Is diesel dead?

[open01]

It's.not the diesel engines that need to go, it's the epa. They have cost the manufacturers billions to develop their dpf and egr bolt-ons. Underneath all that stuff is still a powerful and efficient powerplant. The manufacturers were forced.to meet the emissions standards out of context with the prime goals of a motor vehicle. If.you add up the increased fuel consumption, increased exhaust temp during regen, increased wear caused by injecting raw fuel into the engine exhaust during regen it becomes clear. Though this was.originated by the Eurocrats; hence. The Rube Goldberg design- it seems more a means to force the adoption of hybrid technology through legislation.

[Mergatroyd]

Originally Posted by open01

It's.not the diesel engines that need to go, it's the epa. They have cost the manufacturers billions to develop their dpf and egr bolt-ons. Underneath all that stuff is still a powerful and efficient powerplant. The manufacturers were forced.to meet the emissions standards out of context with the prime goals of a motor vehicle. If.you add up the increased fuel consumption, increased exhaust temp during regen, increased wear caused by injecting raw fuel into the engine exhaust during regen it becomes clear. Though this was.originated by the Eurocrats; hence. The Rube Goldberg design- it seems more a means to force the adoption of hybrid technology through legislation.

Agreed! But is the EPA going to win and destroy light diesels in the end?

[cabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by John Geisen

I have the same 2003 Dodge with Cummins Diesel as well and love it! It's been wonderful. I hate the automatic transmission. The S is the weak spot. Now wish I would have purchased it with stick shift. -John

John, we have had Ram Cummins diesels with sticks go out and found out real quick they can cost as much or more to repair. Clutches can't take the torque so power has to be lowered. The newer auto's are far more reliable than your 2003. The Aisin is a beast.

All this talk about diesel makes me laugh...it may stink when it gets on your hands but it's no where near dead.

I don't know of a single rancher or horseman here in Texas that doesn't own and use a diesel pickup. Ever with all the emissions stuff they still out pull and out perform and out last anything else.

Go to one of the other rv forums where they pull big 5th wheels...all are using diesels.

Look at the hotshot drivers on the interstate next time your out there...all using diesels (mostly Ram Cummins by the way)

Heavy Duty 3/4 and 1 ton's are going to always have diesel options. We have several diesels in our company and all have been worked hard and have been very reliable. Diesels like to be worked...they are not happy doing short commutes and as grocery getters. Worked hard and everything ticks along...drove like grandma's buick and your going to the shop. Trust me on this...I am speaking from experience.

Now 1/2 tons probably the diesel options will die.

Why? Because the main reason for the diesel in small trucks is for fuel mileage and to meet cafe ratings...not for pulling power. So if the cost doesn't justify diesel then it will be dropped which I see could happen.

That will never happen with the bigger trucks...they don't have cafe ratings or need to meet fuel mileage requirements. They also are purchased to be pulling machines...and that's where they shine. Worked hard and a diesel will reward you with few problems and many miles.

If you count the number of diesel 3/4 and 1 tons you will see they far out number the gas in this size truck...and don't think the big 3 don't know that...

[GCinSC2]

Originally Posted by cabinetmaker

John, we have had Ram Cummins diesels with sticks go out and found out real quick they can cost as much or more to repair. Clutches can't take the torque so power has to be lowered. ...

I'm in the clutch aftermarket industry, not OEM. I bet the big issue in the power wars allowed development of stronger automatic trans but limited by what the G56 6 speed is rated at. Various aftermarket clutch suppliers have provided clutches capable of destroying the G56 and the cast iron NV5600 6 speed if that's what the customer wants.

Mine is an NV5600 2005.

[jcl]

Family member with a Ram 3500 and Cummins switched from Ford. Loved the engine over his earlier Powerstroke. Then he had multiple transmission failures, so bought a new Ram with the Aisin. Multiple failures. Traded the truck on his third Ram, with the stick. Some clutch issues, he was researching aftermarket clutches when I last rode with him.

There is no magic bullet, IMO.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Mergatroyd

Agreed! But is the EPA going to win and destroy light diesels in the end?

Personally, I am really glad the EPA exists. But leaving them aside, the states are stepping in where the EPA is too lax. With a large enough bloc of state governments the EPA levels won't matter as much. Manufacturers who want to sell in those states will have to meet the stricter rules, just like with CARB, and won't want to spend extra money to develop and certify multiple powertrains.

So, the EPA won't kill off passenger vehicle diesels, but economics will.

[cabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by jcl

Family member with a Ram 3500 and Cummins switched from Ford. Loved the engine over his earlier Powerstroke. Then he had multiple transmission failures, so bought a new Ram with the Aisin. Multiple failures. Traded the truck on his third Ram, with the stick. Some clutch issues, he was researching aftermarket clutches when I last rode with him.

There is no magic bullet, IMO.

Don't doubt what you say but man that's some bad luck...all our diesels are running autos and pulling heavy everyday and we haven't had a single transmission failure or issue. The last transmission issue was a stick in a older dodge cummins. Went through several clutches too. Some of it was probably employee drivers and heavy loads and not shifting / clutching correctly.

Auto transmissions have really improved...my personal Ram Cummins has the Aisin. One reason I went with the 3500 srw...Aisin is only available in the 3500's. But we have had no problems with regular Ram autos or our chevy allisons.

My Aisin trans fluid temp stays right at 168 degrees F. when towing. Most of the 1/2 tons pulling Airstreams are running 200-230 degrees plus and that's not in heavy grade pulling. Which one you think is working harder?

[Alan 117]

Originally Posted by John Geisen

I have the same 2003 Dodge with Cummins Diesel as well and love it! It's been wonderful. I hate the automatic transmission. The S is the weak spot. Now wish I would have purchased it with stick shift. -John

I agree about the transmission. Trouble with an automatic trans in a previous truck convinced me to stick with manual transmissions for towing.
Mine is a five speed stick. Six speed with closer ratios would be nice but I'm not complaining. Only Dodge still makes a manual now for their diesel pickups.

[TinShack]

Originally Posted by Mergatroyd

I think most people would agree that a diesel makes for a better tow vehicle, but has the EPA killed off this option for SUV's and 1/2 ton pickup trucks? I just noticed that Mercedes Benz is no longer offering a diesel, and there are thousands of Ram EcoDiesels sitting in storage lots, unable to be sold, as their fate is being decided. Ford said they were coming out with a diesel F-150 in 2018, but will it really happen? Meanwhile, Europe, where more than half the cars sold are diesels, is on an anti-diesel crusade that may well finish off the diesel market completely.

The diesel vehicle market in California should take a big hit with an new additional $.20/gallon tax on diesel (compared to $.12/gallon for gas) added to the existing $.38/gal tax. This, coupled with the latest smog requirements to have your diesel smogged every 2 years, even for new vehicles (5 year exemption for new gas vehicles), will help put diesel TV's out of reach for more people in California. BTW, California is the second largest state market for diesel vehicles, right behind Texas.

[John Geisen]

Originally Posted by Alan 117

I agree about the transmission. Trouble with an automatic trans in a previous truck convinced me to stick with manual transmissions for towing.
Mine is a five speed stick. Six speed with closer ratios would be nice but I'm not complaining. Only Dodge still makes a manual now for their diesel pickups.

I wonder if that is because the automatic has had and is still thought of as the weak spot? My automatic transmission has been overhauled 3 times and I have less than 100,000 miles with about half of that hauling the Airstream.

[open01]

So you have made the point that the technology that uses inherently cheaper fuel, price inflated by taxation and epa rules; can last 3-5 times longer, and provide more towing power using less fuel and generating less atmospheric while doing so is being made obsolete by our government, bought and paid for by alternative energy interests. When a suitable alternative is presented it will be adopted without the government.picking winners and losers- look at led technology.

[cabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by John Geisen

I wonder if that is because the automatic has had and is still thought of as the weak spot? My automatic transmission has been overhauled 3 times and I have less than 100,000 miles with about half of that hauling the Airstream.

John...that's a lot of transmission trouble. I noted in your earlier post that you have a 2003 dodge. Back then the sticks were not much better.

Things have improved over the 14 years since you bought your truck. Because the output of the diesels increased over the years then transmissions have been improved and beefed up also. We run several late model diesels with automatics...some with over 300,000 miles. All towing heavy trailers hauling cabinets everyday. We have been very pleased.

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by Mergatroyd

Agreed! But is the EPA going to win and destroy light diesels in the end?

It looks like some folks don't remember the old ford 6.9, 7.3 or dodges 5.9....they all were around 165-185 horsepower...now all are 400 hp and 800-900 ft lbs of torque all done with clean fuel, multi- fire injectors, variable timing..you can go back to the old fuel and short- lived Diesel engines...I sure like my new ram with 370 hp and 800 lbs of torque 1300 rpm and 65 mph all day long...

[xrvr]

Once the man made cause of climate change is debunked, you'll see diesel prices drop as EPA regulations are lessened...the truth will come out.

[RandyNH]

Hear Hear! Blue skies are so overrated.. I'm all for air quality like at the Chinese Olympics and water quality like the Rio Olympics. While we're at it we should privatize all the national parks so they can be clear cut and deforested, then the views would be better... That way the cost of diesel can go down fifty cents a gallon.. Oh wait all those logging trucks will need diesel fuel keeping the demand and price high.. hmmmm.. There's gotta be a way around it somehow.

Why when people ask about what they need for a truck on here, most will answer an F150 Ecoboost is more than enough to pull any airstream, do people think "I need 1000 lbs of torque" just so they can PASS someone while going up to 10,000ft elev. Oh ya, I bought a diesel for the downhills...

[Mergatroyd]

The technology is there to get 99.9% of the pollutants out of diesel exhaust, but when you go after that last 0.1% it becomes so expensive that the industry is destroyed while providing no noticeable improvement in air quality.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by avionstream

Once the man made cause of climate change is debunked, you'll see diesel prices drop as EPA regulations are lessened...the truth will come out.

Dont hold your breath waiting. The science is very solid.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Mergatroyd

The technology is there to get 99.9% of the pollutants out of diesel exhaust, but when you go after that last 0.1% it becomes so expensive that the industry is destroyed while providing no noticeable improvement in air quality.

You can't directly compare diesel emissions and gasoline engine emissions. Different pollutants and different quantities of some pollutants. We aren't anywhere near 99.9% with current diesels.

Diesel exhaust has much more negative impact on air quality, and on human health.

That is why the suggestion that the best engine will win out, like LED light bulbs, doesn't work. Diesel owners get the economic benefits of fuel efficiency and long engine life, while socializing the costs in terms of air quality and public health.

[tjdonahoe]

Look at the new diesel exhaust pipe....they are clean, I wouldn't have anything else..and I don't have to use the flashers while going up the hills, never have and never will, my last KW had a 500 hp cat...like my new ram with a commalong...

[DC Bruce]

Our friends in Europe have discovered that the forced deployment of small diesels in cars has resulted in seriously bad air quality in a number of their cities, mostly due to invisibly small particulates. So future Diesel engines are likely to employed where they make the most sense--in trucks where high torque at low rpm is needed. Putting a diesel in a small car is silly. On a gallons per mile basis (the only realistic way to measure fuel economy), an improvement from, say 32 mpg to 44 mpg is trivial in terms of fuel saved and cost avoided.