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Old 02-22-2008, 12:10 PM   #1
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Low sulphur vs ultra-lo sulphur diesel?

My TV is a 2007 F-350, 6.0 power stroke. The engine manual and the sticker on the inside of the gas access door both state that either low or ulsd is acceptable. However the sticker on the diesel pump at the local Wal-Mart states that it is against federal law to use ULSD in anything produced after 2007. Can anyone explain this to me? Am I reading something wrong? Thanks.
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Old 02-22-2008, 12:22 PM   #2
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Hi Scott. I believe the regs dictated that private vehicles produced from Jan 2007 onward were restricted to the ULSD 15ppm standard -- their pollution control equipment could get damaged by higher sulfur fuels. You should not be able to find anything except ULSD in this day and age! I've seen pump tags poorly worded like the ones you report. But your engine will do just fine with ULSD.

Diesel #2 is the normal fuel. Thinner Diesel #1 (operations at 10 below fahrenheit) is sometimes sold as 'Premium' -- an unnecessary expense that I almost never consider. My Duramax is garaged and I have an OEM block heater if it gets that cold -- which it has been doing regularly this winter. You're fine if you stay away from our end of the Mississippi!
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Old 02-22-2008, 12:30 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanoeStream
You should not be able to find anything except ULSD in this day and age! I've seen pump tags poorly worded like the ones you report. But your engine will do just fine with ULSD.
Thanks for the swift reply. I've been using it, waiting for a Federal Marshall to appear and confiscate my truck.
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanoeStream
You should not be able to find anything except ULSD in this day and age! I've seen pump tags poorly worded like the ones you report. But your engine will do just fine with ULSD.
I have found many stations that still have the LSD diesel fuel in their pumps. Especially at the "travel centers". My local Phillips station was still labeled this way so I went in and asked before I bought my first tank of fuel for my '08 I bought in December. The attendant told me that some one had asked earlier in the week so she called corporate and was told that the fuel was indeed the 500 ppm and she should not offer to sell it to anyone with an '07 or '08.

I make sure I always check before I pump just to make sure since I found out that this station had not just got lazy and not changed the labels. Last weekend I stopped at a Petro station and had already swiped my credit card and had the nozzle in my tank when I noticed that the label read 500 ppm so I canceled before I started pumping and went to the Shell station next door and paid a little more for fuel. I don't know how much use would be too much to use in an '08, but the engine cost too much to find out one tank is too much!
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:00 PM   #5
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Mine says ONLY Ultra-Low-Sulpher and I beg to differ as far as what's available. I went to the Can Opener and stopped at three different truck stops attempting to find a ULS pump. All of them had Low-Sulpher and had stickers saying it was illegal to be used in "PASSENGER VEHICLES manufactured in 2007 or 2008"..... Right down the street I'd find a Shell or a BP that had ULS for 20 cents more per gallon. Exxon's were a different story - some had ULS and some LS.

I'm breaking in a new engine and I sure don't want to void my warranty so I'm trying to be careful - and law abiding.

I've found several stations right here in Virginia Beach that are NOT truck stops that have LS, but also several with ULS.

BTW, does anyone know of any Wawa's that sell diesel? I swear I've seen a few, but boy not around here. They were always nice to use when trailering since virtually every one was on a corner or crossed two streets so pulling in and out weren't problems.

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Old 02-22-2008, 03:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
My TV is a 2007 F-350, 6.0 power stroke....
on the ford side usld is required for 2008 powerstrokes, not 07...

the particulate exhaust filter that can be fouled with lsd is NOT on the 07 FORDs...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...now-30023.html


http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...rld-25248.html

so the 6.0 liter series from 2003-2007 can use EITHER lsd or ulsd, legally.

now as to switching backnforth between lsd and ulsd....

many feel this isn't a great idea because of the different additive package,

and the potential for fouling the fuel filter more often doing this...

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foiled and 'mate...

the 07 cummins and 07 isuzumax require ulsd as does the 08 ford...

using just a few gallons of lsd in ANY of the drivetrains with particulate exhaust cleaners, will KILL the exhaust filter.

not the engine.

these advanced particulate exhaust gadgets are somewhat like catalytic converters on gas engines...

and are rendered useless by sulfur, in the same way leaded gas kills a cat converter...

once the particulate exhaust filter is fouled up this affects the engine obd, computer stuff and so on back up to the engine.

a new stock 2-stage particulate exhaust filter/burner is about 2-3,000$ and the engine hs to be cleared of the wrong fuel too...
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Old 02-22-2008, 03:33 PM   #7
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2Air,
Thanks again for your comments. Not much LSD here, lots of ULSD, so mixing them shouldn't be too much of a problem. I appreciate your advice. thanks again.
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Old 02-22-2008, 07:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
My TV is a 2007 F-350, 6.0 power stroke. The engine manual and the sticker on the inside of the gas access door both state that either low or ulsd is acceptable. However the sticker on the diesel pump at the local Wal-Mart states that it is against federal law to use ULSD in anything produced after 2007. Can anyone explain this to me? Am I reading something wrong? Thanks.
Key word is "after" to me that would mean 2008 and up However some of the stickers I have seen say "2007 and later"...sounds like you can go both ways

FWIW I run a 1996 PSD and use an additive, because I don't think that the ULSD has enough lubricant in it. I love it when I can buy B80 because my truck loves that stuff, but it is hard to find along the major highways around here.

Aaron
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Old 02-23-2008, 08:22 PM   #9
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Presently the only diesel available is ULSD. This excludes off road (red dye) diesel for ag purposes. I have found that not all "labels" on diesel pumps conform yet. But like 2air said, for Ford's if its a 6.4L only ULSD is allowed. For the 6.0 & 7.3's you can use either but will find only the ULSD. Speaking of the 7.3's, there is a "cam sensor" recall (1997-2003). Reimbursements for previous cam sensor replacement is available (certain requirements apply). Attachment provides all info.
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File Type: pdf 07S57_Safety_Recall_R07S573.pdf (423.9 KB, 52 views)
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Old 02-23-2008, 08:51 PM   #10
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while cali completed the ulsd conversion in 06...

the rest of the country has until 2010...

many states are ahead of the game,

but some truck stops still have lsd available.

here is a petro company flyer...

http://www.mapllc.com/products/diese...guidelines.pdf

and a more detailed site on the conversion to ulsd...

Clean Diesel Fuel Alliance

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:07 PM   #11
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I use additive with the new fuel and the increase in mileage more than pays for it. BTW home heating oil is not ulsd in the northeast, not that anyone would actually use that. HHO was the same as Diesel in the past, no more. As reported by a friend who delivers them.
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:08 PM   #12
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I have read that the sulfur was a lubricant in the fuel and the lower the percent of sulfur the less lubrication you have. This is very similar to the effect of removing lead from gasoline. Does anyone know if this should be a concern for older diesel engines as they start using the new product?
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:27 PM   #13
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I have read that the sulfur was a lubricant in the fuel...
not exactly

the sulfur is not a lubricant.

the current process to REMOVE the sulfur also reduces the lubricants in diesel.

so the petrol companies ALL claim to add additional lubricants as an offset...

but like wahoo' and over59, i use additional lubricants...

just BE SURE that the lubricants DO NOT contain sulfur...

because this will have the same negative effect on the particulate filter/burner on the new engines, noted above.

i use stanadyne or a small amount of bio-d for lubrication...

stanadyne snake oil works!

cheers
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:05 AM   #14
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In the event that a pump were mislabeled or you pumped some lsd instead of usld by accident...in other words if I had read the label after I had pumped the lsd instead of before, would having the fuel filters changed on a regular basis compensate for an occasional grievance? I was sooo close, I had put the filler hose in the tank and had turned to lift the lever to start the pump when I noticed the label...I was that close.

On my '05 I replaced the fuel filter every 15K to 20K miles. I think that was the recommendation in the manual. I also had the moisture separator drained and oil filters replaced with every oil change. These were done at my local Ford dealer since they were actually cheaper on oil changes than my local express oil change services.
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:26 AM   #15
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I have now had my truck almost a year and on our trip this past fall I swear the Flying J's pumps that said ULSD really didn't have that in 'em.

What I noticed performance wise was when dropping down to 4th gear from 5th and accelerating to go up some short inclines the engine would shudder like it was "flooding out".

The problem went away when I quit buying fuel at the Flying J's.

For us '08 Ford truck owners, the recommended fuel filter service interval is 10k for towing. 20k for normal use. So 15k could work for those that tow part of the time I guess.

I changed mine (there's two fuel filters) at 10k. Plus I change the oil every 5k.
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:17 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnie's Mate
In the event that a pump were mislabeled or you pumped some lsd instead of usld by accident...in other words if I had read the label after I had pumped the lsd instead of before, would having the fuel filters changed on a regular basis compensate for an occasional grievance?
Bad fuel is always bad fuel. ULSD doesn't change this. In your newer 08, your truck has what is called a DPF or diesel particulate filter. It collects soot and other bad byproducts from the exhaust in a grid and will 'burn' them off using a regeneration cycle. Using LSD instead of the ULSD risks clogging the DPF to a point that it can't even unclog itself using a regen, or it will be in regen much longer, leading to excessive smoking, excessive heat that can damage turbos, and most certainly poor fuel economy while running in regen.
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Old 02-26-2008, 08:18 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpandorf

For us '08 Ford truck owners, the recommended fuel filter service interval is 10k for towing. 20k for normal use. So 15k could work for those that tow part of the time I guess.

I changed mine (there's two fuel filters) at 10k. Plus I change the oil every 5k.
I just got my '08 in December so I haven't had it quiet long enough to come up on its first oil change, but it won't be long before I have it changed. With my '05, I changed the oil about every 7K miles and had the oil filters changed every time. I had the fuel filters changed every third time and if I had towed a lot I would have them changed every second time. My service manager always told me that I didn't need to have them changed at the second interval, but I would anyway during the summer when we were towing a lot. When our trips were short (very seldom and usually in the fall and early spring) I would do the every third. My daily commute is about 50 miles round trip and that is all I use my truck for besides towing so I kind of go through a lot of miles quickly so the oil doesn't stay in too long even at 7K-7,500 miles. Right now I'm a little shy of 5,500 miles on my '08 but being the factory oil and I have towed about 2,100 miles already, I'll probably have the oil and filters changed in the next couple of weeks...as soon as life slows down a little.

Westfalia, as I understand what you are describing, the part that is clogged by the sulfur is in the exhaust system and not the fuel system so changing the fuel filters at the prescribed interval isn't going to make a difference. Is this correct? Also, in the new engines, do you ever change the DPF or is it like a catalytic converter and made for the life of the vehicle?
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnie's Mate
Westfalia, as I understand what you are describing, the part that is clogged by the sulfur is in the exhaust system and not the fuel system so changing the fuel filters at the prescribed interval isn't going to make a difference. Is this correct? Also, in the new engines, do you ever change the DPF or is it like a catalytic converter and made for the life of the vehicle?
It's not a replaceable or maintenance item like a fuel filter, but I believe that much like a catalytic converter it will eventually clog or otherwise fail and require replacement. I have yet to check and see what a replacement costs. Also much like a catalytic converter, eventually becomes soon if contamination occurs from over fueling (bad O2 sensor on a gasser), or in this case additional sulfur particulate contamination for a diesel.

So feed the best ULSD into these newer diesel beasts that you can.

And FYI, here is a great Wiki article on DPFs that is worth a read.
Diesel particulate filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:36 AM   #19
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The USEPA diesel emission regulations for 2008 model year vehicles and vehicles manufactured or delivered(not sure which) after May 1st 2007 require the use of new exhaust aftertreatment devices. All the light-duty and medium-duty and heavy-duty diesel engines use a DOC(diesel oxidation cataylsis) and a DPF(diesel particulate filter) The truck manufacture labels the vehicle requiring the use of ULSD. Sulfur will damage the DOC as did lead to the gasoline catalytic converter. Also low ash engine oil MUST BE used, API service classification of CJ4. The DPF must last at least 100,000 miles before cleaning or possible replacement, EPA requirement. Many manufatures state that theirs will run 200,000 before cleaning if the engine is properly service and maintained. The DOC burns the PM and turn it to ash and DPF collects the ash until cleaning. The DOC can if hot enough, burn the PM. If the truck, because of light load operation cannot heat the DOC to the correct temperature the engine will introduce extra fuel to the DOC during a cycle called regeration, different methods are used by the manufactures. The extra fuel burns and heats the DOC so it can turn/burn the PM to ash which is collected in the DPF. Some vehicles have to be parked during regen, and the exhaust will get very hot.
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:37 AM   #20
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thanks tb...

excellent post!

cheers
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