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Old 02-24-2014, 10:18 AM   #85
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And this:
"Not surprisingly, tow vehicle develop-ment and testing is extensive. It begins at the component level, in labs and on benches, continues through the subsystem level (chassis, brakes, powertrain) and culminates with complete vehicles from early prototypes through production. "We do a lot of hot-room and cold-room testing," says Chrysler's Cairns. "We have goal temperatures for critical components, so we take thermal data from fully instrumented vehicles in test cells and match that against CFD [computational fluid dynamics]."

Read more: Capability Testing & New SAE Standards - Consumer Feature - Truck Trend Page 3
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:22 AM   #86
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And I have been saying this all along....it is a performance based test so non-technical folks can compare apples to apples on a road test to their preferred travel requirement. Speed....etc. All the existing numbers will still be available (form GM anyway) for a technical specification of a customer's desired vehicle, so they can spec a vehicle to be operated under engineering established durability, reliability and safety parameters.

"SAE J2807 will say, 'Here are your performance requirements to set a GCWR--how fast you can get up a hill, how cool the truck is while doing it, how well the combination handles, etc.,'" says GM's Krouse. "Then the last section says, 'Now that you have validated to this GCWR, here's how to calculate your trailer weight rating from it.'

Read more: Capability Testing & New SAE Standards - Consumer Feature - Truck Trend Page 3
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:44 AM   #87
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As the OP, I find it fascinating how this thread has morphed. I still think that manufacturers ignore the engineering and testing on vehicles other than SUV's and pickups simply because there is no profit motive.

That was the basis for the original thread.
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:46 AM   #88
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In short, there are two questions:
1. Does the TV do the required things to haul the load? Braking, climbing, maneuvering and so on.

2. Does the TV breakdown while doing it?

If the answers are yes and no, is there really much more to it?
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:56 AM   #89
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And number three should be does it do these safely? Jim
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:40 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Denis4x4 View Post
As the OP, I find it fascinating how this thread has morphed. I still think that manufacturers ignore the engineering and testing on vehicles other than SUV's and pickups simply because there is no profit motive.

That was the basis for the original thread.
And directly to your OP, I most respectfully, disagree...and the article, though simplistically and only briefly, indicates the most accurate synopsis of the process.

My personal professional experience and the article are pretty much in alignment.
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Old 02-24-2014, 12:03 PM   #91
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And number three should be does it do these safely? Jim
I think safety is just part of 1 and 2. If you can do all the maneuvers, that implies safety. If you don't break down, that implies safety.

The sensible analysis would be to have a road test for #1 that includes all the various maneuvers and then collect data for #2.

We have a lot of the data right here on this forum. I think SAE has defined a tow test, so why not run the TV through that and see what happens?
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Old 02-24-2014, 01:23 PM   #92
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Times have changed. We are not in the 70's anymore and almost no one uses a sedan as TV. Car companies know this and have softened up the sedans to reduce the cost and increase the profit; they have no incentive to make "beefed up" TV sedans either, as the profit margin on trucks in already great. In my opinion, after market modifications cannot make sedans a viable tow vehicle either. No matter how good Andy is I cannot see how a modified sedan, rated to tow 1000#, can safely 6000#. Most people do a risk vs reward analysis and decide that using a modified sedan (designed to move passengers, with little margin put in by manufacturer) is not worth it as a TV. Customers want peace of mind not possible liability.
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Old 02-24-2014, 01:35 PM   #93
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Times have changed. We are not in the 70's anymore and almost no one uses a sedan as TV. Car companies know this and have softened up the sedans to reduce the cost and increase the profit; they have no incentive to make "beefed up" TV sedans either, as the profit margin on trucks in already great. In my opinion, after market modifications cannot make sedans a viable tow vehicle either. No matter how good Andy is I cannot see how a modified sedan, rated to tow 1000#, can safely 6000#. Most people do a risk vs reward analysis and decide that using a modified sedan (designed to move passengers, with little margin put in by manufacturer) is not worth it as a TV. Customers want peace of mind not possible liability.
So, what's your experience in setting up vehicles and towing with them? In over 40 years of setting up vehicles for towing, Andy must be doing something right.
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Old 02-24-2014, 01:46 PM   #94
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Customers want peace of mind not possible liability.
Sure, but that's a perception...not based on any facts. Its also a perception that cars are flimsy-er today than the 70's; the math says otherwise. They're bigger, heavier, and stronger(hp, torque) today.
But our perception is the opposite.
I see the oft-pictured chevy caprice pulling the airstream, and my brain says "big"...because thats the way I remember that car. I saw one in the parking lot the other day (rare site, these days), and it was dwarfed by the honda pilot parked next to it, and the mini-van (ha- "mini") on the other side of it.
The "mini" weighs 1000lbs more.
Likewise, I see a lot of these modern cross-overs, and they seem very small to me...until I stand right next to one. I think its because they're shaped kind of like the 2000lb hatch-backs of yore, and that shape triggers the "small" button in my brain.
I tow with a full-sized pickup truck, and nobody bats an eyelash at that, but the minivan has 50% more power in 1st gear than the truck. 50 more hp, and only a little less torque overall. The truck has to haul 1000lbs more of itself than the van does, and also has to punch a bigger hole in the air to do it.
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:04 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by rostam View Post
Times have changed. We are not in the 70's anymore and almost no one uses a sedan as TV.
But why not? Do they not use them because they are inferior, or do they not use them because they are not rated to tow. It's like a chicken & the egg thing. Are they not rated to tow because nobody tows with them, or does nobody tow with them because they are not rated to tow? We've all survived the SUV boom and people are getting back to driving normal sized cars. I just think recreational towing isn't even on the manufacturer's radar. They are looking at trucks as utility tow vehicles for landscapers and contractors, and RVs might as well use those as well.

There is no reason a big modern sedan cannot exceed the performance of the old tow vehicles, if the manufacturers expected them to be used that way. If you aren't living in your AS, and don't have a reason to buy a truck and put up with the terrible gas mileage of a big SUV, a sedan or mini-van makes a lot of sense for the still working, weekends only owner.
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:19 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rostam View Post
Times have changed. We are not in the 70's anymore and almost no one uses a sedan as TV. Car companies know this and have softened up the sedans to reduce the cost and increase the profit; they have no incentive to make "beefed up" TV sedans either, as the profit margin on trucks in already great. In my opinion, after market modifications cannot make sedans a viable tow vehicle either. No matter how good Andy is I cannot see how a modified sedan, rated to tow 1000#, can safely 6000#. Most people do a risk vs reward analysis and decide that using a modified sedan (designed to move passengers, with little margin put in by manufacturer) is not worth it as a TV. Customers want peace of mind not possible liability.
The point of the debate, though, was that the 1000lb quoted by the manufacturer as a tow rating had no bearing on what the car was actually capable of towing (safely, legally and all the rest). Sedan manufacturers know they're not competing in a TV market so just put an arbitrary and comfortingly low rating on their products because there's no money to be made by doing otherwise.

Whether or not you consider modern sedans smaller and lighter than their 1970s ancestors, by making some relatively minor modifications Can-Am has been able to show that various modern sedans (C300, Taurus SHO, etc) can tow successfully, regardless of the manufacturers' comfortably low tow rating. There are combinations out there now, towing safely and effectively; does that not demonstrate, at least in the non-truck and large SUV market, that tow ratings are meaningless?
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:21 PM   #97
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The point of the debate, though, was that the 1000lb quoted by the manufacturer as a tow rating had no bearing on what the car was actually capable of towing (safely, legally and all the rest). Sedan manufacturers know they're not competing in a TV market so just put an arbitrary and comfortingly low rating on their products because there's no money to be made by doing otherwise.

Whether or not you consider modern sedans smaller and lighter than their 1970s ancestors, by making some relatively minor modifications Can-Am has been able to show that various modern sedans (C300, Taurus SHO, etc) can tow successfully, regardless of the manufacturers' comfortably low tow rating. There are combinations out there now, towing safely and effectively; does that not demonstrate, at least in the non-truck and large SUV market, that tow ratings are meaningless?
IMO, no.
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:31 PM   #98
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.........but the minivan has 50% more power in 1st gear than the truck. 50 more hp, and only a little less torque overall.
I don't understand what you are referring to here. Are you saying your minivan engine makes more HP than your truck engine? Why refer to first gear?

Torque multiplies as a result of gearing. If you put 100 pounds feet torque into a transmission gear with a 10 to one reduction you now have 1000 pounds feet of torque. Now put that into your differential and multiply by that ratio. That engine torque becomes a big number....That is why different gear ratios make otherwise like vehicles feel so different. HP is HP, gear ratios have no impact on that, this has always been my understanding anyway...

Torque developed by an engine is just a small part of the equation. Torque curve and gearing play a very large part in the picture.

Just curious....
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