Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-31-2007, 10:01 AM   #1
Vintage Kin
 
slowmover's Avatar
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,577
Images: 1
Misconceptions? Long WB TV

Mine or others?

1] The idea that the most important feature of a TV is weight. I've always understood stability to be more closely related to wheelbase; that is, a 124" wheelbase car is inherently more stable than a heavier 118" wb car; all other things being equal. I do not see an inherent advantage to weight, per se. In fact, I can see a real problem with an overly heavy, high-center-of-gravity TV.

2] The idea that a shorter, lighter trailer does not need the same w/d hitch set-up as a longer, heavier trailer (as in, "my 19' does not need
a Hensley Arrow like my 31' did"). I've seen plenty of rigs overturned or wrecked by small trailers coming loose; boats, TT's, horse trailers and the like. The tail ALWAYS wags the dog is my understanding. I've had trailers that weighed less than half the tractor start to drag the tractor under some scary conditions.

These seem like basic assumptions to me.

Anyone?
__________________

__________________
1990 35' Silver Streak Sterling; 9k GVWR.
2004 DODGE Cummins 305/555; 6-manual; 9k GVWR.
Hensley Arrow. 9-cpm solo, 15-cpm towing
Sold: Silver Streak Model 3411
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2007, 10:31 AM   #2
Moderator
 
moosetags's Avatar

 
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
2012 23' FB Flying Cloud
2005 25' Safari
Santa Rosa Beach , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,762
Images: 5
I agree on the wheel base vs. weight issue. I would rather have more wheelbase. Our son in Tampa pulls an '06 Bambi 19' with a Ford F-350 PSD (single rear wheel) crew cab/long box. I'll admit that it looks like an elephant pulling a peanut, but you actually forget that the trailer is there.

As far as the hitch system, I'm for overkill. I would got with my system of preference regardless of the smallness of the Airstream.
__________________

__________________
SuEllyn & Brian McCabe
WBCCI #3628 -- AIR #14872 -- TAC #FL-7
2015 FC 25' FB (Lucy) with HAHA
2005 Suburban 2500 Quadrasteer (Olivia) & 2018 Silverado 2500 (Lillian)
moosetags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2007, 02:34 PM   #3
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelbase is king!

besides many of the short fat suvs can barely carry or control their OWN mass, much less a trailer...

wait a second i resemble that remark!

i've had more payload/capacity/space in carsnstation wagons that many of those gas sucking, air choke-ing, parkinglotpluggin'. tax right off'n road blimps...

and yes, yes, yes bambi needs sway control...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...rol-17986.html

please add some comments to that thread, red'...

we have MANY here and i've met many others while traveling, who use the haha with 16s, 19s, 23, and so on...

them is the squirrel-e handalin' trailers!

they are ALL happy about their choice, relaxed while traveling and seduced by the control!!!

which drives some folks CRAZY i tell ya!

cheers
2air'
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2007, 03:11 PM   #4
Moderator
 
Stefrobrts's Avatar

 
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,905
Images: 50
Blog Entries: 1
Hey, don't be callin' my trailer squirrel-e! We tow on the ball, with sway control, and have never had the slightest bit of problem. Now, I admit, we've never fallen asleep and driven off the road like the folks in that bambi thread, but I'm pretty happy with both lots of wheelbase and weight. I was less happy with WD bars, so we have left them off the last couple years.

I think the whole package is the deal, you can't focus too much on any one thing. And of course, in the end, the proof is in the pudding.
__________________
Stephanie




Stefrobrts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2007, 03:42 PM   #5
Well Preserved

 
1993 21' Sovereign
Colfax , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 20,189
Wheelbase is more important than weight. Our extended-cab F250 was mucho more stable towing than our standard-cab F250. Both weigh roughly the same, so the length is the difference.
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
overlander63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2007, 04:50 PM   #6
Rivet Master
 
1977 31' Sovereign
1963 26' Overlander
1989 34' Excella
Johnsburg , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,941
There are no simplistic anwer to this hypothetical question. There are at least 50 variables going on all the time as you tow down the highway. The relative importance of any one of them changes everytime a gust of wind occurs or you pass or are passed uphill or downhill by one of those big trucks (and it may be raining or snowing at the time). The more miles you travel with various rigs will expose you to more possible answers. Also the danger is inversally proportional to driver's knowledge and experience. The danger is also usually proportional the driver's age minus 70 (As we get older, we think our experience entitles us to drive faster than our diminished reflexes allow.)
__________________
dwightdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2007, 11:51 PM   #7
Vintage Kin
 
slowmover's Avatar
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,577
Images: 1
Yes, but any set of questions is underlain by assumptions. The answer is presupposed thereby. The most basic fact of vehicle safety would seem to be stability . . before weight, before any other "motion" intrudes. Without inherent stability all other "virtues" are cheapened.

The old rule of thumb for having a safe car is:

120" wheelbase or better
4,000-lbs
Front-engine/rear-wheel drive
Low center-of-gravity (thereby)
Nearest equal FF/RR weight distribution
(and then the bandaids of stabilty/traction/brake controls; then passive and active passenger safety devices).

As to the road dynamics, Andy/Inland RV Ctr made mention in an old post about, under Airstreams' auspices, having tested at road speeds and above with an airspeed indicator; that the instrument measured (on meeting oncoming tractor-trailer rigs) speeds of 60, then 120, then below zero, then back up . . . all within a second or so.

The answers can be "simplistic" if they are predictive. According to his work (and recollections) the answers are straightforward enough. The problem would appear to be that every TT/TV has differences that have to be accounted for; thus which questions have preponderance is the difficulty as each rig has to be measured, weighed and tested. And if one of those changes (TV, TT or conditions), then, indeed, simple ain't so simple as one has to start over.

As to age, well, I have a hard time imagining wanting to run faster. One's attention isn't so much reduced as it is changed by age and experience; my own is that I give weight now to things I once did not, and this can affect my attentiveness. Perhaps it is the increased closeness of death that causes us to reflect on the sun across a blowing prairie that once seemed so ordinary. I know it as central to the pleasure of driving, but I do not allow such changes in psyche and energy to keep me from getting out of the vehicle every two hours for at least 15', and every four hours for about 45-60'. These are effective and statistically proven break times from the trucking industry.

My old-ness calls it a time for measurement: "How'ma doin'?" (I guess I should make my inner Cato ["Cathargo delenda est"] read, "Sixty-three for maximum safety; two and four to crack the door"). I know I can run up to 600 miles solo w/o problems this way. But it would not be the way I'd want to make a pleasure run.

An unstable TV (heavy, high COG) makes a longer day; it takes more work.
__________________
1990 35' Silver Streak Sterling; 9k GVWR.
2004 DODGE Cummins 305/555; 6-manual; 9k GVWR.
Hensley Arrow. 9-cpm solo, 15-cpm towing
Sold: Silver Streak Model 3411
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 12:43 AM   #8
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,266
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 51
It's the driver!

Hi, all of these theories have some merit, but whether your tow vehicle is a Pinto or a Kenworth, and your trailer is 12 feet long or 40 feet long, and if you tow by the hitch ball or tow with a "Super Duper Fantastic Hitch" designed by Boeing and manufactured by Rolls Royce, The most important thing is Driver Ability. Without decent driver abilities, you could weld the trailer frame directly to your truck frame [solid] and someone will still lose control of it and crash.
A proper set up is always recommended, but all the magic formulas won't help everyone out there in trailer land.
__________________
Bob

2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent"
[ Small Silver Castle ]
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
ROBERTSUNRUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 06:18 AM   #9
Rivet Master
 
boatdoc's Avatar
 
1973 Argosy 26
Norristown , Pennsylvania
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 644
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS
Hi, all of these theories have some merit, but whether your tow vehicle is a Pinto or a Kenworth, and your trailer is 12 feet long or 40 feet long, and if you tow by the hitch ball or tow with a "Super Duper Fantastic Hitch" designed by Boeing and manufactured by Rolls Royce, The most important thing is Driver Ability. Without decent driver abilities, you could weld the trailer frame directly to your truck frame [solid] and someone will still lose control of it and crash.
A proper set up is always recommended, but all the magic formulas won't help everyone out there in trailer land.
Hi Robert;
Your above statement covers most important issue not only a nutshell, but in a shape of a large Coconut shell. This issue can be discussed till dooms day much as beating dead horse, simply for a reason that there are hundreds of variables which can change our predicament right down the line, on the road ahead of us. While the wheelbase aids in directional stability it cannot outperform common sense. You simply should not try to tow a 31" TT with a Honda. Even the best computer will not formulate that.

Perhaps is time that we re-defined the true meaning of the word "accident". We have learned to omit what led to it. It is never our fault. It is always covered by excuse; "I spun out", "I could not stop because the road was icy", "guy ahead of me jammed his brakes", and the list goes on forever.
Let's face it, only about 2 percent of today's so called accidents are true accidents. Word accident should encompass [things which happen beyond our control]. Example statement should be;
"I was driving down the road and got hit by Meteor falling from the sky".
Most of vehicular crashes due to lack of driving skills. This includes,
ignorance of the rules, overconfidence in driving skills, lack of anticipation of the conditions ahead, as well as lack of awareness of vehicle's limitations to control it. You cannot stop faster on ice than 2 WD because you have 4WD, nor will you have more directional stability because you have 140" wheelbase which is relative to the towed weight. While this can be argued some, but it is of no major consequence versus common sense. Being continuously aware of possible predicament you may find yourself in, while considering your speed and road conditions ahead of you, is by far the best assurance of your safety.
But even that is not a guarantee because someone else may neglect above. No $3000.00 hitch set up can help you in that situation. Why do we insist on placing everyone in a protective bubble, rather than use God given common sense? [no one better dare to answer that]. Are the days of common sense gone forever? I have watched a box truck towing 16' flat bed trailer carrying a car on it. It just started to rain. While making a turn, the dually rear of the box truck slid sideways and jackknifed. The trailer whipped around by spun out of control truck and hit unfortunate man sitting in his Porsche waiting for green arrow. At impact, transported car had a flipped car off the trailer on top of Porsche. The trailered car had no tie downs. Oil silkened road and fast turn to beat the light, hardly qualifies for the term of true accident. Since we are not alone on the road we cannot allow ourself to think that the most expensive hitch or tow set up will keep us safe at all times. While proper set up has much to do with our safety on the road, I would not trade "common sense" for a "Hensley Hitch". Thank you, "Boatdoc"
__________________
boatdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 09:47 AM   #10
Moderator
 
HiHoAgRV's Avatar

 
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central , Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,325
Images: 29
Blog Entries: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS
Hi, all of these theories have some merit, but whether your tow vehicle is a Pinto or a Kenworth, and your trailer is 12 feet long or 40 feet long, and if you tow by the hitch ball or tow with a "Super Duper Fantastic Hitch" designed by Boeing and manufactured by Rolls Royce, The most important thing is Driver Ability. Without decent driver abilities, you could weld the trailer frame directly to your truck frame [solid] and someone will still lose control of it and crash.
A proper set up is always recommended, but all the magic formulas won't help everyone out there in trailer land.
Yea - what you said
__________________
Hi Ho Silver RV! Vernon, Sarah, Mac the Border Collie -
A honkin' long 34' named AlumaTherapy http://www.airforums.com/forums/f205...num-54749.html
and a 26' '63 Overlander, Dolly http://www.airforums.com/forums/f109...ome-71609.html
HiHoAgRV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 10:39 AM   #11
2 Rivet Member
 
gotohatteras's Avatar
 
2006 23' Safari SE
Avon , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 63
Don't ever drive over 60 mph...and slow down from there as needed for traffic congestion, wet road, rough road, curves, etc. Never follow too close. If you do, then all bets are off, and regardless of the tow setup being perfect...inertia will take over and all kinds of factors will spring up that can take control from you. Normal following distance at 55-60 under perfect road conditions and perfect tow and camper conditions would be at least 4 seconds gap. Use a pole or marker on side of road to count off the gap interval. Add 2 more seconds for wet road, and 6 more seconds for snow road(and slow down to 45-50 mph.), and for ice...get off the road!
__________________
DW always tells me to "take the high road"...

2006 23' Safari
2007 F350 Lariat Crew 4X4 PSD
AIR# 21875
WBCCI# 3778
Region 3, Unit 144 (Eastern North Carolina)
gotohatteras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2007, 02:00 AM   #12
2 Rivet Member
 
Loren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 76
It's too late for me to come up with a long, witty comment on the above post, so I'll come up with a short, factual one.

A twelve-second following distance at 60 mph is 1056 feet, one-fifth of a mile, or a bit more than 50 car-lengths.

Loren
__________________
2012 New Horizons Travel Trailer (formerly an Airstream owner)
2008 Dodge 2500 diesel with Equal-i-zer hitch.
Loren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2007, 11:16 AM   #13
Just an old timer...
 
85MH325's Avatar

 
Tipton , Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,031
Images: 37
Ok, I've read or been involved in almost every thread here about hitches, their designs, relative merit, and read nearly everything written here about wheelbase, tires, trailer axle to ball proportions... and that's probably all important.

BUT... (and this is a biggie)... what none of them to date has mentioned is the coefficient of friction of any given roadway. The coefficient of friction of a roadway surface is the roadway's ability to allow the tires to grip it. The article link is a very good description of how coefficient of friction is used in accident investigation to determine speed at impact from skidmarks, but the same physical laws are critical in maintaining control of your vehicle.

All of the other factors discuss affect how the loads above the tires move and inter-relate, but the real issue is literally "where the rubber meets the road". Assuming all other factors equal, an emergency avoidance maneuver on one roadway may be successful, but the exact same circumstances on another roadway with a lower coefficient of friction may, in fact, lead to a crash. Roadway surface variance in coefficient of friction is a leading factor in why "one-size-doesn't-fit-all" in these hitch/tow vehicle/trailer/weight/distribution discussions.

Sheet ice has a coefficient of friction of around 0.1 while a new dry surfaced roadway may have a coefficient of friction around 0.8. The coefficient of friction of a roadway changes with surface type, and decreases with polishing (roadway wear) and lubricants (water, ice, oil, etc.)

The coefficient of friction is pivotal in your tow vehicle/trailer combo maintaining control.

That, I suspect, along with speed over the roadway (translates to momentum that allows the tires to overcome the roadway surface friction) are THE two most important factors in sway control and collision avoidance.

Roger
__________________

__________________
AIR 2053 Current: 2006 Born Free 32 RQ Kodiak Chassis, & 1995 Coachmen B-van
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
85MH325 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2011 Ford F250 Diesel - Don't Drive One Unless.. ShinyRoad Tow Vehicles 119 01-20-2012 09:06 PM
The long road ahead..... prob All Argosy Trailers 10 11-26-2011 08:32 AM
Vintage Fusion - the story of our '69 AS Remodel monah 1959-69 Tradewind 255 09-08-2011 11:40 AM
"The Long, Long Trailer" GeocamperAS Hitches, Couplers & Balls 14 05-10-2011 08:02 PM
California Silver Sisters Rally in Coloma, California March 25-27, 2011 kristiana Forum Rallies & Meet Ups 47 03-27-2011 04:57 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.