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Old 02-24-2014, 07:28 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
"many of them" and "facts" arent stats.

In order to settle this (and we won't because real data does not exist) one would need a collection of statistically significant samples carline by carline, with comparable groupings of towing mileages, of each carline. There would have to be equal groupings of those vehicles who exclusively tow within mfr limits and those who exceed mfr limits...by equally graduated amounts. I know of nowhere in the industry where this kind of data has been collected.

Anything less than that kind of empirical data is nothing more than cannon fodder. However, some of us live in that world (both inside knowledge of engineering and marketing practices and customer interface) and have experiences over decades which can offer educated opinions. But even that has no statistical absolute validity.
I didn't argue for a specific "statistic." I argued we have facts, and we do. CanAm could cite large numbers of sedans and minivans and SUVs they have set up, and that information is factual. They could talk about hundreds of these setups with hundreds of thousands of miles of towing. Not to form an MTBF statistic, or a model by model comparison, but to say that in their experience these setups DO TOW BIG AIRSTREAMS with no abnormal amount of failure.

The argument has never been about a statistical advantage of this over that. It has been people insisting that these sedans "can't tow" or "will fail" or "will create lawsuits" or "will kill people." The data we have may be small, but it is not insignificant.

The argument is all about documentation, not the actual performance. We don't tow on paper, we tow on the road.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:01 PM   #114
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I understand, mstephens, your position clearly. I have, in over 30 years, come May, seen and spoken to many customers who have sustained damage due to overloading. Some by towing and some by piling on the vehicle. sometimes it manifests itself by catastrophic component failure and sometimes by an unexpected shortened life of the overall vehicle system.
Although my observations, over the years, are not document-able by stats either (I only see the failed stuff...no one calls the Service Rep just to say "I've been overloading my vehicle for 100,000 miles and all is OK) they are real and relatively common.

The other, more human, characteristic thing I have noted is that a person who knowingly overloads their vehicle won't discuss their disbelief in specs after a failure because they realize who is really to blame. It's sort of a weird embarrassment thing....like when someone buys an item because they believe it's high quality, defends it to the hilt, then doesn't tell anybody when they have problems. They don't want to lose "credibility currency".

None of that is quantifiably identifiable here, but I am sure it exists.

BTW, I don't consider this an argument nor an indictment of anyone....merely a discussion of a topic of which I have extensive experience. I know I won't change any detractors from my position, but maybe for my part, I can inform some of those who haven't considered all the angles.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:54 PM   #115
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... Some by towing and some by piling on the vehicle. sometimes it manifests itself by catastrophic component failure and sometimes by an unexpected shortened life of the overall vehicle system.
What do you find tends to fail?

I've noticed another human characteristic, one that probably can't be quantified by statistics: some people are just hard on things. They break stuff.
Like the customer Bruce mentioned, who controls the speed of their vehicle with the brake pedal (instead of the correct way, which is with the throttle). The highest form of this is the guy (or gal) who drives an automatic with their left foot on the brake, and their right on the gas, and each has only 2 positions: fully engaged, or fully dis-engaged.
"piece of crap is on its 3rd tranny--nobody can figure out why"
gee, I think I have an idea...
I used to work at a place that had a fleet of 1-ton trucks carrying 700 tank-bodies (liquid)...overloaded if everything was really topped up, but not by a lot. Anyway, the mechanic there once told me that it was typical for him to replace trannies at 50 or 60k miles. I never had such a problem with my truck; but I didn't drive it like I didn't own it, like most people seemed to.

We have these same discussions on the plow forum. Its almost comical, the similarities. Just change the usernames, and replace the word "trailer" with "snow plow".
"you WILL burn the clutch out in 5 minutes, plowing with that Jeep". -um....no
"I used one of those once {light-weight snow plow made for non-commercial/personal use} it broke after 10 minutes "
-you're lying (most likely), or you're a complete idiot.

I had one of these plows for 8 years. It never "broke". The worst thing that happened to my truck during this time was that it got rustier.
Oh, and this particular truck isn't "supposed" to plow, either. (according to the manufacturer). BUT, when they say "plow," they mean "big, heavy, typically 800lb commercial plow...operated by someone who doesn't own it", not "200 lb home-owner special" Heck, Chrysler probably never even heard of such a thing.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:25 PM   #116
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Hi Chuck,
Yes the biggest factor in premature failure...all the way to the unsafe issues starts and ends with how loose or tight the nut located 3' behind the steering wheel is. Whether it is the choice and spec'ing of product, loading of the product, or operation of the product.

To answer your question of most common failures from overloading; of course it varies by type of vehicle and typical environment of usage but, in no particular order:

For overloading the vehicle with weight:
transmission
short brake life
frame fatigue/cracking
spring/hanger/pocket
axle bearings
rear end issues
once in great awhile...bent axle housings
Shorter than expected engine life
Generally a loose feeling vehicle all over

trailering:

transmission
brake life
rear end issues
shorter than expected engine life


Mind you, most all of my interface is with truck and van customers. However I also call on a lot of sales type accounts who use cars. Trailering is not typically allowed with these accounts, but they do overload trunks and rear compartments with samples, etc.

With these, I typically see alignment issues and tire wear due to not realigning independent suspensions with their typical heavy load. Maybe trannys sometimes, but not often. And short brake life. These instances are not nearly as common as commercial truck overloading.

Also, lest you think this is unique to my brands, it isn't. I frequently visit with my counterparts with most of the other brands and we share the same overloading stories. Also my accounts are pretty free with info about competitive brands.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:27 PM   #117
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I also used to see a lot of overheating, but relative new technologies, like overheat protection pretty much eliminated that. (Loose driver seat nut protection feature)
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:39 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
I understand, mstephens, your position clearly. I have, in over 30 years, come May, seen and spoken to many customers who have sustained damage due to overloading. Some by towing and some by piling on the vehicle. sometimes it manifests itself by catastrophic component failure and sometimes by an unexpected shortened life of the overall vehicle system.
Although my observations, over the years, are not document-able by stats either (I only see the failed stuff...no one calls the Service Rep just to say "I've been overloading my vehicle for 100,000 miles and all is OK) they are real and relatively common.

The other, more human, characteristic thing I have noted is that a person who knowingly overloads their vehicle won't discuss their disbelief in specs after a failure because they realize who is really to blame. It's sort of a weird embarrassment thing....like when someone buys an item because they believe it's high quality, defends it to the hilt, then doesn't tell anybody when they have problems. They don't want to lose "credibility currency".

None of that is quantifiably identifiable here, but I am sure it exists.

BTW, I don't consider this an argument nor an indictment of anyone....merely a discussion of a topic of which I have extensive experience. I know I won't change any detractors from my position, but maybe for my part, I can inform some of those who haven't considered all the angles.
My use of the word "argument" is in the debate sense. not anger sense. e.g. The case for a position.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:39 PM   #119
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That darn steering wheel/seat interface nut is something they've never been able to design-out. Usually throws error code: ID: 10-T (ID10T)

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Old 02-24-2014, 09:47 PM   #120
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That darn steering wheel/seat interface nut is something they've never been able to design-out. Usually throws error code: ID: 10-T (ID10T)

That's good...can I use that one?
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Old 02-25-2014, 06:14 AM   #121
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Google is working on it :Google driverless car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Old 02-25-2014, 06:15 AM   #122
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Feel free! There's plenty of them to go around, thats for sure.
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