Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-15-2007, 08:20 PM   #57
3 Rivet Member
 
Devils Lake , North Dakota
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 169
There is a place north of here in Canada that will install the DuraMax/Allison set up for $18,000 Canadian (which is about the same as US now)

I would guess they'd do a Suburban for the about the same jingle.
__________________

__________________
Sundance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 08:44 PM   #58
Rivet Master
 
2007 25' Classic
Hydes
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 705
Interesting read. Diesel Cars in the US
I regularly hear and read claims that there is some industry conspiracy against bringing diesel cars to the US, or that Americans won't buy diesels because of the bad taste left behind by the terrible diesel products of the late 70's.

Both claims are, to use an old fashioned word, bunk. Here is a short explanation of why I think diesels are not being introduced yet.

The most significant engineering problem with using diesel engines in light duty vehicles, at this point, is the EPA and the California Air Resource Board (CARB). The EPA has mandated that light duty vehicles meet very stringent emissions standards, called Tier II. Because of their inherently high NOX emissions, diesels can not (cheaply) meet these emissions standards. Diesels can be made to meet these standards with a few tricks. CARB's rules are even more stringent than EPA's--diesel passenger cars have not been certified for sale in California since 2003.

First, clean diesel fuel is necessary, with low sulfur levels, so that catalysts can be used to change the NOX into N2 and O2. Without low-sulfur diesel, the catalysts get "poisoned" by the sulfur in the fuel, and can not do their job. Cleaner diesel fuel should start showing up at the pumps in 2006.

An alternative to using a precious metals based catalyst for NOX controls is to use urea injection, where the chemical is injected in the hot exhaust stream. GM is proposing to use this system for its pickup trucks, but EPA has not approved it yet, as the system would require the driver to keep a urea tank filled.

The other major diesel emissions issue is particulate emissions, or soot. The current solution is to capture the particulates in a particulate trap oxidation catalyst at lower temperatures, and burn the particulate at high temperatures.

As to the noisiness and hard-to-start legend of diesel passenger cars, the myth would be dispelled the moment that modern diesel engine cars from Europe would be demonstrated here. American's aren't stupid, and we don't have a very long memory (not necessarily a good thing). The real consumer objection to diesel performance is that they are low horsepower, high torque engines. Diesel engines don't like to spin fast (peak power might be at 4000RPM, dropping dramatically at higher speeds). In order to get performance closer to a gasoline engine, diesel engines need to be turbocharged (like the VW TDI), and also may need an intercooler.

Diesel engines, because of their higher internal pressures, and high torque output, need to have much stronger internals then a corresponding gasoline engine. A diesel engine may have a compression ratio of 20:1, compared to a gasoline compression ratio of 10:1. A diesel engine will tend to be heavier than a comparable gas engine.

The problem with diesel engines for light duty passenger vehicles boils down to basically one thing: cost. To have a diesel engine that meets EPA and CARB requirements, you need to have a complicated and expensive dual catalyst or urea injection + catalyst system. You need to have a turbocharger and intercooler. You need a much stronger engine block, crank, pistons, connecting rods, valves, and head. You may wind up with an engine that costs several thousand dollars more than a comparable gasoline engine. At which point, the added cost of the powertrain outweighs the short term fuel savings (like HEVs), and the average consumer has no great incentive to buy a diesel powered car.

If the "value equation" isn't right, there is no way that automakers are going to invest heavily in passenger car diesels.
¶ 8:24 PM
__________________

__________________
craftsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 12:10 AM   #59
Rivet Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
Usually I totally agree with you, but if you are talking about the EV1, those cars were all crushed. Unless you have protoype Volts running around.......
Just saw one Friday.
The windows were down but I do not think the guy driving it was lacking any headroom from it being crushed.
I see them, about one or two a week here.
Of course, I am right down the road from the GM Tech Center. My transmission plant is only three miles from it.
We do get to see nifty new models running around, all covered in black padding too! That is when you try to play the game, "Guess what the hell that is"
__________________
Anon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 12:58 AM   #60
Rivet Master
 
safari57's Avatar
 
1951 21' Flying Cloud
1960 24' Tradewind
West Coast , BC
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,790
Images: 10
Send a message via MSN to safari57
I have to ask this question. I often fuel my car up in Blaine, Ferndale or Bellingham, WA. When I pull away and for days after the car has a diesel smell to it near the gas door, yet it's gasoline, and the same goes for my truck. There are diesel pumps further down the island from the gasoline pumps but not right beside the gas pumps and I've been extremely careful to not drive through the usual mess around the diesel pumps or to walk in it. I do not have this issue when fueling up on this side of the border, but of course the cost to do so is prohibitive (wow, a new big word, my wife will be so proud of me).

Any one have any suggestions? Also, is it just this area or are diesel pumps typically pretty gross for lack of cleanliness? I can't imagine having that diesel smell in my attached garage at home all the time, it would drive me crazy. My fuel ups are typically done at Shell, Chevron, and Exxon so not the small dumpy gas stations.

This has been one major deterrent for me on buying a diesel.

Barry
__________________
safari57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:02 AM   #61
Rivet Master
 
safari57's Avatar
 
1951 21' Flying Cloud
1960 24' Tradewind
West Coast , BC
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,790
Images: 10
Send a message via MSN to safari57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
HA HA HA

I think it was fairly expensive...around $50-60k (US). I don't know what it would cost if you already had the burb and just wante the conversion.
Man, if I float those numbers past her I'll lose more than my keyboard privileges ........I lost the hair a long time ago (can't even remember over what now it's been so long) so who knows what it would be now.

It is very intriguing though, other than the issue I've raised in another post here about the smell/cleanliness issue. I do believe that diesel will be a viable alternative for smaller vehicles in the not too distant future.

Barry
__________________
safari57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 05:22 AM   #62
2 Rivet Member
 
memartinde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 22
Cost disadvantage of Diesel engines

The article craftsman quoted
Quote:
Originally Posted by craftsman
Interesting read. Diesel Cars in the US
I regularly hear and read claims ... ... diesels.
8:24 PM
lists and explains a lot of the inherent problemes in trying to make diesel engines more popular.
However, I would like to add one aspect to it:
Gas-engines (at least the ones of the "american iron type" with pushrods, 2-valve-heads, regular-non-adjusting camshafts etc.) are cheaper than diesels (which have to apply expensive technology in order to meet emission control regulations)

True.

But:
I think the picture would be different, if "emissions" would include a larger portion of all the emissions a vehicle generates (may be even evaluating a "typical" life cycle of the product) - e.g. carbon dioxide (equivalent of the amount of fuel burned).
If CO2 would be part of the equation - and it clearly is an (harmful) emission - the gas engine would be evaluated in a more fair way:
It would then have to meet tougher, yet fairer standards that ultimately require the reduction of fuel consumption.
A good example are electric hybrids: potentially effectiv (when applied in a lot of stop-and-go traffic) but expensive - similar to an diesel

Long story short:
Emissions control regulations are not really fair to the diesel (IMHO)
I would like to include CO2 into the view while keeping up the established high standards:
Et Voilá - a much more even race

Finally one question to the potential customers in the US:
Would you require the "new small diesel" to be a V8?
I think a V6 would be cheaper and at this size perfectly fine, right?!
No?!
Comments pls...

Greez

Martin,
happily driving a 2300 lbs AUDI 1.4 ltr TDI
(@ approx 110 SAE hp or 90 DIN hp and 50mpg ) as a daily commuter (not pulling a AS of course - and not, yet, meeting future california emission regulations )
__________________
memartinde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 07:43 AM   #63
Aluminut
 
Silvertwinkie's Avatar
 
2004 25' Safari
. , Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance
There is a place north of here in Canada that will install the DuraMax/Allison set up for $18,000 Canadian (which is about the same as US now)

I would guess they'd do a Suburban for the about the same jingle.
It's a bit different issue installing in a Suburban than it would be in a truck. There are several modifications that need to happen, like frame extension and body lift to name a few.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pattersontoo
Just saw one Friday.
The windows were down but I do not think the guy driving it was lacking any headroom from it being crushed.
I see them, about one or two a week here.
Of course, I am right down the road from the GM Tech Center. My transmission plant is only three miles from it.
We do get to see nifty new models running around, all covered in black padding too! That is when you
That is pretty amazing to me because GM said that the recalled all of them and crushed them. In addition, I also watched the movie who killed the electric car which also appeared to indicate the exact same thing. If there are a few zipping around the Detriot area, hope no one else finds out...it would be yet another black eye for GM given the arrogance and all that followed the end of the EV1.

If you see any more, grab a pic or two and post it.
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
Silvertwinkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 09:06 AM   #64
Rivet Master
 
crispyboy's Avatar
 
1994 30' Excella
alexandria , Kentucky
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,655
Images: 3
Hey Safari 57,
My wife drives a VW Jetta TDI for the past 7 years. No obnoxious fuel smell with the diesel car in the attached garage but...... you get a whiff of diesel smell through the vents when sitting at a stop light. I can handle a little bit of smell at 45 mpg
Car starts in any weather and runs like a scalded dog but..... this car has a few quirks that are better left fixed by the owner and not the dealer.
Apparently you can't buy these cars new in California due to emissions regulations. From what I understand people have to buy them "used" and bring them into California. Our gov't keeps us from getting more fuel efficient cars.... that's a whole different topic/thread.
__________________
crispyboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 09:52 AM   #65
Rivet Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
That is pretty amazing to me because GM said that the recalled all of them and crushed them. In addition, I also watched the movie who killed the electric car which also appeared to indicate the exact same thing. If there are a few zipping around the Detriot area, hope no one else finds out...it would be yet another black eye for GM given the arrogance and all that followed the end of the EV1.

If you see any more, grab a pic or two and post it.
I see them two to three a week.
I don't know what you mean about "arrogance". Contrary to popular belief on here, GM did not set out to have the EV1 project fail. Like I said, I am familiar with this project. If there is anyone else on here who is, then please feel free to speak up.
I also cannot fathom what you mean by "another black eye for GM". I can see that, with all the misinformation found on the web, that I can go nowhere here. If any of you would read the replies to the original article posted you will see that there are two engineers from Troy, MI, (right next door to Warren, MI) that commented on seeing them coming and going all day long.
I will try to get pictures. They are still on the road and they are not sporting Manufacturers license plates.
__________________
Anon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 12:14 PM   #66
3 Rivet Member
 
Devils Lake , North Dakota
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 169
Yes the Suburban conversion would be a bit more labor intensive than going into a truck. The trucks have to be lifted as well to accept the DuraMax set up. Bet he'd do a Suburban for not much more. Just a thought. I seriously considered it before putting in a new long block in my 1 ton Chevy dually.

As to the emission issues with diesel vs gasoline......... If you factor in the additional pollution caused by refining oil from the diesel stage to gasoline there is probably a load of crap that goes into the atmosphere.
__________________
Sundance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 03:49 PM   #67
Rivet Master
 
2007 25' Classic
Hydes
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 705
I see them two to three a week.

I don't know what your seeing but I can't find a reference anywhere on the web that says anything but all EV1's were returned and destroyed.This must be one of the biggest of the urban myths. Can all these sources be wrong? Can you provide one reference to any of these cars ending up in private hands? I don't necessarly believe EVERYTHING that I read but everything that I read about this car say's none survived as private transportation.
__________________
craftsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 04:51 PM   #68
Aluminut
 
Silvertwinkie's Avatar
 
2004 25' Safari
. , Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by craftsman
I see them two to three a week.

I don't know what your seeing but I can't find a reference anywhere on the web that says anything but all EV1's were returned and destroyed.This must be one of the biggest of the urban myths. Can all these sources be wrong? Can you provide one reference to any of these cars ending up in private hands? I don't necessarly believe EVERYTHING that I read but everything that I read about this car say's none survived as private transportation.
Pretty much sums up all that I read as well. Sent you a PM pattersontoo
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
Silvertwinkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 06:40 PM   #69
3 Rivet Member
 
Devils Lake , North Dakota
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 169
What a coincidence, "Who Killed the Electric Car" is on one of the Starz movie channels (SCINE) at 7:20 CST. Go figure.........
__________________

__________________
Sundance is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2003 Safari 25' Melvin P. Thorpe 2003 Safari 24 09-15-2007 11:53 AM
frig and a/c suggestions Neenm General Appliance Topics 6 04-08-2007 08:42 PM
1981 Isuzu Diesel Engine jpurdy Mechanics Corner - Engines, Transmission & More... 10 11-30-2002 11:14 AM
Isuzu Turbo Diesel stuart1 Mechanics Corner - Engines, Transmission & More... 0 10-28-2002 02:23 PM
Towing a small 60s trailer with a SUV... Andy R Tow Vehicles 15 03-30-2002 08:57 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.