Manual Transmission Versus Automatic

[mtjim]

Having lived in Montana for 7 1/2 years and towing a 19' Globetrotter with Ford F-150 4X4 with Auto Transmission during those years I can testify to the increased pucker factor when descending tall mountain passes.

I now own a 31' Sovereign and tow with a 5-Speed F-250 4X4 and have to say that I'm a lot more comfortable on the downslopes.

While an Automatic is to be preferred for normal road towing - it seems to me that a 5-Speed is the way to go for high country camping. Am I all wet or do other have the same view?

[Pahaska]

Originally Posted by mtjim

I now own a 31' Sovereign and tow with a 5-Speed F-250 4X4 and have to say that I'm a lot more comfortable on the downslopes.

While an Automatic is to be preferred for normal road towing - it seems to me that a 5-Speed is the way to go for high country camping. Am I all wet or do other have the same view?

With the automatic downshift in Tow-Haul mode with my Allison, even though I have a diesel, there is no "pucker factor" descending steep grades. My recent 25 Classic is at least as heavy as your 32 and I find that very little braking is required even coming down a series of steep switchbacks.

I actually find that sometimes the Allison gets a little too much in a hurry to downshift on a series of small steep ups and downs near home. I end up cancelling Tow-Haul mode briefly to get out of the lower gear.

[87MH]

Originally Posted by mtjim

While an Automatic is to be preferred for normal road towing - it seems to me that a 5-Speed is the way to go for high country camping. Am I all wet or do other have the same view?

The older I get, the less I am inclined to drive a manual transmission.

I have driven Chevy, Dodge, and Ford one ton's in the recent past, and have found that the auto tranny of all three give adequate engine braking on down slopes (disregard any added benefit of an exhaust brake here).

In the dark ages, when I found myself in the mud, the muck, and the mire, I observed that an automatic transmission would distribute power more evenly (slowly?) when pulling out of a "slippery" situation, having less of a tendency for a "one wheel loss of traction" and the subsequent digging of a hole to the axel.

On the other hand, there is a certain satisfaction of sashaying through the gears, enjoying the throb of the exhaust, and the feel of a warm floor shift knob in your right hand.

If Freud were alive today he would probably savor analyzing FWD Diesel GearHeads - or RV'ers.

My best Tim Allen Arh! - Arh! - Arh! - Arh! - .

[Rodger with a D]

Jim

I believe there are two issues to speak of. ( Got to keep apples with the apples and oranges with the oranges. )

The first is the 250 is a larger platform and that in its self makes a differance in the handling over the smaller 150 as you blase down the hill with anything in tow.

The second is the 4 speed being fazed out in favor of the 5 speed.

If I was told to change only one item at no cost to me on our 115" '77 D150 two wheel drive ( 360 / 12 bolt 3:55's / OEM buckets & etc ) it would be a new style 5 speed over the NP 4 speed, not for an automatic. And I would keep the cast B & M shifter handle ( if it fits ).

Rodger & Gabby
Colo Spgs

[GStephens]

While I'm relatively certain that today's automatic transmissions when coupled to diesel engines are greatly improved, I have ordered manual transmissions in the last three F-350's I've owned because I tired of having to rebuild them every forty thousand miles. Having used nothing but a manual now for so long, I would hesitate somewhat to go back to an automatic. I also really appreciate the control I have over the truck and the load with the manual. I also appreciate the slightly better fuel mileage that manuals provide. Of course, my trucks pull all sorts of loads other than our 31' LIMITED as I go about the business of ranching. Every day, one of the trucks is pulling some type of trailer whether it be an equipment trailer, cattle trailer or hay trailer. I really appreciate the manual transmissions and have gotten long life out of the transmission and clutches. One of my trucks now has over 200,000 miles without a problem.
GStephens

[bryanl]

Interesting you only cite downgrade. There should be little or no difference between auto and manual except for the number of gears and driving habits in that circumstance. The way I see it. downgrade pucker factor is one of speed and not transmission type.

Where the automatic transmission is going to be a big asset in slick or winter conditions is in its better control of torque to the wheels at very very low speed and startup. It takes a lot of skill to provide that kind of control with a manual and clutch. It is much easier to get rolling on ice with an auto than with a manual and much easier to creep with an auto than with a manual.

[mandolindave]

I don't think that I'll being towing my camper in snow and icy conditions.

[mtjim]

Originally Posted by Leipper

Interesting you only cite downgrade. There should be little or no difference between auto and manual except for the number of gears and driving habits in that circumstance. The way I see it. downgrade pucker factor is one of speed and not transmission type.

Where the automatic transmission is going to be a big asset in slick or winter conditions is in its better control of torque to the wheels at very very low speed and startup. It takes a lot of skill to provide that kind of control with a manual and clutch. It is much easier to get rolling on ice with an auto than with a manual and much easier to creep with an auto than with a manual.

Well, I cited downgrade because I had the worst towing experience of my life going west on hwy 14 west of Ranchester, WY in the Big Horn National Forest.

Smoking Brakes and absolutely no engine/transmission drag whatsoever going down hill for what seemed like an eternity. And I was going as slow as I could with foot on brake only. I only talk about what excites my sphincter muscle and that surely did. That experience convinced me that I did not want an automatic transmission ever again for Mountain driving. (now the new Allison Transmissions are different).

As far as getting going on ice and snow - That's why I prefer 4X4 Towing vehicles.

[kposey]

I can see where having a manual transmission for down hill grades would be helpful in slowing down. Having to pull the mountains, I have wished for a manual as well. It's those brakes smoking that makes me pucker!

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by mtjim

Smoking Brakes and absolutely no engine/transmission drag ... And I was going as slow as I could with foot on brake only.

As far as getting going on ice and snow - That's why I prefer 4X4 Towing vehicles.

in those conditions requiring going that slow, the only alternative to an auto is a manual in neutral - and that would need the same braking.

I agree with the 4x4 idea as that option not only gets more wheels involved but also usually includes a low range which can help provide engine braking at very low speed.

steep grades and slick roads don't go with towing no matter what you have to tow with IMHO. I remember one trip where a guy that passed me on the Willamette Pass did a 360+ and ended up nose first in the bank. I watched semi's that passed me north of Klamath Falls swaying all over the road for miles ahead. That was a 400 mile trip at 15 mph or less (mostly) and hindsight says we should have parked for a couple of days.

oh well, now we know. I just hope we can heed the lesson next time we have to get somewhere in those conditions.

[Tarheel]

my 5 speed stick cummings would not slow me down coming off the mountains until I put an exhaust brake on it. It is a lot of piece of mind for me and I don't worry about tranny temps.

[jschelle]

I was towing our camper coming down the mountain at Lassen Peak. It was a steep grade with switchbacks. My brakes started smoking and I pulled over at a turnout to let them cool. An older man in a pickup pulled over to ask if I needed help. He was a retired long haul trucker and left me with this sage advice, "always go down a hill in the same gear it took to go up." I have used that advice to good advantage and not had any problems since, whether on paved mountains roads or gravel forest roads.

I find the discussion of manual transmission versus automatic transmission very interesting. I drive a smaller SUV, a '99' GMC Jimmy. I did not have the option of a manual transmission for that purchase. I have a 1991 Alfa Romeo Spider with a five speed transmission (unfortunately it can't haul my 19' Bambi) and find I have much better control with the manual transmission in difficult driving conditions (mountain roads or snow and ice) than with the automatic. I wish some of the smaller SUV were offered with the manual transmission option.

[dmac]

A manual tranny provides a positive lock between wheels and engine, allowing good compression braking. Most automatics permit slippage, dramatically reducing the effect of compression braking.

However, most vehicles list a higher tow rating when equipped with an automatic. I assume the manual transmission is lighter duty, or perhaps the clutch is a limiting factor.

It does seem like automatics fail too often when used for towing. I'm thinking this is mostly a heat and/or maintenance issue.

I know nothing about diesels or the Allison transmission.

[71_safari]

The thing I like most about a Manual trans for towing is the ability to avoid a lot of the forced downshifting of an automatic trans in rolling hilly terrain, which happens when it senses a falloff in speed accompanied by an increase in throttle pressure. You can't get much past half throttle in an automatic trans without the damn thing either unlocking the torque converter or dropping a gear, whereas you often can make it over a moderate rise with a manual, without having to downshift, because you can apply enough additional throttle to get you over.

In addition, many of the newer six shooters have a closer spread of gears near the top to allow a better match of rpm to load on long uphill grades.

Of course this doesn't apply to diesels which apparently never have to leave overdrive....

[bryanl]

There are a lot of interesting perceptions in this discussion.

A manual tranny provides a positive lock between wheels and engine, allowing good compression braking. Most automatics permit slippage, dramatically reducing the effect of compression braking.

You realize that slipping goes into the torque converter creating heat? This means the energy dissipation is spread over both engine and tranny? In my experience there is negligable difference between tranny types in regards to compression braking if the transmission is used properly, especially with modern transmissions and modern engine plus tranny controllers.

The thing I like most about a Manual trans for towing is the ability to avoid a lot of the forced downshifting of an automatic trans

Then run the gears down, just as you do with the manual! Proper choice of gears for conditions is a necessary skill every driver needs to learn for whatever equipment is being used.

find I have much better control with the manual transmission in difficult driving conditions

this one I'd like to understand because the opposite is actually the case. In difficult driving conditions you have a lot of attention taken off of driving to manipulate gears and you have a lot less control over the application of torque to the wheels.

What you do often get with a manual transmission is more gears. This is necessary because you don't have the torque multiplication you get with a torque converter. The downside of a lot of gears is a lot less control of torque to the wheels. Creative clutch slipping is much more difficult with a manual tranny!

It seems to me that a lot folks are offering opinions using rationalizations that are not well founded. I don't have any problem with a preference one way or another but I would much rather see positive reasons for the preference rather than questionable rationales that trash the unselected choice.

[john hd]

this is my reason for not having a manual transmission.

ever change the clutch in a 4 wheel drive truck? i have and don't plan on doing it again! bench pressing a 4 speed with a transfer case is not my idea of fun every 80,000 miles or so!

a well cared for, properly sized slush box should out last the sheet metal on any tow vehicle!

john

[GStephens]

John, you're likely correct in most situations. However, in the past those of us who did a great deal of heavy duty towing with diesel engines and the diesel's much greater levels of torque could not get much beyond 30 to 40 thousand miles out of our automatic transmissions no matter how well we maintained them while we had no issues at all with the manual transmissions over a span of several hundred thousand miles. I think things have now changed in the past 3-4 years. I think the Allison transmissions in the GM products as well as the Ford transmissions in the super duty trucks will now likely stand up to the additional torque strain of the diesel motors. I just don't know much about the Dodge products.

In the past, it was also NOT true as someone above stated that there was no difference in engine braking between the automatic and the manual. That may have also changed, but in the past I've had white knuckle experiences having to brake going down 8% grades in western Colorado with 8-10 twelve hundred pound horses in the trailer in addition to 100's of pounds of tack and gear. Putting the transmission in low gear did not keep the truck and trailer from gaining excessive and dangerous speeds. Before long, we'd not only be going way too fast, but there were also issues of turning too many RPMs. Going down those same grades with the manual often never required that I brake at all - or that I only needed to brake a little here and there in order to negotiate a particularly sharp corner. Rarely have we ever had an issue regarding excessive RPMs. BIG DIFFERENCE.

In certain situations, I also really appreciate the super low "granny gear" on the manual transmissions though I realize that the automatic is capable of roughly the same gear options. I do think that there is little question that the automatic is more useful in negotiating certain slippery conditions such as mud and snow.

Having argued on behalf of the manual transmissions, I may very well try one of the new automatics when I order my next truck, but I've been very well pleased with the manuals I've had on my last three trucks.
GStephens

[john hd]

gs,

you are correct in your views too! i think 2 of the big three truck makers have made great strides in trannys in the last 4 year.

my last truck with an automatic made it well past 250 k, even with the trouble prone 700R4! i never did a thing to it except change the fluid and filter every 50 k.

before i got my new international at work with an allison in it, the last thing i wanted to do after work or on vacation is sling gears!

john

[GStephens]

I can certainly understand that position. There is little question that an automatic is easier to drive. We have automatics in our two cars and in one half ton pickup. I certainly enjoy driving them when given the opportunity even though I am very used to driving the manuals. Of course, we don't tow anything with any of these vehicles.

I don't think there is a right and wrong transmission. There are so many variables to consider for each individual. Who else will be driving the vehicle? Is it equipped with a gasoline or diesel engine? What differential ratios is coupled to the transmission? Will it ber towing light or heavy loads? What percentage of the time is the vehicle used in towing?

As we both seem to agree, most all of my objections to the automatic have probably been addressed in the newer, stronger automatic transmission designs that are now on the market.

GStephens

PS John, I notice your various posts and want to commend you for the thoughtful and helpful way that you respond to member's questions.

[mtjim]

I did a test in my 1992 Ford F150 with Auto Transmission when it was less than 2 years old.

I was in the mountains and without any load or trailer, I put the transmission in Super Granny Low Four Wheel Drive - no foot on the gas and just let it roll downhill in drive to see how fast it would go. At 40+ miles an hour I decided to stop and end that silly experiment before I tore something up or broke the sound barrier (that being me screaming).

I still wonder to this day how fast it would have gone if I hadn't braked.

I now own a manual transmission Ford that will literally crawl down the mountainside with no brakes. I like that and besides it saves wear and tear on my on seatcovers and underwear.