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Old 04-02-2017, 12:32 PM   #21
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On direct injection engines, the fuel does not pass over the intake valves, so the cleansing properties of fuel are of no benefit to these valves.

I installed an Oil catch can (Elite Engineering) onto my 6.2L direct injection GM engine and I verify that I'm "catching" a significant amount of crud that would otherwise be potentially deposited on the hot intake valves.

It's an easy install and just requires making sure the can does not fill up.
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Old 04-02-2017, 12:46 PM   #22
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I don't no of any gas station that uses only one refinery for gasoline as market gas is prevalent. Case in point my uncle was tank car loading mgr. major refinery, shipped to various brand of stations , plus he stated pipe ran under ground to dif. brand refinery across road. When either went short used others fuel. I can not verify if still practiced as he passed away a few yrs. ago. I have always pur, least expensive and lowest grade, never have prob. in 68 yrs. of driving. When racing I use only fuel formulated for type of racing we do. As far as good or bad fuel use a station that sells lots of fuel as fuel is fresher and changes filters when scheduled.
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Old 04-02-2017, 01:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by greghoro View Post
Ok, I'll bite. Two responses make this suggestion.

How does one know if they are purchasing good quality fuel? Or bad quality fuel?

What does one look for when pulling into the station or up to the pump?


Greg
When at home, use a brand that you have had good results with. Here in BC, I use Chevron and Imperial. Chevron has Techron, and often 94 AKI rating, with no ethanol.

When travelling, use name brands. Look for high volume stations, for better chances of fresher fuel. I don't refuel at a station that is receiving a load of fuel, as it can stir up sediment. That shouldn't matter, because of the filters on the pumps, but those can be unmaintained or bypassed by unconscientious station operators.

Use as little ethanol as possible. The rules about a certain % being mandated generally apply to all fuel sales, not each gallon, so they often put more in the cheaper fuel here, and less in the better fuel.

Top Tier is a fine standard for getting more deposit control additives, which is what it was developed for, but has no impact otherwise on fuel quality (water, ethanol, sediment, etc). See the Top Tier spec and see how little it considers. I won't cross the road to get to a Top Tier station over a non-Top Tier station, subject to the above guidelines.

Use fuel with a sufficient AKI, but not higher. My NA engines ran fine on 87 or 89, my turbocharged engines ran fine on 89 but better on 91 and incredibly on 94 with zero ethanol.

Sometimes, not always, higher AKI ratings come with more detergents.

If the pump is slowing down, could be a low level in the tank or a plugged filter. Neither is good. Use a different pump, don't keep trying to get the last bit out.

Pay attention to how your engine runs. If you notice a difference after refueling, note down which fuel you used.

Remember that what it says on the pump isn't necessarily what comes out the nozzle. Many ethanol related problems in service departments come from much higher % ethanol than the fuel is supposed to have per the label. Easy to test for. Not engine warranty.

That is off the top of my head. Probably more ideas out there. Family business was an independent garage, with a Chevron station. Business was also a wholesale fuel distributor. Daughter works for a different major oil company. Made lots of warranty decisions related to poor fuel as a former service manager.

Cheers

Jeff
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Old 04-02-2017, 03:04 PM   #24
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I purchased a direct injection BMW six cylinder in 2007, and followed similar reports of issues with deposits on intake valves. I never had an issue, but some did.

There appear to be two factors impacting the frequency of this problem occurring. Firstly, lots of short trips, and the engine not having time to warm up fully. That can lead to issues with the EGR system, and condensation buildup makes it worse. Oily deposits in the EGR do see the back of the intake valves, and can cause deposits. As noted in the video, direct injection engines don't have the benefit of the fuel system cleaners/detergents being sprayed in that area as do port injection engines. Techron works great at keeping injectors clean, but doesn't get at the location where these deposits occur. Related to the first issue is whether the vehicle ever gets hot and works hard. Modern high performance engines like to work every now and then, idling them endlessly isn't a recipe for success. Getting them good and hot, what used to be called an Italian tune up, reduces the frequency of this happening. The second factor appears to be fuel quality, as this can vary quite a bit geographically. The fuel doesn't see the back of the intake valve, but misfires do lead to increased deposits, and there appears to be a correlation.

Use good quality fuel, get the engine good and hot from time to time (pulling up a hill, towing a trailer, is a good recipe for that) and don't worry overly about things that aren't as widespread as the internet makes them appear.

Jeff
AGREE with everything above. Your "Italian" tune-up, we call a "401 tune-up". Same thing, to achieve the same result. A good thing to do.

I own an F-150 3.5 Ecoboost, and anytime I have it out, I ensure that it has a decent run to get the oil up to at least 185F or better.
I've done this with all my vehicles, since having a crankshaft break on an Austin 'Cambridge' A-55 Mk. ll. The crank was pitted from the sulfuric acid from cold oil.
I'm using Mobile 1 Synthetic oil, and regular 87 Oct. Esso gas.
My Ford has 85,000+ KM. on it now, and so far no issues. (Thank Heavens)
(E.S.S.O.: "Every sucker Stops Once.")
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Old 04-02-2017, 03:09 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Isuzusweet View Post
Sorry Randy I don't own a Ecoboost but I have friends in high places in the Ford organization, also parts and service. These people have spoken in the past at their own hesitation at owning an Ecoboost (parts person bought a 5.0), but wouldn't talk specifically about what possible problems there are.

I just came across this video, and while sceptical at first, a lot of it made sense. Turbo's do create a lot more heat inside an engine and engine bay, which is the reason manufacturers use intercoolers to cool intake air. Turbo's are also susceptible to bad oil,(wearing out turbine shafts) as well as timing chains as a previous poster noted.

I also totally agree on a previous posters note on fuel quality. A good quality fuel will not coke up, leave deposits and burn more effectively and efficiently.

I did not post this with the intent of stirring up a hornets nest or scaring anyone but to pass along relevant information on an engine that is prevalent in this forum. I did not pass any personal judgement on the video I posted.

Just another tid bit.....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/ford...2017-1.4051374

Cheers
Tony
Tony;
A good discussion here; but FYI, the MAIN purpose of the intercooler is to greatly reduce the heat of compression, to give the engine a denser charge. Any other benefits are ancillary.
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Old 04-02-2017, 06:01 PM   #26
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Never heard of "Toptiergas" in Ontario.
So What's so special about it?
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Old 04-02-2017, 07:18 PM   #27
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April fools joke?
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Old 04-02-2017, 07:32 PM   #28
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fake news! check multiple sources first. beware of people that make money from what they post
caveat emptor
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Old 04-02-2017, 07:44 PM   #29
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Tony;
A good discussion here; but FYI, the MAIN purpose of the intercooler is to greatly reduce the heat of compression, to give the engine a denser charge. Any other benefits are ancillary.
Isn't that exactly what I stated??

"Turbo's do create a lot more heat inside an engine and engine bay, which is the reason manufacturers use intercoolers to cool intake air."

as a result of the intake air being compressed through a turbo and picking up a lot of heat, needing an intercooler to cool the air, which results in denser air entering the cylinder.

Cheers
Tony
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:00 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by MelGoddard View Post
Never heard of "Toptiergas" in Ontario.
So What's so special about it?
See the link above. Search for your local fuel brand on that site.

It came about some years back when specific engines were seeing high levels of deposits on intake valves. VW was one, Honda was another. Eventually 8 (iirc) manufacturers combined, and came up with standards for effectiveness of deposit control additives, focusing on intake valves, outside the ASTM and other fuel standards. But deposit control is all it addresses. And if you have direct injection, the detergents help the injectors but not the valves. One problem is that some have promoted Top Tier as a general quality standard, when it is no such thing.

A fuel distributor has to decide if they want to play, and go all in; they can't just do it on some fuel blends. The best fuel I can get is Chevron. Up to 94 AKI, and some blends with no ethanol. But that breaks the Top Tier rules about requiring ethanol, and Chevron (BC), a separate company from other Chevron companies, puts Techron in every level of their fuel, but they put more in the mid grade and even more in the premium, and that violates Tip Tier rules about the same additive level in every grade. So in BC, I can buy a better fuel by not going with a Tip Tier brand, if I choose the premium at Chevron.

It isn't simple, unfortunately.

But the biggest consumer issues remain water in fuel, and overdosing with ethanol, IMO. So Top,Tier isn't bad, but it can provide a false sense of security.

Jeff
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:12 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Isuzusweet View Post
Isn't that exactly what I stated??

"Turbo's do create a lot more heat inside an engine and engine bay, which is the reason manufacturers use intercoolers to cool intake air."

as a result of the intake air being compressed through a turbo and picking up a lot of heat, needing an intercooler to cool the air, which results in denser air entering the cylinder.

Cheers
Tony
Not quite. The intercooler (or more correctly the aftercooler, since intercoolers are often referring to the coolers after the first stage of compression and before the second stage, and these engines only have a single stage) cools the charge air, but the cooler is under the hood itself, so it doesn't reduce temperatures in the engine bay, it just moves the heat around. And it isn't there to reduce temperatures of the charge air for engine longevity or reliability issues, but rather for performance issues. You want a denser charge to get more hp, and one could argue that increased hp is contrary to better engine life, which seemed to be the theme under discussion.

Jeff
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:48 PM   #32
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Not quite. but the cooler is under the hood itself, so it doesn't reduce temperatures in the engine bay, it just moves the heat around. And it isn't there to reduce temperatures of the charge air for engine longevity or reliability issues, but rather for performance issues.

Jeff
No where in any of my posts did I infer or state that intercoolers cool engine bays! Nor infer or state that an intercooler lowers intake air temperatures for engine longevity or reliability. I have no idea why you interpreted that from my posts??

I merely stated that turbo's are hot, and when air is compressed by a hot turbo (which is driven by hot exhaust gases) the air heats up which reduces its density. Thusly manufacturers use intercoolers to reduce intake air temperatures to increase intake air density.

Again, no reduction of engine bay temps or reliability or longevity was even mentioned.

Cheers
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:41 PM   #33
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No where in any of my posts did I infer or state that intercoolers cool engine bays! Nor infer or state that an intercooler lowers intake air temperatures for engine longevity or reliability. I have no idea why you interpreted that from my posts??

I merely stated that turbo's are hot, and when air is compressed by a hot turbo (which is driven by hot exhaust gases) the air heats up which reduces its density. Thusly manufacturers use intercoolers to reduce intake air temperatures to increase intake air density.

Again, no reduction of engine bay temps or reliability or longevity was even mentioned.

Cheers
Tony
Sorry for the confusion, I read this:

"Turbo's do create a lot more heat inside an engine and engine bay, which is the reason manufacturers use intercoolers to cool intake air. "

The thread has been about potential service/durability/reliability issues with a specific DI engine, and you brought up heat from turbochargers, so it sounded like you were saying heat is part of the problem, or a causal factor. Apologies if that wasn't a correct assumption.

I would argue that heat isn't the problem, but rather often the solution.

On a direct injection engine, deposits on the back of the intake valves aren't from the fuel, but more likely crankcase fumes with oil. The use of oil separators instead of PVC systems is related on some models. A typical failure starts with short trips that don't burn off the natural condensation in the crankcase. The long term solution is to get it hot. Regularly. As it was designed for. That is what burns off the deposits. These engines were designed to run hotter than many are used to. Some see these higher than traditional engine temperatures as a problem. They try to add additional cooling. Making it worse.

Interesting that some saying they haven't had any issues with their Ecoboosts also mention working them hard pulling large trailers. Best strategy going.

Related: I ran 24,000 km oil change intervals on my last twin turbo 3.0 litre six cylinder (not an Ecoboost). That was more frequent than the vehicle computer called for, up to 28,000 km. Oil sampling results were fine. But I didn't let it idle to warm up, I made sure it got good and hot regularly, I used the available revs once it was warm. And after 100,000 km, it still didn't need any top up oil between changes, suggesting it was holding up pretty well. The current vehicle (3.0 litre non turbo, very similar design) isn't using any oil between changes after 150,000 km. The biggest problem with these modern engines, IMO, is not working them. The designers didn't expect the number of 5 km trips some owners subject their modern high performance engines to. And these are high performance engines. It is going to continue. The next version of the Ecoboost 3.5 litre is reported to have 600 hp in the Ford GT.

Jeff


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Old 04-02-2017, 09:55 PM   #34
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The second generation 3.5 Ecoboost on the 2017 F150 has both direct and port injection. Also has twin turbos.
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:46 PM   #35
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See the link above. Search for your local fuel brand on that site.

It came about some years back when specific engines were seeing high levels of deposits on intake valves. VW was one, Honda was another. Eventually 8 (iirc) manufacturers combined, and came up with standards for effectiveness of deposit control additives, focusing on intake valves, outside the ASTM and other fuel standards. But deposit control is all it addresses. And if you have direct injection, the detergents help the injectors but not the valves. One problem is that some have promoted Top Tier as a general quality standard, when it is no such thing.

A fuel distributor has to decide if they want to play, and go all in; they can't just do it on some fuel blends. The best fuel I can get is Chevron. Up to 94 AKI, and some blends with no ethanol. But that breaks the Top Tier rules about requiring ethanol, and Chevron (BC), a separate company from other Chevron companies, puts Techron in every level of their fuel, but they put more in the mid grade and even more in the premium, and that violates Tip Tier rules about the same additive level in every grade. So in BC, I can buy a better fuel by not going with a Tip Tier brand, if I choose the premium at Chevron.

It isn't simple, unfortunately.

But the biggest consumer issues remain water in fuel, and overdosing with ethanol, IMO. So Top,Tier isn't bad, but it can provide a false sense of security.

Jeff
I did check the link, and found that Petro Canada, (An American owned Company), and Esso,(same) do use the Top Tier.

There are both outlets in Blenheim, and their gas prices are typically .05 cents higher than Pioneer up the street.
Pioneer is not listed, so I guess you get what you pay for.

Thanx for the info, I just learned something new.
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:43 PM   #36
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I don't own a ecoboost but have a friend that runs a heavy truck shop that uses one for everything around there shop. It's got almost 200,000 hard miles and is not serviced regular and the thing has never gave a minutes trouble. I believe there solid engines.
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Old 04-03-2017, 10:15 PM   #37
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100k on my '13 Ecoboost, about 30k+ towing the Airstream. Engine strong, no rough idle, cold start issues, etc.

I do try to run ethanol free when possible and usually premium when towing.

I have lots of complaints about the MySync system, brake issues and crappy Ford dealers that I've used but am very satisfied with the engine.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:58 AM   #38
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100k on my '13 Ecoboost, about 30k+ towing the Airstream. Engine strong, no rough idle, cold start issues, etc.

I do try to run ethanol free when possible and usually premium when towing.

I have lots of complaints about the MySync system, brake issues and crappy Ford dealers that I've used but am very satisfied with the engine.
MySync on my 2012 is a pain, but as long as Bluetooth works, and music plays, I am fine. I use the built in navigation when traveling, but I also use the Garman; sometimes they disagree on routs, but they both seem to get us A to B.
I have always used Ford service; found the dealers service depts. in MT and in CA were more attentive then the one I use here in TX. I have to watch what they are doing here. I wish getting ethanol free fuel was easier to find. As for cold starting, I have not had any issues down to
-25 degrees last 4 years in MT...I did have my power running boards freeze up this past January while visiting our place in Lincoln, so had to figure out how to turn that switch off to disable; but other than that, I agree...the engine has had no problems for the 110K miles we've put on it, other than a plug foul out at around 90K or so. That's why I am leaning toward a new one!
Hey "HeadWest", I must be driving right by your place on our way from TX to Lincoln! :-)
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