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Old 06-12-2008, 03:57 AM   #15
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-what generation g wagon? the new model is VERY different from the last version graymarketed, stateside...
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GL is the new version, G Wagon was the old one.

We tow everywhere with our ML. The power is totally adequate. I'm on my second ML and my next TV will be a BlueTEC GL.

And remember, I said "rule of thumb". Not everybody's thumb is the same.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:25 AM   #16
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While I share 2Air's concerns, it appears that the 320GL is tow rated at 7500 lbs. That's certainly in the range of the 28' trailers. I prefer a higher tow vehicle to trailer weight ratio because I like every advantage I can have not to be pushed around by the trailer. But the factory tow rating is certainly in the ballpark.

Roger
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:58 AM   #17
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Wow, this is an amazing site. You all really know your stuff. Thanks so much for all the information. Yeah, it is a new Mercedes. The dealership installed the tow hitch. Evidently there has been a recall and a specialist is coming in today to check the hitch and we will talk to him about the trailer. The trailer is an International CCD, 2006. We have - I should say, my husband has towed just about everything. Thirty years ago he was towing a 24ft pop up with a diesel Rabbit, so he has no concerns. He has a motorcycle and on the rare occasion he wants to take it, I'll be doing the driving, so, I want to be as safe as possible. A 23 or 25 would probably be a better route, but I fell in love with this model and there will be occasions a couple of our teenage kids might join us, so the biggest unit, that is towable with what we have seems the best option. We actually are doing everything backwards. We use to live in Florida and had a 40ft motorhome. We have retired and moved north. My husband has motorcycles and wanted a toy hauler. I couldn't find anything I liked, but fell in love with the Basecamp. I love it but it isn't his cup of tea. Also, we took the kids (16 and 18) and they slept in a tent and refused to ever go again (That is was August and 95 didn't help). So, now we are trying to find a compromise. I think Airstreams are just awesome. I've always wanted one. If it were just me I would keep my little Basecamp. So, anyhow, we are trying to find a compromise that will make everyone happy. We have camped just about everywhere, but I imagine these days we will stick to the East coast. We probably won't go more than 6 times a year, because we still have the 16 year old at home. In two years when she heads to college I can see us going all the time. We love Canada and I'm sure we will be heading to the Cabot trail quite a bit. So, I am glad to hear there are those of you with the vehicle I have and think it will be fine. I will meet with the Mercedes hitch guy today. Thanks again, and I'm sure I will have a million more questions once(if) we get this unit. Mary
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Old 06-12-2008, 12:19 PM   #18
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...it appears that the 320GL is tow rated at 7500 lbs. That's certainly in the range of the 28' trailers...
right roger, so it is in the same range as the t-rex and cayenne for towing capacity...

and the sane folks here using those to tow, max out at 25 or so for modern 'streams....

BUT the published payload for the NEW GL appears to be around 1000lbs which isn't much.

with 4 passengers and a 250 lb hitch (the haha) that figure is quickly reached...

without even including the trailer tongue weight which will be 800 lbs or more...

so very quickly they are at 1,800 lbs + for payload, well OVER the vague ratings available...

the GL has a gvwr of around 6800lbs and a curb with of 5300lbs approximately...

so even using the difference as a more generous payload of 1500 lbs, they will be over this...

in some ways this tv is like many of the 1500 series sub-urban based suvs only with a SHORTER wheelbase...

it's heavy to begin with which doesn't leave much for capacity.

yes the diesels has good torque, but combined with a modern 28 ft trailer this rig could weigh 13-15,000 lbs...

good background info mary...

the details are useful and so is the rv'ing history.

it reads like u need another moho pulling the basecamp with the motorbike INSIDE it...

that might cover all bases (basecamp, kids, hubby and all in an rv)...

but with only 6 trips a year, that 100,000$ merc' can be made to haul...

so whatever u decide to try, go safely and enjoy the travels!

2air'
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Old 06-12-2008, 04:03 PM   #19
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Maybe there needs to be a "push" rating, instead of a "tow" rating.
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Old 06-12-2008, 05:04 PM   #20
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Just a question,with load on rear and independent suspension,doesn`t the alignment go out of whack,wearing out inside of tires. I had an old Vette with hitch,decided I couldn`t tow anything with it. Dave
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Old 06-12-2008, 05:14 PM   #21
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Just a question,with load on rear and independent suspension,doesn`t the alignment go out of whack,wearing out inside of tires. I had an old Vette with hitch,decided I couldn`t tow anything with it. Dave
Indeed it does, though not as much as you would think. Without going heavily into the dynamics of multilink rear suspensions, part of what happens is that the weight pushes the bottom of the tire out, but pushes the front of the tire in, and the force of the car going forward moves the tires back into line while driving. You will still have more wear on the front tires than the rears.
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Old 06-12-2008, 08:25 PM   #22
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I might give some info from my statement last night... I was intrested with all the info on Mercedes that I went to there website. You might consider it. from what I am reading it will lay it all to rest. I am seeing 7400 max tow capacity. Thats it. Basically a light duty half ton excludeing the wheel base. My opinion is you would be fine under Ideal conditions at best.Mercedes-Benz USA | Browser Upgrade Required
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Old 06-12-2008, 10:40 PM   #23
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"and NOT get pushed around by a trailer that is too much for the tow vehicle...

i also don't wanna rely on "maneuvers" when the manure hits the fan..."


Okay, 2Air, I'll bite: When does the trailer push one around assuming one has been able to stay on the pavement (and in the dirt the top heavy vehicle is the one likeliest to roll over). I've towed with those big cars from more than a generation ago and can't remember this occurring, even with the trailer outweighing the car substantially (little different than when one is pulling todays big trailers EVEN WITH a one-ton truck).


And if one is reliant on only trailer and truck brakes to save one in an emergency -- because the TT/TV rig is traveling too fast to maneuver, which is at a lower speed with a straight axle truck -- then the problem isn't with the rig, but the driver. Steering control trumps brakes . . always.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:05 AM   #24
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Just a question,with load on rear and independent suspension,doesn`t the alignment go out of whack,wearing out inside of tires. I had an old Vette with hitch,decided I couldn`t tow anything with it. Dave
I guess it would depend on the design on the IRS.

I once talked with a guy who was towing a large Airstream with a Caddy DTS. He said the car handled the Airstream very well as it was a pro set up. He did say the only minor negative was that he did get some wear on one of the rear tires when towing.

For three years now we have been towing with an IRS vehicle. In the interest of science I have been measuring and logging tire wear every 5,000klm's with a tire depth guage. Measurements are taken on the inside, middle, and outside section of the tires. No abnormal tire wear is evident.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:24 AM   #25
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"and NOT get pushed around by a trailer that is too much for the tow vehicle...

i also don't wanna rely on "maneuvers" when the manure hits the fan..."

Okay, 2Air, I'll bite: When does the trailer push one around assuming one has been able to stay on the pavement (and in the dirt the top heavy vehicle is the one likeliest to roll over). Steering control trumps brakes . . always.
REDNAX, we've covered this before here but the variable you can't control is the condition of the road surface. When traction is reduced because of road surface, your ability to steer and brake is reduced. The towed vehicle pushes the tow vehicle, and the only thing you have going for you is the mass of the tow vehicle being able to resist being pushed. Hence the statement that the heavier the tow vehicle, the less likely it is to be pushed by the trailer in a reduced traction situation.

As a case in point, I refer you to Michelle's thread about her accident despite that she was towing with a full-sized pickup that was rated for her load.

Roger
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:34 AM   #26
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I know it is hard to get your head around using a modern tow vehicle when you have not been able to drive one set up properly with an Airstream, heck I likely would not beleive it either if we had not been doing it for 20 years.

When the road conditions are poor a vehicle with low unsprung weight and a lower center of gravity will become exponentially better handling than a tall stiffly sprung vehicle just because it will keep it's tires planted on the road. Drive a HD pick up around an rough exit ramp a little quickly and you can experience significant bump steer on the rear axle espessially as the tires are leaving the road. This does not happen on a vehicle with a good independent suspension.

If you were to test the vehicles alone the GL Mercedes will out handle the 3/4 ton truck easily. Likely 5-7 MPH in a slolom, more G's on a skid pad and substantially shorter stopping distance. Hooking an Airstream to it does not suddenly make it a lot worse and the truck a lot better. In fact a slalom course with a few bumps in it I could likely run the Mercedes and 28' Airstream through as quickly as a 3/4 ton diesel solo. Stopping distance with the Airstream would be 30-40' shorter with the Mercedes.

The best way to stay out of a liability issue is not to have the accident in the first place so if you can stop shorter and make an emergency maneuver faster you are far less likely to be involved in an accident. If you have to drive off the road to avoid a collision you are far more likely to stay upright and the roof is far less likely to collaps if you do roll over. Worst case senario and you do hit someone the MB is going to do a lot less damage to them than a 3/4 ton truck will.

I know lots of people like to tow with a big heavy truck and some like the fact that you don't feel much from the trailer. But not feeling anything does not mean it is safer it just means you feel insulated from what is really happening.

Another factor is that very few trailers Airstreams included are connected optimally if the hitch is wrong you will notice it less with the big truck than a smaller vehicle.

You can tow with the Mercedes any speed you care to pay for.

Andy
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:39 PM   #27
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I know it is hard to get your head around using a modern tow vehicle when you have not been able to drive one set up properly with an Airstream, heck I likely would not beleive it either if we had not been doing it for 20 years.
thanks for the response andy...

it isn't difficult to understand the concepts at all...

like...
the low center and
great brakes and
modern power and
precise steering and
wider suspension and stance
performance tires and
addition of a haha and
crafting a unibody specific receiver and
reduced rear over hang
and so on...

also it IS nice to see a business SO dedicated to what they do....

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When the road conditions are poor a vehicle with low unsprung weight and a lower center of gravity will become exponentially better handling...
agreed, but in THIS case the merc isn't low, except compared to BIG suvs and trucks...

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Originally Posted by Andrew T View Post
...If you were to test the vehicles alone the GL Mercedes will out handle the 3/4 ton truck easily. Likely 5-7 MPH in a slolom, more G's on a skid pad and substantially shorter stopping distance...
agree, and having several performance cars that all spend time on the track remind myself of this often.

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...In fact a slalom course with a few bumps in it I could likely run the Mercedes and 28' Airstream through as quickly as a 3/4 ton diesel solo
this may very well be true,

but it is the basis for one of my MAJOR concerns...

-the vast majority of drivers of ANYTHING do not spend time on slalom courses...

-they do not LEARN or PRACTICE high speed maneuvers like full on braking or steering fast or accelerating OUT of a turn...

-they don't PRACTICE accident avoidance or dealing with skids, lane changes, blow outs and so on...

AND those that do, do these things don't practice them in TRAFFIC...

-they do NOT learn about the apex or the friction circle or 'brake, steer, accelerate...

they do NOT learn how slip angles, the changing traction and the contact patch APPLY in real situations...

and so on.

the basic reality is MOST drivers can barely control their vehicles in everyday life WITHOUT a trailer....

we see LOTS of well designed, and engineered vehicles in the DITCH because of 'overdriving and inexperience' by the pilot.

most drivers who begin to react are soon thinking about the coffee cup or burger or pooch or other flying debris INSIDE,

instead of ideal road reactions...

BRAKING is the most practiced everyday driving skill (unfortunately)

and LOTS of technology goes into making brakes better...

in 2-5 lanes of traffic even thinking about a lane change IS dangerous and often makes bad situations worse.

so YOUR ability to demonstrate advanced handling of a car/trailer is misleading to the average person...

it is 'driving porn' we LOVE to look at it, wanna try it, and mistakenly believe it's how things might be...

but the everyday world it ain't...

and the goal here is to safely tow a long heavy 2 axle trailer and 4 people and gear....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T View Post
The best way to stay out of a liability issue is not to have the accident in the first place...
agreed again but i'd also suggest having the proper tool (which is the point of debate) for YOUR skills is important too.,.

-overload the axles,
-overload the suspension,
-overload the tires and
-overload the unibody or frame...

and a really great handling car/suv will NOT perform in the ideal way it did EMPTY...

now add a driver OVERLOADED with beliefs about their driving skills and bad thing will happen.

it often seems your approach includes DISREGARDING the rated capacities for the basic mechanical bits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T View Post
I know lots of people like to tow with a big heavy truck and some like the fact that you don't feel much from the trailer...
i'm NOT thrilled at using a big truck,

-they rollover
-they collapse
-they don't have great head/neck protection
-the brakes are undersized relative to the mass
-and they aren't very aerodynamic...

BUT the raised driving position and mass and WHEELBASE help with towing...

i willingly TRADE crisp handling for wheelbase WHEN TOWING A LARGE trailer,

and then drive ACCORDING to the handling limits available from the truck, e rated tires and leaf springs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T View Post
Another factor is that very few trailers Airstreams included are connected optimally...
no arguement here either and you seem dedicated to doing this well...

but HOW does that really help someone how ISN'T in your market...

most hitch shops are hacks, but traveling 100s or 1000s of miles and OUT of the country isn't the solution either.

and buying into YOUR approach usually also means adjusting travel patterns and habits...

for example i just towed through an area of interstate with bumper to bumper semis and utility trailers and nitwits on cell phones...

the speed limit was 75mph and the minimum was 55 mph and EVERYONE was traveling 80+ mph.

including the construction zones...

so slowing to 55 wasn't an option and would have been a huge hazard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T View Post
You can tow with the Mercedes any speed you care to pay for...
agree completely with the caveat that financial and personal LIABILITY are significant parts of the COST....

and these issue differ n/s of our border...

so consider the fact/observation that NO SHOPS (that i'm aware of) in the usa DO what you do anymore...

cheers
2air'
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:41 PM   #28
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[I]REDNAX, we've covered this before here but the variable you can't control is the condition of the road surface. When traction is reduced because of road surface, your ability to steer and brake is reduced. The towed vehicle pushes the tow vehicle, and the only thing you have going for you is the mass of the tow vehicle being able to resist being pushed. Hence the statement that the heavier the tow vehicle, the less likely it is to be pushed by the trailer in a reduced traction situation.

As a case in point, I refer you to Michelle's thread about her accident despite that she was towing with a full-sized pickup that was rated for her load.

Roger

Roger, I've read the thread about Michelle's accident, and the only thing I see is that any vehicle would likely have wound up in the same position, with the caveat noted that a different vehicle may have offered more sensitivity to the trailer; 3/4 and 1-T trucks are notoriously "dead" to what they are towing. Having driven hundreds miles on and off of sheet ice in a Class tractor/trailer (as a US Mail contract driver) back in the winter of 2000 I have an idea of the problems faced. One can conjecture that an AWD vehicle with Electronic Stability Control might have allowed further steering control in this accident. Certainly the truck was of no advantage before, during or afterwards.

As to the addition of "coefficient of friction" added to the discussion about towing, I agree it is part of the package to consider about a TV/TT combination. But it isn't anything the driver can control beyond reducing speed. And a TV with better steering feedback and a more compliant suspension than a 3/4 or 1T truck is likely to HAVE the advantage here. (And let's not make the assumption that I am speaking of a 9,000-lb trailer with this).

As with the more deadly problem, one that a weather or traffic report cannot help predict -- that of a "tripping hazard", an object in the roadway that upsets either or both of the vehicles -- it is of more serious concern than the roadway surface as it is impermanent, transitory. One may not see it in time to stop (hopefully, one is already traveling not far above maneuvering speed and can do some braking and/or accelerating prior to and during a lane change), but here, again, there is no advantage to having a pickup. That there may be other traffic around is part of the equation of what to do. The limitation, the weak link, may be the driver, but he/she is handicapped by a rig that is poor in handling and braking.



"so slowing to 55 wasn't an option and would have been a huge hazard."

"drive ACCORDING to the handling limits available from the truck, e-rated tires and leaf springs..
"

Well, 2Air, which shall we choose? The liability we face in speeding -- and the abandonment of responsibility engendered by so grossly exceeding our TT/TT's capabilities -- or to drive according to the rather severe limits we face in using a heavy, high-center-of-gravity TV pulling an unwieldy load?

The law only permits me to travel within the prescribed limits. And the likelihood of my surviving a bad accident is predicated on a lower speed. If that means that other vehicles hit mine, then it is still better than the alternative of loss of control at 80 mph, in fact it may be my ONLY alternative given that I haven't been smart enough to exit a roadway where all the traffic poses such a hazard as you've described.

It's why I carry an asssortment of maps.

Granted that Americans aren't well-trained as drivers. That most probably do not ever try to get a feel for what their rig can and cannot do. Calling it porn cheapens the reasons for the discussion, as if it is beyond the pale. If we are to arrive at some consensus on what, [A] constitutes the best TV/TT rig for roadability; and [B) what constitutes the best driving practices for same, then it may be we need some better idea of how to classify what it is we're talking about. If every other rig is short of ideal, then there is still a difference between them that is worth noting.

Your rig is, I will not only assume, but would defend, better than my own for roadability. I have a hunch that Ford's may handle better (mine needs a rear anti-roll bar; and the FF/RR rake is high); your trailer is heavier but has the more sophisticated suspension and far better brakes; and you've worked out the details of your hitch rigging I've been unable to yet attend to.

Given either of our rigs, ANY driver is likely to put yours through the course at a better speed, and stop more easily. However constrained they may both be by comparison to an IDEAL, real-life would point towards yours, rather than mine for those of use with an interest in the subject, and motivated to share what we've learned with others. I see no other point to all these discussions: safe traveling.

Driver skill is the subject that is beyond the pale. Some are okay, most are poor-to-middling (based on accident avoidance skills interpolated from accident analysis), and a few may be gifted. What can we say? Next to nothing so far as I can tell. The driver is and will remain the weakest link, be it aircraft pilots, professional truck drivers or vacationers pulling trailers.

I opt for, as I drive, being conservative in all ways, striving for smoothness and grace within the legal boundaries. If there is a good book to read on the subject, then I'll get a copy. If I can find a good discussion online I'll follow it. Etcetera. There is nothing really objective about it, as there is with discussions of equipment, maintenance and repairs. I can't postulate that my driving is an example to follow, as on any given day it may not be.

But this does not preclude our discussing what, and why one type of equipment is better than another.

A German-engineered TV with a capacity of 7,500-lbs is, for those who can afford it, a better choice in that it is closer to the ideal. And if one is concerned that only one hitch shop is doing it, then . . . ? We can't read for ourselves what is being done in Europe, Australia or New Zealand? Beyond the dither about lawsuits, when was the last time this country was world-leading in any aspect of personal or mass transportation beyond military or business-executive type? The 1960's?

Making qualified comments would be more to the point than out-and-out condemning another approach, especially as it does not appear to hold water. Making qualified comments does not put a person in one camp or another (for those unable to think except in black-and-white), especially when illustrating a specific point about a specific rig being used in a specific way.

The future of travel trailers is decidedly not, as a class, in the camp of 3/4 and 1-ton trucks.
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