New to towing - F150 & 23FB FC

[danandmimi]

Hi!

My wife and I have been itching to buy a 2015 Flying Cloud, 23FB. We have been considering the purchase for a while, doing our homework, and are about ready to make the purchase. But, I had a question come up that I was hoping to run by the many thoughtful and experienced folks on the forum.

We have a 2013 F-150 3.5L V6 SCREW as the TV. Our F-150 comes with the trailer tow package, and the heavy duty suspension. However, it does not come with 'MAX Trailer Tow Package'. According to Ford's website, the payload for the vehicle is 1570 LBS, with a GVWR of 7200.

We thoughts this was sufficient for the 2015 FC 23FB, which has a tongue weight of 467 lbs (I've been assuming a wet tongue weight between 600-700lbs**). Math below:

1570 lbs = 700 lbs (tongue weight*) + 400 lbs (passengers) + 300 lbs (gear) + 170 lbs (other)

* The dealer has told me the weight distribution hitch will lighten the tongue weight considerably - is this true? I have assumed no.
** Thoughts on this assumption?

However, looking on the side of the driver's door of the TV, I saw the specs on the 'Tire and Loading Information', and saw that 'the combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed' 1323 lbs (photo attached). I am now concerned the TV does not have enough payload for the 23FB, and wonder if I can increase the payload by swapping out the tires for something heavier duty? Or, am I worrying too much, and will 1323 lbs be enough if we have a proper weight distribution hitch?

I've tried speaking with folks at Ford and the dealership, but have not been too successful. The dealership says I don't even need to consider GVWR, and the folks at Ford are saying my payload is 1520. Any thoughts and comments would be well appreciated.

Best,

M&D

[terryV]

I think you have more than enough truck to pull a 23' Airstream. I would suggest a good WD hitch, tho. It will take up some of your tongue wt, and you will be much safer driving down the road.

[cwf]

Welcome! U should b fine with that setup. Get the proper WD hitch... (It doesn't lighten the tongue load, it distributes it further forward if setup properly.

You don't "need" sway control... But you should consider the risks of not having.

Take your time when towing... You will want to keep speeds under 65. And not how often the Trans shifts on grades and flat towing. You may be able to anticipate a hill while on level ground and build a bit of momentum before your climb. On descent slow early and you may have to shift to "manual 3 or 2 gear so you can engine brake instead of riding brakes.

Make sure your trailer brakes can lock tires on gravel just before your truck locks tires. That way the trailer is assisting a little in stopping.

Have fun!

[Airrogant]

Originally Posted by danandmimi

Hi!

My wife and I have been itching to buy a 2015 Flying Cloud, 23FB. We have been considering the purchase for a while, doing our homework, and are about ready to make the purchase. But, I had a question come up that I was hoping to run by the many thoughtful and experienced folks on the forum.

We have a 2013 F-150 3.5L V6 SCREW as the TV. Our F-150 comes with the trailer tow package, and the heavy duty suspension. However, it does not come with 'MAX Trailer Tow Package'. According to Ford's website, the payload for the vehicle is 1570 LBS, with a GVWR of 7200.

We thoughts this was sufficient for the 2015 FC 23FB, which has a tongue weight of 467 lbs (I've been assuming a wet tongue weight between 600-700lbs**). Math below:

1570 lbs = 700 lbs (tongue weight*) + 400 lbs (passengers) + 300 lbs (gear) + 170 lbs (other)

* The dealer has told me the weight distribution hitch will lighten the tongue weight considerably - is this true? I have assumed no.
** Thoughts on this assumption?

However, looking on the side of the driver's door of the TV, I saw the specs on the 'Tire and Loading Information', and saw that 'the combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed' 1323 lbs (photo attached). I am now concerned the TV does not have enough payload for the 23FB, and wonder if I can increase the payload by swapping out the tires for something heavier duty? Or, am I worrying too much, and will 1323 lbs be enough if we have a proper weight distribution hitch?

I've tried speaking with folks at Ford and the dealership, but have not been too successful. The dealership says I don't even need to consider GVWR, and the folks at Ford are saying my payload is 1520. Any thoughts and comments would be well appreciated.

Best,

M&D

That chill up your spine is telling you something that you probably don't want to hear.

That P/U truck is just not big enough for the job as it has far too little payload. The reason that the numbers on the door don't match up with the other numbers you have is most likely due to the weight of options on the truck. Every option you buy on the truck reduces your payload. The door is always right when it comes to payload. Ignore what the dealer said, and what Ford is telling you.

You are right to ask about the tongue weight of the trailer. I can't specifically help you there other than to say that your estimate might be (probably) low. AS trailers have notoriously high tongue weights. I see people talk about 1,000 lb. tongue weights all of the time. They don't discover the surprise until they get it to the scales. There is an active thread running right now about real-world tongue weights that might give you a more accurate estimate.

You are also right to discount your dealer's suggestion that tongue weight is offset by the weight-distribution hitch (WD). In fact the WD actually reduces your payload further. Some of the fancy, expensive hitches weigh almost 200 lbs.! If someone chimes in saying that the WD equipment doesn't get charged to the car, ask them if it should instead increase the tongue weight. All the WD hitch does is transfer weight towards the front of the tow vehicle. It doesn't decrease the overall weights.

Swapping out the tires won't likely effect the payload. However, an argument could be made for replacing some heavy 22" whoppers with some 17" tires with allow wheels. Perhaps the towing gods would allow you to add some payload back onto the door's number. But realistically, how much weight would you save anyway? Going to a higher load rating tire will have no effect on payload. About all you can hope to do is to ditch the spare tire. The key here is that the door's number should be treated as the gospel.

Here is a tool that I like to use when I'm trying to deal with all the variables.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...75097201,d.aWw

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by terryV

I think you have more than enough truck to pull a 23' Airstream.

Yup!

[m.hony]

Get that shiny silver camper, get a WD hitch, and go campin'!

1/2 ton truck pullin' a 30', maybe not ideal, but gittin'-r-dun four years!

[SteveH]

I wouldn't think twice about towing a 23 footer with any 1/2 ton truck. It simply won't be an issue. You do need a good weight distribution hitch, and you do need it set up properly.

Go camping, and have fun.

[dkottum]

A good weight distribution hitch (with sway control) to distribute the hitch weight among the truck's axles and some to the trailer axles, and you're good to go. Load the truck lightly and forward of the rear axle, and load the trailer evenly front to rear concentrating heavy stuff over the trailer axles.

A nicely matched combination.

[Road Ruler]

Doug summed it up nicely.

[danandmimi]

Thanks everybody for the input! Sounds like it should not be an issue - Airrogant I hear you, and will be sure to always check the scales. However, we are picking the FC 23 FB in part because of the tongue weight. We will keep the truck light, load weight forward in the TV, and pack the AS accordingly.

Doug - do you have a make and model weight distribution hitch you would recommend? The TV does have the tow package, including trailer sway control.

Thanks again everyone! This helps comfort our concerns. Once we make our first trip, we will send photos!

Best,

M&D


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[schkube]

We have been towing our 23FB with a 2011 F150 Ecoboost (similar load numbers you mention) and are very comfortable with the combination. After about 1500 miles towing, we did swap our P275/55R20 tires with LT285/55R20 E-rated tires on the truck. That change was not for payload, we just that felt the stock 20's on the truck were bit soft for towing and it was about time for a change on the truck anyhow.

We usually top out our speed around 62 on the interstates and experience no problems on hills. Additionally, by our camping style we don't throw in a lot of heavy stuff in the bed, but also don't skimp on what we need to enjoy our trips!

Tom

[dkottum]

We bought the $2500 ProPride hitch, the best money we have spent on the truck and trailer. It stays on the trailer and the stinger slides into it for towing. Effortless towing, sway eliminated because all push and sway forces on the trailer are projected to the truck rear axle and stabilized, rather than leveraged to the truck steering axle where you will always know they are there.

The economical buy is an Eaz-Lift hitch with two separate friction sway control bars. The hitch will distribute tongue weight and the friction bars will resist sway forces. Very effective hitch when properly adjusted.

Everyone has a favorite.

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by schkube

We have been towing our 23FB with a 2011 F150 Ecoboost (similar load numbers you mention) and are very comfortable with the combination. After about 1500 miles towing, we did swap our P275/55R20 tires with LT285/55R20 E-rated tires on the truck. Tom

Hi Tom... When you switch tire types was there a noticeable difference in the towing experience? Thnxs

[rostam]

Just FYI, there are no standards for calculating the payload. Many people make purchases based on the published payload only to realize the actual payload is much less (sometimes hundreds of pounds less). I really hope, now that the SAE towing standards are adopted by most car companies, SAE focuses on defining a payload standard. Enough people have been screwed by the lack of a standard.

Some manufacturers include a 150# driver, and some don't. Most do not include a full tank of gas/diesel. Options and accessories are not included. Ford apparently removes the spare and the rear bumper before calculating the payload (this is not a joke). GM decided to follow suit, there was an uproar, so they stopped, but Ford apparently still has that practice (they spun it like 'our customers want that' or something).

The most accurate way is to go to CAT scale and weigh your truck and subtract the value from GVWR.

I think your setup is fine, unless you travel VERY heavy.

[schkube]

Originally Posted by Road Ruler

Hi Tom... When you switch tire types was there a noticeable difference in the towing experience? Thnxs

Whether it is actual or perceived, I feel that the "softness" or wiggle in the tires has been reduced when hitched up. The prior tires (Pirelli Scorpions) are known to provide a pretty soft ride.

Additionally, a more aggressive tread, combined with more flexibility on running pressures, the E-range tires just in general feel more stable.

When switching, I considered the staying with the stock size and P-rating, but a different make. However, I decided to move to the higher ply, more rigid E tires. Load-wise, with the 23FB, the stock tires were definitely sufficient and I had no concern there.

For reference, the new tires are Cooper Discoverer At/3's.

Tom

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by rostam

Just FYI, there are no standards for calculating the payload. Many people make purchases based on the published payload only to realize the actual payload is much less (sometimes hundreds of pounds less). I really hope, now that the SAE towing standards are adopted by most car companies, SAE focuses on defining a payload standard. Enough people have been screwed by the lack of a standard.

Some manufacturers include a 150# driver, and some don't. Most do not include a full tank of gas/diesel. Options and accessories are not included. Ford apparently removes the spare and the rear bumper before calculating the payload (this is not a joke). GM decided to follow suit, there was an uproar, so they stopped, but Ford apparently still has that practice (they spun it like 'our customers want that' or something).

The most accurate way is to go to CAT scale and weigh your truck and subtract the value from GVWR.

I think your setup is fine, unless you travel VERY heavy.

The flap about Ford removing the rear bumper and spare tire pertains to the SuperDuty, not the F150. The SuperDuty is available in that configuration (though no one actually buys it that way) so they used that as cover to get the payload number they wanted and not exceed the GVWR cap for Class 3.

Ford includes full fuel and a 150 lb driver when calculating payload on an F150.

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by danandmimi

Hi!

~~
We have a 2013 F-150 3.5L V6 SCREW as the TV. Our F-150 comes with the trailer tow package, and the heavy duty suspension. However, it does not come with 'MAX Trailer Tow Package'. According to Ford's website, the payload for the vehicle is 1570 LBS, with a GVWR of 7200.

~~

I'm curious about what "heavy duty suspension" you have. Is this a modification? The Heavy Duty Payload option includes Max Tow and would have 7-lug rims, I don't know what other heavy duty suspension option they offered.

In any event, unless you're trying to carry a bunch of lead in the truck box I think you'll do fine. You may find that you want to upgrade the tires (as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread) if the P-rated factory tires are a little squishy for you when towing. While towing you'll likely want to increase the air pressure in the tires at least, to the higher range listed on the door tag or the sidewall max. Even if you have the worst axle ratio available (3.15:1) the truck is rated for it's rated for towing 8800 lb, but from the numbers you quoted I think you have the 4x4 which didn't get the 3.15, it started at 3.31:1.

[BoldAdventure]

Ford, GM and Dodge seem to include a 150lb driver and full tank of gas on all their half tons from my research when deciding to buy our tow vehicle.

Where they get payload from and how they come up with GVWR is what is not really standard. I know we all say GVWR - the dry weight, but..... Frankly I would love to hear an engineering explanation. I know different axles, 4x4 vs 2x4 and locking vs open plays a difference but.... I think there is some purposeful fudging of numbers taking place.

Let's compare a my Ram 1500 to my neighbors F150

His F150 has a GVWR of 7600lbs, his axles are rated at Front GAWR 3750lbs and Rear GAWR 3850lbs for a total of 7700lbs or 100lbs over the stated GVWR.

His payload is 1534lbs

Now check this out, I found a guy online with a similar truck:


GVWR 7800lbs, rear axle is a little more than the other one. But when you add up the front and rear axles, even though they are different than the first F150 I posted, they add up to 100lbs over GVWR.



Now, some Dodge folks can verify this. It seems from discussion with other Dodge Owners, that all Dodge Ram 1500's are rated at 6800lbs GVWR.

Both my front and rear GAWR is 3900lbs which amounts to 7800lbs.

That's 1000lbs over the GVWR on the Dodge side compared to Ford's 100lbs.

Consistently Dodge gets hammered for having lower payload ratings than Ford & GM. But I wonder if that's not true.

Many here have commented that payload is only secondary to making sure you are not overloading the front and rear axle.

So the question is, why did Dodge come up with a set GVWR for all their trucks, while Fords moves all over? Why 1000lbs vs 100lbs?

Anyone have any ideas or a theory?

[Ron Gratz]

Originally Posted by danandmimi

* The dealer has told me the weight distribution hitch will lighten the tongue weight considerably - is this true? I have assumed no.
** Thoughts on this assumption?

Use of a WDH does not change the "tongue weight", per se.
However, the vertical load imposed on the TV will be reduced.

A properly sized and properly adjusted WDH can transfer a load equal to about 25% of the tongue weight to the TT's axles.
This means the vertical load imposed on the TT can be equal to about 75% of the TW.
For your estimated 700# TW, the WDH can reduce the imposed load by about 175#.

After accounting for the weight of the WDH (about 75#), the net savings in load is about 100# for this case.

Ron

[danandmimi]

DKB-STAX: the heavy duty suspension may just be something the Ford customer service people told me, as I can't tie it out to any of the paperwork I have on the truck. The axle ratio is 3.55 rear locking.

Thanks for the input! Sounds like LT tires and a good WD hitch are two upgrades to improve safety, which we will surely do!

Thanks!


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