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Old 02-09-2015, 11:35 AM   #15
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I don't know where SR 28 is, but SR 68 is the road between Bullhead City/Laughlin and SR 93 Hoover Dam/Kingman. Davis Dam/Lake Mohave is at the bottom on the Colorado river off on a side road in the Lake Mead Rec area, all 45 mph. The video that I saw had the "test" start within 3 miles of the 55 mph zone increasing to 65 mph leaving Bullhead City heading east.
The "Davis Dam SR 28" has to be some sort of a smoke screen, no locals call it that.
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Old 02-09-2015, 12:35 PM   #16
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I don't know where SR 28 is, but SR 68 is the road between Bullhead City/Laughlin and SR 93 Hoover Dam/Kingman. Davis Dam/Lake Mohave is at the bottom on the Colorado river off on a side road in the Lake Mead Rec area, all 45 mph. The video that I saw had the "test" start within 3 miles of the 55 mph zone increasing to 65 mph leaving Bullhead City heading east.
The "Davis Dam SR 28" has to be some sort of a smoke screen, no locals call it that.
The real question is, in what state is SR 28 the J2807 referring to. After all we have 50 states and how many of them have a SR 28. I believe that is noted in in the J2807 specs.

If nothing else the J2807 gives specs that need to be meet to get the nod.

This would mean that say a 2015 F150 with a 4 cylinder turbo automatic and 3.50 gears would have to perform to that or it wouldn't meet the spec.

If it did how long do you think it would last ? But durability is not what the J2807 is about.

J2807 is about starting ,stopping, turning and braking. It also takes away the arbitrary one up's the manufactures were doing the last few years. Although the ad guys are still messing with the details in their ads.

Bottom line is 'Buyer do your home work.' other wise you may be sold this combo ...
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Old 02-09-2015, 02:07 PM   #17
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The standard tests the pulling/stopping/handling/cooling and is as real world as it gets.

I have noticed that the critics of J2807 on this forum are the same folks that state sedans/minivans are intentionally underrated by manufacturers. Without having a standard, you guys had a point, as you could claim tow rating was set arbitrarily. With a standard in place, you now have to show the sedans/minivans pass the tests (and I will bet you none of them will. Just read the description of Davis Dam grade test). So the best solution is to attack the standard. sigh.
As noted, the standard has several real world limitations. Stopping from more than 20 mph, stopping on a downhill grade, using trailer brakes, and so on. Things that are done in the real world, but not in the standard. So it doesn't seem like the real world to me.

If you want to revisit the car-as-a-suitable-tow-vehicle issue, there is nothing in the standard that says the maximum tow rating must be published. If a manufacturer has two similar vehicles (same engine, cooling, transmission, brakes, etc) but on different models, they can certainly decide to test and thus rate one at 6000 lbs towing (for example) and one at 3500 lbs towing. That would allow them to steer some customers to the more profitable vehicle, for example. What they couldn't do is rate the 6000 lb vehicle at 8000 lbs, arbitrarily (again, just an example)

If one wants to purchase a car to tow with, I guess they could go and tow a trailer up the Davis Dam road, do some acceleration and brake tests with the trailer brakes disabled, make sure their hitch doesn't permanently bend more than 5 degrees, and they would be most of the way there. The yaw sensors may be a touch more difficult to replicate, but most would tow with sway control in any case, something the standard doesn't allow.

A European tow vehicle I owned in 2003 did not meet any SAE towing standard. But that manufacturer tested to an internal test, that used a 12% grade, a figure they published. I found that interesting.

I am not attacking the standard. I was a member of SAE for years, and used a lot of the standards for everything from design work to witness tests. I just recognize the limitations of the standard. You can sigh again now

Jeff
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Old 02-09-2015, 02:26 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by CDONA View Post
I don't know where SR 28 is, but SR 68 is the road between Bullhead City/Laughlin and SR 93 Hoover Dam/Kingman. Davis Dam/Lake Mohave is at the bottom on the Colorado river off on a side road in the Lake Mead Rec area, all 45 mph. The video that I saw had the "test" start within 3 miles of the 55 mph zone increasing to 65 mph leaving Bullhead City heading east.
The "Davis Dam SR 28" has to be some sort of a smoke screen, no locals call it that.
The original poster got the road wrong. Here is the description from the standard:

Quote:
Highway Grade ability Test is accomplished by running Arizona SR 68 (Davis Dam Grade) or simulated dynamic grade in a climatic wind tunnel. The Davis Dam grade is between Bullhead City, Arizona and Golden Valley, Arizona headed east on the east side of the Colorado River. The grade test begins at the intersection of Arizona SR 68 and McCormick Blvd. The posted speed limit changes from 45 mph to 55 mph, and then 65 mph. The test ends at the top of the grade (Union Pass), approximately 18.3 km (11.4 miles) beyond McCormick Blvd.
Note that manufacturers don't actually have to go run that grade. They can do this on a dyno in a wind tunnel as long as they can replicate the temperature. And the test is only at 40 mph anyway (for SRW; for DRW it is at 35 mph). The average grade is around 5%.
For the start on grade test (12%) they similarly don't have to find a 12% grade. It is permitted to use a lesser grade and adjust the figure mathematically for the difference.
Jeff
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Old 02-09-2015, 09:14 PM   #19
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Thanks jcl for your analysis of the standard. Yep, I got the highway number wrong. Sorry, I was working from memory, always a mistake in my case!

This SAE test standard does add significant meaning to the towing capability of a particular vehicle and drive train. Maybe we have seen our temp gages climb toward hot, or felt the transmission slipping due to heat, or panic when the brake pedal is no longer slowing the vehicle and trailer like it should. And all of this happening with a rather sharp curve at the bottom of the hill.

Towing a heavy conventional trailer significantly changes the vehicle dynamics. This standard will help us keep tow vehicles and trailers in better proportions.

David
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:13 AM   #20
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Seems like the big 3 are only using it for 1/2 tons right now too.
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:30 AM   #21
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Seems like those concerned about this issue are those wanting to buy the least capable or marginal tow vehicles. If you need a real truck, buy one. If an SUV or van is what you want, go for it. Jim
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:31 PM   #22
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The origional video
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...st-122926.html
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:51 PM   #23
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Seems like those concerned about this issue are those wanting to buy the least capable or marginal tow vehicles. If you need a real truck, buy one. If an SUV or van is what you want, go for it. Jim

I don't think anyone goes out looking for the 'least capable' or 'marginal' tow vehicle, and it's insulting to phrase it that way. I was looking for an adequate solution for towing a very small trailer. I don't need 7000lbs towing capacity for my 2500lb trailer. When Ford says the Flex can tow 4500lbs, it would be nice if there was some standard they used to determine that is true, and share that information with us.
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Old 02-10-2015, 11:28 PM   #24
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These guys do some pretty interesting video tests of various vehicles towing in some pretty extreme situations. It's not the same road but I imagine it's representative.

Ike Gauntlet reviews, TFLTruck
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:57 PM   #25
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Well, I wanted something that would pull my garbage container down to the street. The sales person suggested this vehicle. I got a good "deal" on it, I think. It might have a little more capability than I need. But I don't even know the trailer is back there.

I think J2807 will help us match the tow vehicle to the job it needs to do.

David
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:03 PM   #26
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The standard doesn't cover trashcans so it's useless in your situation. It's impossible to extrapolate from the other tests. What you really need is a minivan with a Hensley and a reinforced hitch. Make sure to take that to the CAT scale to make sure you don't overload that axel.
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Old 02-12-2015, 11:03 AM   #27
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Do you think those plastic wheels on a steel axle with no bearings will handle a 12 mile grade in 120* heat @ 70 mph??
Sure you have a snow cooled system here in the pix, but will it travel to Bullhead?
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Old 02-12-2015, 07:31 PM   #28
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I think if vehicles had gross combined weight rating based on J2807 easily available I would have purchased a tricycle instead of a diesel pick up.

I don't think my trash trailer would survive the test, even at 40 mph. Needs 16" wheels and LT tires for sure.

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