Manufacturer's Tow Ratings

[Gene]

I wonder how those cars that towed trailers 30-50 years ago would be tow rated today? Same for trucks of long ago? Of course those trailers, for the most part weighed a lot less.

I think it can be argued many of today's cars may be better suited to tow most Airstreams than the cars and truck's of yesteryear—I don't believe there would be a simple answer, but if they are fairly heavy and have rear drive or AWD, they may be much better than the standards of long ago, though may not so good for today's standards.

I don't think we have any hard evidence about what went on 30-50 years ago except for anecdotal statements. Thus, comparisons have to be looked at skeptically.

Gene

[Lance M]

This is an interesting conversation.
My ol' 1970 Chevy C20 Custom Camper with a 350/350 and 4.10 gears has a GCW of #10,250 The truck weighs a tad less than #5,000 full of fuel without a driver. So it is rated, in the best case scenario, for towing a #5,000 trailer. This is for a truck with 249 HP 304 lb/ft TQ and 4 wheel drum brakes. Interesting indeed.
scan 1970.pdf

[Alphonse]

Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica

[Tomzstream]

Originally Posted by Bruce B

I have a customer who can not go more than 10,000 miles on a set of brake rotors and pads no matter what we do, I followed her in traffic once and saw why! I stopped counting after 100 applications of the brake (as indicated by the brake lights) and this was in just a couple of miles. I didn't touch my brakes more than twice in the same stretch following her. If she were towing anything I would suggest a tank!

Bruce

LOL! Yes, I taught my daughter to drive and the best advice I gave her was if you want your brakes to last, "Drive like you have no brakes". Think about it. Look ahead, anticipate your stops and most of all don't let your foot go directly from the accelerator to the brake. This applies even more so to trailering.

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by zigzagguzzi

I found the article informative and accurate. What article did you read!? Most half ton trucks on the road are the basic models or four wheel drive with low tow ratings. Many of these owners tow like they have a three quarter ton or larger. No WD, etc,. Jim

Title: "... Towing more than 5k pounds with a half-ton pickup is against the law." At best an ignorant generalization that is invalidated by a huge number of half ton pickups such as my own, which has a tow rating of 9500 lb.

The quote from Bruce Smith, ostensibly some sort of expert, "Half-ton pickups have a 5,000-pound towing capacity, period," he says. "The weight of the towed equipment alone usually exceeds that limit." As stated, this is a falsehood. It would be accurate to say "Half-ton pickups require a weight-distribution hitch to tow more than 5000 pounds" but what he said is patently false as a general statement.

It's not until the 7th paragraph that they grudgingly admit that using a weight-distribution hitch allows the truck to "take on extra weight" but at no point do they specifically state that a properly-equipped half-ton truck may be capable of safely and legally towing much more than 5000 lb.

Lest you think I have a dog in this fight, I tow an Argosy with a GVWR of 5300 lb with a half-ton pickup using a weight-distribution hitch, and the trailer never weighs close to gross, so the author's poor writing is an offense to me just because of its dishonesty, not because I think he's accusing me of "breaking the law."

[TinTin]

All these numbers being thrown around. Might as well add another. My half ton is tow-rated for 11,200 pounds. The 2014 GMC half ton trucks vary from 5800 to 11,500 lbs. tow rating, and from 1751 to 2108 lbs. payload. Pretty variable.

[Denis4x4]

Originally Posted by Bruce B

Wow!
I am sorry you feel as though you are being picked on.
My intent was to simply point out that the United States is the place a woman successfully sued McDonalds because her coffee was too hot!
I have a lot of respect for the work Andy does at Can-Am.
Would I tow with a Chrysler 300? No, but I have a lifetime of experience repairing cars that colors my opinion. If you want to, feel free. I have seen trucks towing Airstreams that were so poorly set up that I am certain they were more dangerous than anything coming out of Andy's shop.
Maybe I will begin collecting pictures of dangerous looking tow set ups. I have seen a few!
No bad feelings I hope.
Bruce

In no way do I feel picked on. FYI, the damages that were awarded to the gal by McDonalds over the hot coffee episode were greatly reduced on appeal. When I bought our 2006 Safari 25 FB, I towed it with a Ford F-250 with a V-10. Traded for an '06 GMC 2500HD. Traded again for a Silverado 2500HD in 2012. Now towing the same AS with a 2013 Grand Cherokee with the factory tow rating of 7200 pounds.

Based on my experience, there are alternatives to trucks. Now if you have kids or want to take extra toys, then a truck is great. Again, nobody is bashing trucks, just pointing out that there are alternative tow vehicles.

Before ramp trucks came into vogue, drag racers used Chrysler wagons to tow match racers and funny cars in the mid seventies.

[J. Morgan]

For me, In general, to the greatest extent, the safety of any vehicle with regard to towing a trailer with a light to moderate tongue weight, (I.e.Airstreams), is largely dependent on the vehicles ability to stop well on demand.

It doesn't take long to figure out if a vehicle is ill handling, and to make a fix and/or replace a tow vehicle.

[J. Morgan]

For those who think modern cars are too light to tow a moderately substantial trailer....... Well, by all accounts, modern cars are BRICKS.

http://whatiscurbweight.com/vehicle-...urb_weight.htm

[truckasaurus]

I was looking forward to the article but by the end felt any message was all muddled up. I think every reader knew before they started reading that a badly set up combo is not the best and that manufacturer tow ratings are no substitute for applying common sense and paying attention to tongue weight and correct hitching. What the article did imply was that a truck is not a modern tow vehicle and that a Volvo is better. I'll concede that if you are OK with ignoring manufacturer published limits for tow rating, hitch rating and in some case trailer frontal area and altering the vehicle a bit you can end up with a stable set up that will deal with the majority of scenarios but it's clear that many RVers don't want all these limitations or worries. I mean if I'm dropping say the best part of $100K on kit to go on vacation I don't want to have to worry about putting something in the trunk in case I ruin my dialled in set up, or driving so slowly so it doesn't boil over or melt the brakes. I know that's sounds harsh and I'm not so pro truck that I can't see how for example the big Merc R class looks like a great TV but the sedans and big new trailers just aren't for me.

If Andy's point was that going over the numbers you can find a greyish area and if it all works well that's one thing; but I got a feeling that he was suggesting that the numbers may as well be ignored in favour of low centre of gravity, IRS and low profile tires.

I guess I was expecting to read about actual tow rating information and maybe see some neat trailer TV combos. What I got was a on opinion regarding auto manufacturers risk versus reward motives to sell high profit vehicles from an RV dealer presumably generally motivated to sell bigger high profit trailers. I completely get that from a business perspective once you've established a niche for yourself as a set up guru you should play to your strengths for maximum benefit and I am interested in using one of my vehicles (Jeep Unlimited) as a small TV for a smaller trailer one day but I won't be ignoring all the manufacturer warnings to get there.

I'm pretty sure a decision making profile could be whipped up to categories attitudes to this subject and some of my branches would be

"am I within manufacturer ratings or very close> YES/ NO"
"can my TV tow my trailer(s) without WD down the road a few miles if the need be > YES/ NO"
"Can I accelerate to get out of trouble even it involves a hill? > YES/ NO"
"does my desire to use my TV as my only vehicle override all else? > YES/ NO"
"does my desire to save fuel override all else? >YES/NO"
"do I think that what works on another continent with all the variables means it will always work here? YES/ NO"
"do I think my TV brakes will make up for any drum brake fade on the trailer? YES/ NO"
"do I believe what was good in 1950 works in todays world? >YES/ NO"
"will I ever want/ need 4x4 or AWD? YES/ NO"
"would my wife ever drive a minivan? YES/No just kidding with this one, it's a NO but I threw it in to illustrate how emotion affects our decision here"

As I write this I realize I should probably just hit delete and/ or unsubscribe and move along but I really am interested in tow ratings and will read the next article on SAE standards. I hope against all odds that it's less anecdotal scaremongering and more educational.

[GCinSC2]

To All,

Been lurking on this one and reading with interest all of the pros and cons. I accidentally stepped into my trailer and TV combo.

The only additional comment I have for Williams nicely written checklist has to do with stopping power. Acceleration is wonderful but braking is pretty darn critical.

Just a question, William asked can your TV brakes make up for brake fade? (Repeated heating eg: going down a long grade and the brakes gradually overheat and fade) I offer one additional self test.

Try stopping w/o your trailer brakes. Make sure you're in an area that safely allows it and by all means don't do it if it goes against your better judgement. Why try it? Well, one day the brakes might not work and to me is sorta like what we used to do on the first big snowfall back in OH, put it in a parking lot and get the feel back in you head about what a spinning car feels like and reacquaint yourself with the feeling and actions. IF I understand our braking systems all of us rely on wiring to send the signal to the trailer for braking. I've read enough to know that drum brakes require adjustment and the electrical elements of the system have maintenance requirements.

I had to drive home one day from a campout w/o my brakes due to an ActiBrake failure, no way to fix so I used EXTRA space cushioning while driving and yes, I could absolutely feel the extra braking effort required on my trucks big brakes. Not the way to travel.

Safe travels to all.

Gary

[Tomzstream]

Raise your hand if you ever had an umbilical failure (human error or mechanical). IT HAPPENS. Drove over 100 miles once with no brakes. A real good case in point.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by truckasaurus

I was looking forward to the article but by the end felt any message was all muddled up. I think every reader knew before they started reading that a badly set up combo is not the best and that manufacturer tow ratings are no substitute for applying common sense and paying attention to tongue weight and correct hitching. What the article did imply was that a truck is not a modern tow vehicle and that a Volvo is better. I'll concede that if you are OK with ignoring manufacturer published limits for tow rating, hitch rating and in some case trailer frontal area and altering the vehicle a bit you can end up with a stable set up that will deal with the majority of scenarios but it's clear that many RVers don't want all these limitations or worries. I mean if I'm dropping say the best part of $100K on kit to go on vacation I don't want to have to worry about putting something in the trunk in case I ruin my dialled in set up, or driving so slowly so it doesn't boil over or melt the brakes. I know that's sounds harsh and I'm not so pro truck that I can't see how for example the big Merc R class looks like a great TV but the sedans and big new trailers just aren't for me.

If Andy's point was that going over the numbers you can find a greyish area and if it all works well that's one thing; but I got a feeling that he was suggesting that the numbers may as well be ignored in favour of low centre of gravity, IRS and low profile tires.

I guess I was expecting to read about actual tow rating information and maybe see some neat trailer TV combos. What I got was a on opinion regarding auto manufacturers risk versus reward motives to sell high profit vehicles from an RV dealer presumably generally motivated to sell bigger high profit trailers. I completely get that from a business perspective once you've established a niche for yourself as a set up guru you should play to your strengths for maximum benefit and I am interested in using one of my vehicles (Jeep Unlimited) as a small TV for a smaller trailer one day but I won't be ignoring all the manufacturer warnings to get there.

I'm pretty sure a decision making profile could be whipped up to categories attitudes to this subject and some of my branches would be

"am I within manufacturer ratings or very close> YES/ NO"
"can my TV tow my trailer(s) without WD down the road a few miles if the need be > YES/ NO"
"Can I accelerate to get out of trouble even it involves a hill? > YES/ NO"
"does my desire to use my TV as my only vehicle override all else? > YES/ NO"
"does my desire to save fuel override all else? >YES/NO"
"do I think that what works on another continent with all the variables means it will always work here? YES/ NO"
"do I think my TV brakes will make up for any drum brake fade on the trailer? YES/ NO"
"do I believe what was good in 1950 works in todays world? >YES/ NO"
"will I ever want/ need 4x4 or AWD? YES/ NO"
"would my wife ever drive a minivan? YES/No just kidding with this one, it's a NO but I threw it in to illustrate how emotion affects our decision here"

As I write this I realize I should probably just hit delete and/ or unsubscribe and move along but I really am interested in tow ratings and will read the next article on SAE standards. I hope against all odds that it's less anecdotal scaremongering and more educational.

I think a beefed up underrated TV is just not worth it.

If you are towing "heavy", you need a heavy duty truck as a beefed up 300/Jetta just does not have the payload. If you are not towing "heavy", then there are much better alternatives. For example, you can get a Jeep GC or VW Touareg. They are car based SUVs, ride well, handle well, get good fuel economy (even better than 300) and can be used as daily drivers, do not require any after market modifications (no trip to Canada, or spending weeks to set a WDH), and most importantly are both rated to tow > 7000# -- This provide you with peace of mind, in a society where McDonald gets sued for serving hot coffee.

[J. Morgan]

On Friday my wife and I counted over 100 Rvs in the 200 mile stretch between Las Cruces NM and Benson, AZ.

These 100 ranged all aspects from the very small to the very large. Big trailers with little tow vehicles and little trailers with big tow vehicles.

None of these posed a significant delay through the hills and mountains, none of these were being blown all over the road, and none of them were in the ditch.

Everyone likes their own brand don't you know!

My brand is between big and small, my 1/2 ton Silverado does a fine job with my 6.500 lb Airstream.

It used to be that smallish cars were light, not so much anymore. A Chevy Camaro and a Dodge Challenger outweigh my 55 Lincoln.

A car with a little mass and some good bigger rubber on the ground CAN be safe if made safe.

[Tomzstream]

The bit about the Volvo cracks me up. We took Euro delivery of a 2001 V70 XC in Germany. There were rumors going around at the time that they were going to ban them from the autobahn because of the poor stopping distance. We got ours and hauled ass anyway, but yes it was less than desirable. It was especially noticeable when we would be cruising at 90 or so MPH and have to pull over for an Audi or Porsche going 100+ and invariably have to hit the brakes hard for the trucks in the right lane which are regulated at much lower speeds.

I recently saw a ratings of popular SUVs and even now the XC70 was down rated on brakes. I know some folks here do use as a TV, but not me. Its a great car. But not suitable for towing IMO.

I think the more interesting possibility will be the upcoming redesigned XC90, but some will probably have an issue with the 4 Cyl eDrive engines... I personally think they will kick ass. But as stated above, I worry more about the Stopping than the going.

[Gene]

Modern cars and trucks are very, very different than the vehicles of the past. There's been some discussion of brakes. Before the '80's, few, if any, American vehicles had disc brakes. Disc brakes stop better and don't fade nearly as quickly as drum brakes. Some didn't have power assisted brakes which made it even harder to stop. So, a modern car may be a better tow vehicle than an old truck and a modern truck may be better than a modern car, but you have to match the vehicle to the trailer and make whatever modifications are necessary—that can be hard work to figure out and to do. Blanket statements, however, ignore the specifics of each situation.

Some people mention size—the tow vehicle should be the same or bigger size than the trailer. The 18 wheel tractor trailers aren't like that, so maybe this size thing isn't all that important. Again, each situation is different and many vehicles can be adapted to a specific towing situations.

And the McDonald's coffee case keeps coming up on many threads. Dennis is correct—the award was reduced significantly on appeal. Also, the coffee wasn't hot, it was scalding. Everyone expects coffee to be hot, but scalding? This was one of many lawsuits against McDonalds for scalding coffee that caused serious burns. I think they lost them all.

Gene

[Bruce B]

As I packed up our campsite at Ft De Soto this morning on our way to the Keys I wondered what someone pulling an Airstream with a Jetta does with their Porta Tank......
Just be safe everybody!
Bruce


Sent from my SM-N900V using Airstream Forums mobile app

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by Bruce B

As I packed up our campsite at Ft De Soto this morning on our way to the Keys I wondered what someone pulling an Airstream with a Jetta does with their Porta Tank......
Just be safe everybody!
Bruce


Sent from my SM-N900V using Airstream Forums mobile app

Another unique reason for needing a truck. We do have a Jetta at home, tow with a Ram 1500, but don't have a need for a Porta Tank.

It looks to me like the trend is toward smaller, well-matched tow vehicles rather than overkill. Can-Am is leading this with hundreds (maybe more) of successful combinations. And few if any reports of the dangers and disasters we keep being warned about from pretty much the same handful of protesters.

We tow with a light duty truck but are definitely looking to a more useful, better handling and braking SUV to replace it. Perhaps we need more insurance to cover the less likely event we'll get in trouble with the SUV?

[MrUKToad]

I've just caught up with this thread again and I see it's gone down the "illegal" and "litigious" blind alleys again.

Neither of those arguments advances the view that manufacturers' tow ratings are realistic and have been derived through proper engineering methodologies because neither has ever been backed with any real evidence. Can anyone quote a case of someone being sued for exceeding a tow rating? Are there any actual State or Provincial Laws that specifically mention tow ratings? The answer in both cases is no and the reason is that the tow rating gives no real indication as to a vehicle's actual ability to tow.

There are plenty of people out there successfully towing with vehicles that nominally are "underrated", and that is the real evidence that tow ratings don't count for much. The combinations are not illegal or dangerous and a certain Canadian business has managed quite well over the past forty years on the back of this success. Yes, they're in it to make money, but if it were some shady operation out to fleece unsuspecting newbies then don't you think they'd have been found out by now?

I'm always a bit disappointed that so many of my fellow Airstreamers feel unable to open their minds sufficiently to accept not only an alternate view on towing, but also to accept the evidence that very often is sitting right in front of them. No one is asking them to ditch their trucks but we are asking that you don't keep telling us that it can't be done when it patently can!

By the way, I'm looking forward to towing for the forth season with my underrated minivan and hoping to see some other hopelessly deluded Airstreamers with similarly underrated TVs

[Chuck]

I have another piece of "ridiculous" to add to the fray, just for fun.

You might think its ridiculous to tow an 8000lb trailer with a vehicle that is rated to tow 3500.
You might also think its ridiculous that they rate them this low, when we've seen said vehicles do it with aplomb.

How 'bout this: My very peppy, zoom-zoomy mid size sedan has a tow rating of "0". Zip. Nada.
It seems that its manufacturer (Mazda) has taken AndyT's advise to car makers, and says "just don't do it".
Now, I'm not saying that I should be able to tow a camper with this car, but a little jet-ski, or one of those little utility carts for hauling a few pounds of junk to the dump...drag a little dinghy up to the lake? Seriously? nothing???
{shrug}.
I don't think you can take this number any more seriously than any of the other "not really tested" vehicles. If this thing is so delicate that it can't handle a little utility trailer, it is too delicate to withstand the rigors of daily-driving while carrying only people inside it.
But that number isn't saying "it can't do it". What it says is "we (Mazda) don't want to be involved."