/2 ton vehicles (as stated above) are a compromise. Towing with an HD vehicle is great. Riding around town unloaded is not so great (that is the compromise of HD trucks).
As I have said in another post; I had the opportunity to tow my Excella with my 1/2 ton Suburban, and now with a 3/4 ton truck.
Guess which one stays in the driveway when we are hitched up?

I think I got what Bill was trying to say, just trying to lighten things up. I’m certainly not trying to compare a ˝ truck with an HD truck as I’ve owned/own and driven a few. My point is for the occasional pulling, within the TV limits, of a camper and or boat an F350 would not be a wise choice for most. As far as describing the differences of trannys, rear-ends, drive-shafts, yolks, pinions, and any other mechanical aspect of a vehicle, I’m very skilled and quite knowledgeable on the subject, but thanks for tutorial on some of the differences. Jeez, I thought my sons F150 shared the same trans as the F250/350. You know, being all Ford’s

I guess depending on what you pull/haul, an 8,000 lbs. boat or RV maybe a “lighter load” I own a 15 Ton truck on my farm that can tow more than any of my trucks but may look a bit stange at the shore with a trailer in tow My work trucks are just that, work trucks. You said it, not the best daily driver.

FYI:
Triton. V10 (30-valve) - 362HP@4750RPM and 457lb-ft of torque@3250RPM

Armada/Titan Endurance V8 305+ HP @approx. 4,900 rpm 375lb-ft of torque at 3200

07 both Titan and Armada will have over 325 HP.

The Nissan fairs pretty well for a "Car"

The Titan and possibly Armada will be available with a diesel soon. Both 3/4 Ton. I still buy American PU Trucks but may have to consider that Titan with a diesel.
__________________
Dan G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 08:59 PM   #39
Rivet Master
 
JimGolden's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
1977 31' Excella 500
Berkeley Springs , West Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Images: 7
Dan,

Offtopic, but tell us about your 32 foot Fountain. What engines do you have? Twin 500's? How fast will it go?

I've always been a big fan or Reggie Fountain's Go-Fast boats. I like cigarettes, and I don't even smoke

I understand both Fountain and Donzi make Sportfisherman center console boats that are basically cigarette hulls with different topsides.
__________________
- Jim
JimGolden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 08:24 AM   #40
1 Rivet Member
 
2005 28' Classic
Jacksonville , Florida
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8
Towing

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGolden
Dan,

Offtopic, but tell us about your 32 foot Fountain. What engines do you have? Twin 500's? How fast will it go?

I've always been a big fan or Reggie Fountain's Go-Fast boats. I like cigarettes, and I don't even smoke

I understand both Fountain and Donzi make Sportfisherman center console boats that are basically cigarette hulls with different topsides.
Boat Details


Beam
9 ft 6 in
Max Draft
3 ft 4 in


Draft Board/Drive Up
2 ft
Dry Weight
5800 lb approx.


Hull Material
Fiberglass
Hull Shape
Deep Vee


Hull Warranty
6 years
Engine
Outboard


Fuel
Gas/Petrol
Horsepower (total)
550.00 hp


Fuel Capacity
300 gal
Water Capacity
20 gal




Had a 23 before the 32 that was faster with a Merc 275 and pushed 55. The 32 is a much nice boat offshore with dual 275 and close to a 600 mi range. Also when it gets real rough a much dryer ride than a 23. The spec above is basically what I have. With all options/gear the boat can weigh up to 8k. Great boat! Yes that is true it is basically a cigarette hall with a center console. I like Donzi and owned one many years ago, (of the pleasure boat variety) also a very nice boat. The fountain fit and finish is a step above. This is my second Fountain and I’m very happy with it.

Dan
__________________
Dan G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2006, 12:57 AM   #41
Rivet Master
 
1960 24' Tradewind
santa barbara , California
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,352
hello everyone ,

the post on the tow rating of the suburban was merely a point I made ,not
using the actual numbers,because the tow ratings of much smaller suvs are
seemingly climbing up all the time ,and approach ratings of larger vehicals,
hence the question asked ,how is that possible.I have looked at the frontier
and the titan ,that frontier is a small pickup period.The titan is much better
for towing a larger trailer .Still not as big as a full size chevy ,ford or dodge.
But very capable of doing the job.As for the suburban ,the 1/2 ton is not
any car ,it has a full ladder frame and suspension bigger brakes than any car
does .the 3/4 ton is a tougher truck also ,heavier frame ,8 lug wheels as noted ,same engine as the 1/2 ton ,better trans 4L80 E instead of the 4L60E
for the 1/2 ton .the expedition however is more designed carlike ,but has a full frame but rear airbags and smaller brakes ,especially the front ,too small
for the size of that vehical and the weight.The design was for a different
market ,not trailer towing .The 1/2 ton sub with 4:10 gear 5.3 is plenty.
the key is the rear axle ratio.Get the lower ratio always if you plan to tow.
I will say I don't know about towing almost 7000# with a 4.8 tahoe with 3:73
gears ,thats a strech ,you all know that if you have towed a large trailer.
the heavy duty HD will be better for any 28 on up trailer no arguement .
Classifying the 1/2 tons for EPA merely allows those vehicals to pass on the
stingent EPA mileage requirements and the 2500 and up trucks never will
qualify for anyEPA fuel mileage requirement so they don't post any.Advertising them as cars really is a way to get under the EPA radar ,thats whats going
on there.Manafactures have to meet certain EPA requirements ,if they can get a suburban or durango classified under the EPA standards for a car ,they
can show that those vehicals meet said standards .It is all about the EPA
fuel mileage protocals that manafactures must adhere to .Lastly ,the durango
had a 9000# tow rating with the hemi engine ,thats a lot of weight to tow
and to stop .I do believe tow ratings in fact are over rated ,such as the toureg was allegelly capable of a high tow rating ,and could pull a big airstream ,truth was ,a big lie VW had to back peddle somthing fierce on that
debacle ,A well documented example of a manafacturer trying to claim its
suv could tow somthing it could not.

Scott
__________________
scottanlily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2006, 10:43 AM   #42
Frank S
 
1973 27' Overlander
peoria , Illinois
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 316
Hi scottanlily--My towing experience with a 27' Overlander and 1/2 ton Suburbans is exactly the same as you outline above. Some of the smaller lighter "trucks" with high horsepower ratings should not be considered for towing over 5000 lbs, as they are lacking in other factors, besides HP, that need to be considered, such as: tire, spring, brake, and transmission capability; frame and rear axle strength; wheel base and weight, to keep the tail from wagging the dog.--Frank S
__________________

__________________
Frank S is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Which is best tow vehicle Van or Sedan? Mr Jody Hudson Tow Vehicles 10 10-06-2016 10:14 PM
F250 tow vehicle or flatbed? Cheryl Tow Vehicles 19 08-23-2007 02:58 PM
Tow Vehicle Options wlanford Tow Vehicles 10 05-23-2005 01:18 PM
1975 Cadillac Eldorado as Tow Vehicle overlander64 Tow Vehicles 9 11-04-2002 08:04 AM
4x4 tow vehicle... or not? Cheryl Tow Vehicles 11 08-23-2002 12:00 AM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.