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Old 02-06-2013, 09:48 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Sylver Slypr View Post
This "Locker" is a Limited slip torque bias differential Being compared with an open (non limited slip) stock rear
It's a locker, being compared to a limited slip, compared to an open.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:10 PM   #114
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"Lockers" are Limited slip/Open is Opennot limited slip

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Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
It's a locker, being compared to a limited slip, compared to an open.
The terminology is confusing everyone.A "True" Locker does not have any torque bias(1:1) a limited slip does.What is being called a locker is not by definition a locked differential. If you read my earlier post on the tru-trac you will realize all lockers except some air/electric switchable units are in fact limited slip ie;clutches,gears ,cams etc.that apply torque bias in one fashion or another.Some of the Air lockers can achieve 1:1 lock-up with no torque bias.(Limited slip)A stock rear can be open or limited slip only I don't care what you call the device(G-80).Aftermarket locking rears are not designed or approved for street use.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:47 AM   #115
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A 4WD may not be much of a necessary item but it is real sporty.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:15 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylver Slypr View Post
The terminology is confusing everyone.A "True" Locker does not have any torque bias(1:1) a limited slip does.What is being called a locker is not by definition a locked differential. If you read my earlier post on the tru-trac you will realize all lockers except some air/electric switchable units are in fact limited slip ie;clutches,gears ,cams etc.that apply torque bias in one fashion or another.Some of the Air lockers can achieve 1:1 lock-up with no torque bias.(Limited slip)A stock rear can be open or limited slip only I don't care what you call the device(G-80).Aftermarket locking rears are not designed or approved for street use.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Both the Eaton units discussed are lockers, with safety and driveability features incorporated to allow street use. Both the eaton units LOCK SOLID under all situations after engagement with the exception of a safety "pop off" valve, if you will, where you could hit dry pavement with one wheel while engaged under high torque and snap an axle. Even then, they will only slip maybe 1/4 to 1/2 revolution to soften the shock. What you are missing here between these lockers and a LSD is as I stated above....an LSD has a fixed point of applied torque that will slip the clutches. As long as that torque is applied and the traction surface doesn't change substantially, the vehicle will sit and spin....and smoke the clutch pack, if the idiot doesn't drive properly.

The Lockers have a cammed ramp up of clutch pack apply pressures. These apply pressures are in direct proportion to the torque applied to the diff case after a slip is detected and engagement of the pawl occurs. The amount of clutch pressure during this ramp up is always substantially higher than the torque applied by the pinion can overcome...thus it is LOCKED.

These LOCKERS differ from the off road models you site as "true lockers" in that:

G80 mechanically is prevented from engaging above 20mph, for safety, and disengages at 20 mph with a hair of left steering input. (It has to see a little bit of unequal axle shaft speed to releive pressure on the governor pawl allow disengagement)

The eLocker also will not operate (in the hi set) above 20mph and disengages ELECTRONICALLY above 20 mph....for street safety. Although I am not very familiar with the eLocker Ford uses, I believe it also has a protection device to prevent hard part fracture under impact loading situations as well.

I would find common ground with you and say that these lockers are not well suited for extreme off roading. They are less robust cousins to what I think you refer to as "true Lockers"....but they are in no way a relation to an LSD.

Remember, these street versions of lockers are designed for the way we RVers and folks who go to work every day use their trucks. LOCK the rear axle for low speed tugging of ASes out of sandy sites, pull that Bobcat trailer out of the construction site, pull that tree stump, etc.

Under these circumstances, they are operationally LOCKED and WILL NOT SLIP, period.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:28 AM   #117
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DZNF0G,

Would you say that a 2 wheel drive pick-up with a "locker", such as the newly introduced 2014 GM 1/2 units, is a viable alternative to four wheel drive?

Thanks,

John S.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:48 AM   #118
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For most towing situations, yes. I would prefer a 2wd with a locker over a 4wd with open diffs or limited slip. I have used both and have gotten out of sandy, muddy, gravely, slick wet leafy, uneven sites easily with 2wd/locker.

The exception is when you are in a high load very hilly site. Perfect example is my storage site. It is a retired concrete pig lot behind and below a barn.
pulling out, it transitions to gravel and it is a very steep transition, such that the AS tail drags if I have WD cinched up. Pulling a 9000# AS up and curved around to the left puts a big strain on the drivetrain. I have done it with 2wd/locker and it gets out fine with very little (both rear) wheel spin. But it is really nice to drop into the low set with 4wd and creep out without all that driveline strain.

Is that enough to justify 4wd?????? You decide. There are other situations where 4wd is necessary and you won't perform as well with 2wd/locker, but it is probaby 1% or less of the time for most of us. All that said, when I do have to buy a new TV for retirement, I probably will get 4wd, just because I plan see remote areas of the country, whether hitched up or not.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:16 AM   #119
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Found a good video on the eLocker. At about 2 minutes in, it goes through the mechanics. I don't see a "pop off" safety...but it is electronically controlled, and pretty substantially on the OEM Ford. So there may be an electronic safety. I know Ford does disallow, electronically, operation above 20 mph in the high t-case set. Don't see any mechanical "safetys".

Eaton ELocker Differential - YouTube
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:31 AM   #120
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And G80, kind of old school, but completely automatic and requires no driver intervention. Right at the end is the most important phrase which distinguishes this LOCKER from a Limited Slip. "With the wheels LOCKED together, maximum driveline torque is delivered to the high traction wheel."

You can only to that with a locker...never an LSD.

Inside the Eaton G80 Locker - YouTube
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:45 AM   #121
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Question Back to the Question

There are situations that have not been discussed yet, where 4WD will always beat 2WD either RWD or FWD. An example is encountered driving on beaches and other sandy areas where water is present. There are often narrow areas just below the otherwise uniform sandy surface where water is flowing very slowly (seeping). When you get both wheels of a drive axle in one of these invisible streams. you are going no farther unless you have 4WD or are going fast enough (which is usually too fast for the conditions) to allow momentum to carry you through. You can, and I have, also become need-a-tow stuck thinking you can drive through a narrow cross road stream or puddle without checking the ground under the water. I had the rear drive axle totally stuck in a puddle. Had the truck been 4WD, I would have been through it without a hitch, because the puddle was narrower than the truck's wheel base. The front axle was on solid ground with good traction.

So even though different types of differentials will have differing successes, when you have equal differentials, the vehicle with 4WD will have a very distinct advantange over a 2WD vehicle.

To address the original question. "Is 4WD much of a necessity?"-
First of all the word necessity is an absolute thing. It does not come in various degrees. Something is either necessary or unnecessary. So using that word, 4WD is unnecessary for towing 98.32% of the time. An individual must look at his typical towing environment and personal tendency to take chances, and decide what his chances are of encountering the remaining 1.68% of the time. He must also decide how much inconvenience he is willing to suffer if he does encounter that 1.68%.

Ken
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:59 AM   #122
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Yes, Ken is correct. There are times and situations when nothing but 4wd will get you out. For ASers, we individuall have to look our situation and travel desires. For me, I will get a 4wd WITH a G80 locker. G80 is, I think, still under $500.

But, Ken, I think a healthy axle discussion is "on the question". There is a lot of confusion and lack of understanding to axle and diff offerings. Trying to clear that info up is essential, IMO, to deciding 2wd alternatives to 4wd and options in addition to 4wd.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:23 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
Yes, Ken is correct. There are times and situations when nothing but 4wd will get you out. For ASers, we individuall have to look our situation and travel desires. For me, I will get a 4wd WITH a G80 locker. G80 is, I think, still under $500.

But, Ken, I think a healthy axle discussion is "on the question". There is a lot of confusion and lack of understanding to axle and diff offerings. Trying to clear that info up is essential, IMO, to deciding 2wd alternatives to 4wd and options in addition to 4wd.
I did learn quite a bit from the differential discussion. However it is somewhat difficult to put it all in perspective, due to the seeming disagreement about what term means what to different participants. However, I will file it away for the next time I buy a 4WD vehicle and use it for a basis to research what is available.

It was not my intent to say that the discussion was off topic. I am sure it will be valuable to anyone who buys a TV in the future. It just seemed that the point needed to be made that 4WD's relative worth or desirability is largely going to have to be decided by the purchaser, based on his own uses. I see how the title I chose could be taken as a statement that the discussion had gotten off topic. That was not the intent. It was just an announcement that I was going in a different direction.

Ken
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:46 AM   #124
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I disagree wholeheartedly. Both the Eaton units discussed are lockers, with safety and driveability features incorporated to allow street use. Both the eaton units LOCK SOLID under all situations after engagement
My Suburban has the G80 "gov lock" diff. Dznf0g is absolutely correct -- this is a locking differential, not a limited slip one (I've had those too). The G80 diff has two modes of operation -- open and locked. When it's open, it's just like a garden variety non-locking diff with no torque bias at all. When it locks, it locks completely and there's no slip at all until the torque limit is reached as dznf0g describes.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:51 AM   #125
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Would you say that a 2 wheel drive pick-up with a "locker", such as the newly introduced 2014 GM 1/2 units, is a viable alternative to four wheel drive?
No.

First of all, as a practical matter, nearly all 4wd pickups and large SUVs are equipped with some sort of locking or limited-slip rear axle. So the 4wd is providing traction above and beyond that.

There have been all kinds of situations where my 4wd truck and burb were stuck in the snow, mud, or wet grass, G80 locking diff and all, until I engaged the front axle.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:51 AM   #126
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No worries, Ken!
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