Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-27-2014, 06:47 PM   #1
1 Rivet Member
 
2011 27 FB International
sarasota , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 14
K&N filters ?

I have a 2006 F-250 diesel with 160,000 miles and no mods, it's all stock. My last 250 mile trip on the interstate running @ 70 on the cruise control (without the AS) I got 17.3 mpg. Towing our 27' International from Sarasota, Fl to Destin for the Canopener I got 12.3 mpg at 62-64mph on cruise. Of course the truck has no lack of power for pulling our AS. But, I was thinking of looking into getting a K&N air filter for the truck. Not just the air filter, but the complete cold air induction kit for the diesel. Why? Well, I would like to justify it by getting a real increase in MPG. Having more power for towing would of course be nice, one can never have too much pulling power. And I know the sound from the turbo spinning up would make me feel like a high school kid again. So, I'm asking for any real world experience with a K&N (or similar) air filter install. Any increase in MPG, better engine temps, more power,, improved sound etc. Thanks in advance.
__________________

__________________
airron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 10:21 PM   #2
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,272
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 51
Hi, this has been brought up before and I will say it again; Ford Motor Company has identified failures caused by these type air filters. They allow dirt into the turbos on Diesels and it eats up the vanes. On gas engines, the excess oil kills the Mas Air Flow Sensor. Hold one up to the light and it looks like a screen door. The dirt also passes through the engine. Not to mention the annoying sound you have to listen to all of the time you are driving/riding in this vehicle.
__________________

__________________
Bob

2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent"
[ Small Silver Castle ]
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
ROBERTSUNRUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 11:03 PM   #3
Rivet Master
 
RamblinManGa's Avatar

 
2016 28' Pendleton
Currently Looking...
Scottsdale , Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 840
Images: 2
Hi from AZ. . .I have used K & N filters and/or cold air kits for years, the last 2 on Ford truck gas motors. Approximately 85k on them in total.No failures, no problems, no mass air flow sensors, nada ! Also no diesels, so I can't speak to them. Regards, Craig
__________________
WBCCI 2851,4CU
RamblinManGa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 11:12 PM   #4
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,049
Some good independent test results on the various diesel pickup forums.

Short story is less dirt holding capacity, and more dirt passing through the K&N filter. Pressure drop varied with dirt load, but didn't make any appreciable difference in total pressure drop through the intake. No hp or fuel economy gains to be had with just a filter change from stock, unless you have serious modifications requiring more airflow than the stock turbo requires.

Biggest impact of a CAI is often intake roar. Not turbo noise, but noise from the air passing through the intake itself. Some like it. Others find it intrusive.

Jeff
__________________
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 12:44 AM   #5
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,049
Airron:

Here is one of the studies I recall. It was based on a Duramax, so the base filter was an AC. The link includes the back story, which is worth reading. I think an AC filter is very similar to the OE Ford filter in design and construction, and the Dodge filter for that matter, although I have less experience with the Dodge product. I think there are trends illustrated here that can be extended across different engine and vehicle platforms.

ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report

Jeff
__________________
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 12:01 PM   #6
Rivet Master
 
Ahab's Avatar
 
2008 22' Safari
Oracle , Arizona
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamblinManGa View Post
Hi from AZ. . .I have used K & N filters and/or cold air kits for years, the last 2 on Ford truck gas motors. Approximately 85k on them in total.No failures, no problems, no mass air flow sensors, nada ! Also no diesels, so I can't speak to them. Regards, Craig
This guy is just plain lucky. I have had problems on Fords using the K&N filters. Don't waste your money, there is no benefit
__________________
Ahab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 12:15 PM   #7
Overland Adventurer
 
AtomicNo13's Avatar
 
1991 34' Excella
2009 34' Panamerica
Telluride , Colorado
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,885
My company fleet has more than 8 million miles over 20 Years use. K&n filters have led to zero failures of turbos or Maf sensor failure
Slander and mis info is rampant. People don't understand how these work. I am a fan through proven reliability.... no association other than being a fleet user.
__________________
AtomicNo13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 12:35 PM   #8
Moderator
 
DKB_SATX's Avatar

 
2017 26' Flying Cloud
1976 Argosy 28
Alamo Heights , Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,401
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicNo13 View Post
My company fleet has more than 8 million miles over 20 Years use. K&n filters have led to zero failures of turbos or Maf sensor failure
Slander and mis info is rampant. People don't understand how these work. I am a fan through proven reliability.... no association other than being a fleet user.
You have inadvertently touched on the real problem with K&N filters, though. People don't understand how they work, nor do they maintain them per K&N's instructions, and that can lead to problems.

Too little oil and the filters don't filter well enough. Too much oil on engines with a MAF downstream of the filter can foul the MAF.

Used and maintained properly, I don't think a K&N is an "engine destroyer" but I don't think they have the advantage over stock filtration that they did 30 years ago, and without other mods I don't think you'll see real benefits over a stock filter changed when it should be.

The tests that jcl linked to seem to strongly favor more conventional filters, at least in a diesel application.
__________________
David

Zero Gravitas 2017 Flying Cloud 26U | Il Progetto 1976 Argosy 28 Center Bath | WBCCI# 15566

He has all of the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. Sir Winston Churchill
DKB_SATX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 12:43 PM   #9
Overland Adventurer
 
AtomicNo13's Avatar
 
1991 34' Excella
2009 34' Panamerica
Telluride , Colorado
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,885
I know people over maintain them....
Too much washing. They operate at peak efficiency when dirty.... not plugged.
Secondly too much oiling is not good but proven over and over will not fly out of the gauze and foul the Maf. Too much oil will certainly drip into the tube or blenum then be sucked along into the Airstream (no play on words).
The key is proper application and service. We as a matter of policy NEVER EVER wash ours in fewer than 100000 miles.
__________________
AtomicNo13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 01:47 PM   #10
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,049
I agree that potential MAF problems can be avoided through proper maintenance and not over oiling. That doesn't always happen, unfortunately, but maintained properly you shouldn't have a problem with a MAF due to using an oiled filter. Lots of users have had problems, due to improper oiling.

The issue to me is their filtering, and the marketing claims of hp increases just by changing to an aftermarket filter. If you have a look at the ISO 5011 test I linked above (and there are more reports like this, not just this one) you see that oiled foam filters respond differently as they accumulate dirt. They start out at very low backpressure, but they climb much more quickly than a dry filter as they get clogged. They also pass a lot more dirt during their useful life, and hold far less until they need cleaning or replacing. If you get it full of dirt it may filter more, but the problem is then you have much more backpressure than a paper filter.

If hp is the ultimate goal, one would take the filter out altogether and accept increased engine wear. If maximizing engine life is important, use a good filter. Everyone has to decide where they are on that curve.

How much does that low backpressure matter, which is the way the oiled foam filters are usually marketed? Take a look at the unloaded and loaded backpressure figures in the link. The hp and fuel efficiency gains are not measurable, and are traded off for much more frequent maintenance, or performance degradation if that maintenance isn't spot on.

I do think that oiled foam filters have a very real advantage in some applications. If you are mud bogging or something similar, and need a filter that won't collapse when it gets wet, then a foam filter has definite advantages over a paper filter.
__________________
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 02:03 PM   #11
Overland Adventurer
 
AtomicNo13's Avatar
 
1991 34' Excella
2009 34' Panamerica
Telluride , Colorado
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,885
You mention foam in your post....
You know K&N does not use foam
?
It is made of a natural fiber... the only foam is in the form of a pre filter. A sleeve which fits over the actual filter.
__________________
AtomicNo13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 02:30 PM   #12
3 Rivet Member
 
panheaddale's Avatar
 
1964 26' Overlander
1968 30' Sovereign
Vintage Kin Owner
somewhere , Tennessee
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS View Post
Hi, this has been brought up before and I will say it again; Ford Motor Company has identified failures caused by these type air filters. They allow dirt into the turbos on Diesels and it eats up the vanes. On gas engines, the excess oil kills the Mas Air Flow Sensor. Hold one up to the light and it looks like a screen door. The dirt also passes through the engine. Not to mention the annoying sound you have to listen to all of the time you are driving/riding in this vehicle.
I would like to see actual data from everyone posting opinions about K&N filters.The problem is not the K&N filter itself but the fitment to the stock ford airbox. The filter does not fit the stock airbox with an airtight seal therefore dust can enter the system by actually bypassing the filter. Any aftermarket filter you get needs to have the complete cold air box replaced so that it is all a matched set. Replacing the cold air injection by itself will give you very minimal if any gain in MPG. If you want the gains you would need to change the exhaust to a larger diameter exhaust, for one and in conjunction with the cold air box you will see some slight gain in MPG but even greater gains in power. Exhaust and air box are only a couple of mods to help gain MPG and power. In short DON"T just do a filter replacement and expect much if any gains.
__________________
panheaddale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 02:42 PM   #13
Rivet Master
 
Tom Nugler's Avatar

 
1972 25' Tradewind
Currently Looking...
McHenry County , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,129
Images: 5
The last K&N I used was in a 2 stroke Kawasaki. From what I've seen during the last 40 years in the Import Service business I would never recommend an aftermarket filter for use in a modern engine.
Poor installations, bad design and incorrect maintenance are all verifiable concerns.
A few months back another reason to avoid using these type of filters came from the VW/Audi Group. Regeneration of Diesel Particulate Filters can be impared by the use of aftermarket "cotton bed steel mesh" filters.
Replacing a DPR in a clean diesel can run about a $1000.
Big price to pay for dubious claims of increased power and performance.

Tom
__________________
AirForums # 2806
WBCCI / VAC # 6411
TAC IL-11

Not All Who Wander Are Lost.

Avid supporter of trailing edge technology.
Tom Nugler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 04:18 PM   #14
Rivet Master
 
RickDavis's Avatar

 
1961 24' Tradewind
1969 29' Ambassador
1970 21' Globetrotter
Jamestown , Tennessee
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,781
I seem to recall that the Turbo Diesel Register (Dodge Magazine) did some testing a few years back and the results weren't too encouraging to say the least.
I don't have a link to it but it could probably be found if some one waned to search
__________________

__________________
Rick Davis 1602 K8DOC
61 tradewind, plus a few others
13 Ram 2500 TD
99 Dodge TD 577K miles

RickDavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Catalytic heaters HermitCrab Boondocking 34 12-24-2012 10:16 PM
11,000 BTU A/C in a 20' Airstream Getaways Full-Timing, Winter Living & Workamping 27 09-29-2012 09:29 AM
Newbie Questions... D_Runamuka Full-Timing, Winter Living & Workamping 32 05-16-2012 05:41 PM
GMC/Chevy 6.0 engines Chitown AirStreamers Tow Vehicles 24 07-27-2011 03:54 PM
New plumbing...install filters? aircooled4 Fresh Water Systems 14 05-28-2011 07:16 AM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.