New Tow Vehicle

[slowmover]

2Airishuman had a Pro Pride on his 2011 F350 with his '34 tridem. And the biggest thread on that hitch. Have a look.

[lylesgl]

The class 6 AirSafe hitch (which I purchased) allows for the installation of a WD device. I too question the need for sway control given the info presented on the website, but I decide to use the Reese Straight Line WD system anyway. It was an easy decision given I already owned the Reese system.

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by azvantage

Thanks for the information to all. Looks like a hitch upgrade is in order.

Definitely want to avoid this:

Hit pause at 08/09. You can see that the majority of the car's weight is sitting towards the back of the trailer. Not good.

[random 17]

Just an update regarding the tow vehicle.

I have not yet made a new hitch purchase and towed roughly 400 miles on a standard weight carrying hitch at speed over roughly 12,000 feet of elevation change total.

Observations:

1) On this particular truck, with my trailer, I have not noticed the 'harsh ride' issue. Every cushion remained in place as did pretty much everything in the trailer. This is more than can be said about my last setup (3/4 ton with Equalizer hitch)---I would routinely find cushions on the floor, etc. after extended trips with that setup.

2) Sway is a non-issue roughly 99% of the time. This includes high winds, passing trucks, etc. I was specifically watching the rear of the trailer during these times.

I still plan on obtaining one of the 'higher end' anti sway hitches in the near future---just for the added protection for the 1% (presumably during emergency maneuvers, strong wind gusts, etc.). I did notice a tiny bit of sway in my mirror in extreme situations (i.e. passing a large truck while descending a 6% grade around a curve). However, I do see how some people would tow with just a weight carrying hitch and have no issues. The truck is extremely stable.

[slowmover]

Whoop-te-doo for bigger trucks . . I can tow my even larger, heavier trailer without any WD or antisway at all. Tracks fine, etc, etc, etc.

And I can inadvertantly flick the tail into an adjoining lane at any moment. Almost without noticing it has happened.

We can understand this all a different way that is just as accurate:

Any pickup is bad enough. But a straight-axle 4WD plus worm & ball steering gear make for the dullest possible feedback on any TV available. Other permutations are only somewhat better. A VPP hitch might keep the worst-handling, worst-braking, least stable of all possible tow vehicles -- that full-size pickup truck -- from a loss of steering control accident.

Weight & wheelbase matter until they don't. At which point they are an enormous liability.

The trailer is capable of more than the TV. The trailer isn't the problem when it can get through the slalom faster than the TV.

The faincy hitch is for the truck.



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[Cracker]

I'll go out on a limb and say that IMHO any action severe enough to cause sway and subsequent loss of control with a dually using a Reese dual cam hitch would very likely cause the same loss of control with any other hitch assembly - and this, by no means, is meant to be critical of those other assemblies. On vehicles with less mass and stability a superior hitch assembly could definitely prove beneficial. Incidentally, the GM duallies have independent front suspension. The solid front axles went out a long time ago.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Cracker,

"any other" but the haha or PPP, as they eliminate the onset of trailer sway on a properly set-up rig.
Remember the TV don't start swaying 'til it's too late.

Bob

[Cracker]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Cracker,

"any other" but the haha or PPP, as they eliminate the onset of trailer sway on a properly set-up rig.
Remember the TV don't start swaying 'til it's too late.

Bob

Understood - but I believe the only way to completely eliminate sway would be to rigidly connect the TV and the Trailer - thereby making turns impossible! I believe that if an incident occurs that is of sufficient magnitude to cause a dually/Reese Dual Cam setup to lose control, the additional magnitude that would cause a haha or PPP equipped dually to lose control is purely academic. This is strictly with reference to a vehicle like a long bed, crew cab dually which, as an aside, generally weighs almost the same as a 30' Classic Airstream (+/- 8,300 lbs.) I don't believe that you can compare duallies to Suburbans or other lighter vehicles - even 3/4 ton pickups. That said, if I came across a reasonably priced used haha or PPP I would seriously consider a purchase as I definitely appreciate the mechanics/physics involved in their design.

My ultimate setup would be a 5th-wheel Airstream of no greater height than a current Classic, utilizing the 5th-wheel piece to house a propane generator, propane tanks, and batteries. No 2-story hotel on wheels!

[phbarnhart]

Originally Posted by Cracker

Understood - but I believe the only way to completely eliminate sway would be to rigidly connect the TV and the Trailer - thereby making turns impossible! I believe that if an incident occurs that is of sufficient magnitude to cause a dually/Reese Dual Cam setup to lose control, the additional magnitude that would cause a haha or PPP equipped dually to lose control is purely academic. This is strictly with reference to a vehicle like a long bed, crew cab dually which, as an aside, generally weighs almost the same as a 30' Classic Airstream (+/- 8,300 lbs.) I don't believe that you can compare duallies to Suburbans or other lighter vehicles - even 3/4 ton pickups. That said, if I came across a reasonably priced used haha or PPP I would seriously consider a purchase as I definitely appreciate the mechanics/physics involved in their design.

My ultimate setup would be a 5th-wheel Airstream of no greater height than a current Classic, utilizing the 5th-wheel piece to house a propane generator, propane tanks, and batteries. No 2-story hotel on wheels!

My understanding is that the effect of a virtual pivot point system like the Hensley or the ProPride is a rigid connection when it comes to external forces applied to the trailer. I didn't really understand what I meant until I watched a video that Hensley put out.

Hensley Arrow Sway Control Hitch - YouTube

[Cracker]

Originally Posted by phbarnhart

My understanding is that the effect of a virtual pivot point system like the Hensley or the ProPride is a rigid connection when it comes to external forces applied to the trailer. I didn't really understand what I meant until I watched a video that Hensley put out.

Hensley Arrow Sway Control Hitch - YouTube

Good Video! Thanks for providing it. I can't help but wonder what would happen in a lane change maneuver where the TV would instigate the sway - or in a wet road condition resulting in a skid (---jacknife???) Seriously wondering --- not trying to start a fight! Would the haha or PPP perform in a superior manner?

[phbarnhart]

Originally Posted by Cracker

Good Video! Thanks for providing it. I can't help but wonder what would happen in a lane change maneuver where the TV would instigate the sway - or in a wet road condition resulting in a skid (---jacknife???) Seriously wondering --- not trying to start a fight! Would the haha or PPP perform in a superior manner?

I seem to me that they would. My thinking is that the TT would be less likely to "over-correct" in a situation like that that. Since the trailer can't turn independently of an input from the TV, as soon as the driver gets the TV going in a straight line again, the trailer will "snap" back into line.

I dunno, I figure even the best of hitches can't overcome the most extreme situations. I'll take any advantage that I can get.

[r carl]

Trailer Accidents - YouTube

[slowmover]

I installed the H/A on mine . . and proceeded immediately to the Interstate where I did violent, constant/increasing throttle shoulder-to-median maneuvers. Would have put any 5'er on it's side and any typical SOB TT. At 55-mph I was up near the limit of what the TV could do (2WD, IFS, rack&pinion). The TT just followed along . . I could no more shake it than can one's own shadow. The typical difficulties of a high COG, crudely suspended TV weren't made worse by the TT "behavior".

No reason to follow up on the H/A money-back guarantee after that.

All too typical of the H/A, though, is that I could not restore FA number to their "laden/solo" value. A PP is a better choice by that virtue alone. Why my H/A has a limited future with me (am tired of needing to pay $80 every time I change TT or TV or hitch adjustments mailing stingers back & forth).

If one proceeds from the premise that a WDH with anti-sway is to keep TV handling and responsiveness closer/closest to how it would be while not towing, then a VPP comes closest to never allowing sway to begin. It may be a manner of speaking that we call the TT-TV "locked together", but it exemplifies the difference between them and the second tier hitches (Dual Cam, then, farther down, Equal-I-Zer). It isn't a step, but a gulf between that first & second tier.

One wants -- I want -- the best scale-derived WDH adjustments and tires up to the job; properly-spec'd and properly pressurized for in the end it comes down to a few square inches of rubber on the road surface: TT tires at maximum sidewall pressure, and TV pressures according to load (per better than scaled axle averages) for best performance.

Getting down to the speed where stability is more likely may be as much of the solution as any other. But not all days are clear, warm and traffic-free. Nor are all roadways smoothly paved. The belief that TV size and driver skill are enough -- virility -- is as funny as any assumption that people make. Feelings substituting for thinking. What matters will be over with in seconds.

Thus, the driver will always have his hands full. Best we keep problems with the rig at bay as long as possible inside that tiny time-frame.

As with learning to minimize fuel burn to accomplish the same ends -- to use every foot of the road as well as possible -- one also wishes to gain just one second more of tire grip.

I am sure the OP will enjoy his new TV. We all make compromises. The grandaddy of current "hitch debates", 2Airishuman made his in favor of high grip, fast-wearing tires by comparison to the wears-like-iron LRR tires I favor on a truck. We split that difference on travel speed: an A/S is likely better at speed than an S/S; and, as I favor high mpg also -- which dictates a sub-60 mph travel speed versus the 70-plus 2Air rolls the roads at -- these choices make the best of those chosen situations. But the physics of a pickup truck means one must get down in speed rapidly in order to avoid rollover.

Yet the premise here (and made also by others) proceed from the making the numbers visible and workable. DRW or SRW, 2WD or 4WD, none of them obviate the need for best hitch rigging. We all start in the same place, and numbers tell us how well we've done . . after that is room for more and other considerations.


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[random 17]

'The belief that TV size and driver skill are enough -- virility -- is as funny as any assumption that people make. Feelings substituting for thinking.'

I'm sorry, but I'm just going to have to disagree with this remark.

I will agree that in the best of all worlds, towing safety is a combination of driver skill and proper setup. Proper setup means an appropriate tow vehicle in combination with an appropriate hitch.

In my opinion, out of the three, driver skill matters most. To argue that it doesn't matter means that you have not witnessed how it can matter. I have been on a course where a skilled driver took all of us students around a racetrack in a stock Ford econovan, floored at over 90 mph with one hand on the wheel, with his head turned around speaking to us. This was with controlled, smooth motions, knowing when to brake, accelerate, finding the appropriate line, etc. Being aware of your surroundings, knowing when it is OK to be at speed vs. traveling slower, etc. all contribute to safety. Knowing what NOT to do when sway begins, knowing WHAT to do when sway begins.... Advanced driving school, in my opinion helps with the weakest link in pretty much all road situations---THE DRIVER.

Vehicles DO matter. A one ton dually is a purpose built vehicle. It's like buying a winter tire for winter conditions vs trying to use all seasons (or even worse, summer tires). Does it work great for everything? No. Does it work great for towing? Yes.

Are all heavy duty trucks comparable? No. Trying to compare or reflect on the driving characteristics of a current generation truck to one from prior generations is ridiculous. Even the three current generation heavy duty trucks are quite different in driving character. You can read about them here:

2011 Heavy-Duty Truck Comparison Test

It's like trying to say the capabilities and driving characteristics of a 2010 Honda Accord are the same as a 2012 BMW 3 series are the same because they are both 4 door sedans.

[phbarnhart]

If I may, what I read REDNAX as saying is that, while driver ability and vehicle specs are important, they're not going to be able to overcome an improperly hitched combination. Or, put another way, the notion that being a good driver and buying a big truck means that one can simply drop a big trailer on the ball and go and be just as safe as someone who has a lesser rig and puts the time and effort into getting the hitch rigging and tire pressures as perfect as possible.

I like the snow tire analogy, AZ, because even the best snow tires won't overcome a bad driver with a rear-drive vehicle. It takes all three to be as safe as possible.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Admit it, we are all just rationalizing our own choices and trying to convince others the fallacy of theirs.

My Burb is better than whatever your using and only I know it, so there!!

Bob

[slowmover]

It's hitch rigging. Don't compromise it. Get the best, set it according to numbers and move on to the next thing. It's a numerical formula applied to some equipment, nothing more.

Why, IOW, are there arguments (excuses) offered to have an inferior setup? A sharply narrower performance envelope?

Our choices about TV's are compromised. But some choices are better than others for a TV strictly from a standpoint of towing the trailer. The other choices important to us may make that particular TV not best for our use at that time. A worse TV is what it is, though.

Driver skill is the most tenuous part of the package: distractions, illness, injury are any of them enough to make "skill" a moot question. Why I find laughable the excuses offered by others on why a WDH with anti-sway isn't needed: time and type of experience, instruction, etc they offer up as remedy. Any of those should show us that it's a fine line between being upright versus being over on the side. Skill -- fine motor skills and peripheral vision -- are the first things out the window under plenty of categories of problems.

Then, on top of it, is the false confidence engendered by a lifetime of driving roads that are smooth, well-marked or well-lit. Take away the enormous budget expended on road construction and maintenance and find out how hard it can be to get TV & TT to the next place on bad roads or under bad conditions. Or both. The physical toll is a serious one.

Add up the usual exigencies of road, load, traffic and weather and there is no good excuse for not having the best set up . . . except false machismo or the like. Whistling in the dark.

It's too cheap and too simple not to buy and apply best hitch, best brakes, best controller.



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[random 17]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Admit it, we are all just rationalizing our own choices and trying to convince others the fallacy of theirs.

My Burb is better than whatever your using and only I know it, so there!!

Bob

To a certain extent, that has always been true regarding vehicles, and in particular, trucks. On this forum, the principle seems to also apply to hitches.

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by azvantage

Vehicles DO matter. A one ton dually is a purpose built vehicle. It's like buying a winter tire for winter conditions vs trying to use all seasons (or even worse, summer tires). Does it work great for everything? No. Does it work great for towing? Yes.

Are all heavy duty trucks comparable? No. Trying to compare or reflect on the driving characteristics of a current generation truck to one from prior generations is ridiculous. Even the three current generation heavy duty trucks are quite different in driving character. You can read about them here:

2011 Heavy-Duty Truck Comparison Test

It's like trying to say the capabilities and driving characteristics of a 2010 Honda Accord are the same as a 2012 BMW 3 series are the same because they are both 4 door sedans.

FYI; 2012 Comparison

http://http://www.caranddriver.com/c...mparison-tests

[BillTex]

BTW az...very nice truck.

Fixed link...boy...new trucks are pricey...

2012 Chevrolet Silverado 2500 LTZ 4WD Crew Cab vs. 2012 Ford F-250 Super Duty King Ranch 4x4 Crew Cab, 2012 Ram 2500 Laramie Longhorn 4x4 Mega Cab - Comparison Tests - Car and Driver