Intentional Over Weight

[Airstreamer67]

QUOTE: "...in particular the knowledge of how to reinforce the hitch and fine-tuning the final setup (though this was simplified in my case because I already owned a Hensley -- by choice...it wasn't required as far as Can-AM were concerned). But if you go with a lesser hitch, you have to pay that much closer attention to the details...."

I have seen this sentiment expressed by some owners of the Hensley hitches; i.e., if you have one of them you will not have to be as careful about tow vehicles or their setups because the hitches possess powers that allow less vigilance compared to "lesser" hitches.

I suppose the hitch manufacturers engender that idea, but I wouldn't believe it. There is no proof that their hitch design allows travel with fewer accidents than other, less complex and expensive, designs. I wouldn't cut any corners just because I have one.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by Airstreamer67

QUOTE: "...in particular the knowledge of how to reinforce the hitch and fine-tuning the final setup (though this was simplified in my case because I already owned a Hensley -- by choice...it wasn't required as far as Can-AM were concerned). But if you go with a lesser hitch, you have to pay that much closer attention to the details...."

I have seen this sentiment expressed by some owners of the Hensley hitches; i.e., if you have one of them you will not have to be as careful about tow vehicles or their setups because the hitches possess powers that allow less vigilance compared to "lesser" hitches.

I suppose the hitch manufacturers engender that idea, but I wouldn't believe it. There is no proof that their hitch design allows travel with fewer accidents than other, less complex and expensive, designs. I wouldn't cut any corners just because I have one.

Agreed. I have a "lesser" hitch, and I don't do any steering correction when semis pass -- This is not a feature exclusive to PPP hitches. You are also right, the effect of PPP hitches on towing safety is unknown. There are reports of accidents with PPP hitches on this forum. I've noticed that PPP hitch owners feel comfortable towing at higher speed. That may actually reduce safety of the rig. I agree with you, a "better" hitch does not increase towing capacity.

[upnorththree]

Originally Posted by cazual6

Ok, so IF the wife does get me the AS25, -THIS IS GOING TO BE A COMPLEX QUESTION TO ANSWER - but I am looking for a yes or no answer.

Knowing I am over the weight capacity of the TV, here are my questions (yes or no answer please)

1. Is it safe?
2. Using it to tow roughly eight times a year, on a relatively flat travel route and destination, diligently following the scheduled maintenance on the TV, will it last three more years?
3. Would you do it?

Additional comments here... let the bashing begin. (I know this forum too well), but if you do bash, you have to equally say something good too. Hey it's the holidays.

You're right about one thing. Way too many snarky comments from total strangers who know everything about everything.

Anyway, to your request for opinion . . . no, no, and no. Sorry but, at the end of the day, you and your family could be the ones wrapped around a tree or over a cliff if something goes wrong.

I went in to a 25 this fall. Upgraded from a Sierra SLE 1500, 5.3L to a RAM 1500 diesel. It turned my $60k ish camper venture in to a $110k ish rig.

My entire focus was on safety. But, that's me. There was a goofy comment I heard some time ago 'it's about the economy stupid'. Well, with me it was 'it's about safety stupid'.

When I told my insurance agent my plans he asked, 'what if you're flying down the highway and byway and your overweight tongue rips your receiver right off your TV and sails in to oncoming traffic? He added, being overweight while driving through the flat lands will be the LEAST of your worries.

Nuff said. I went bigger. And my wife and I are on 'fixed incomes'.

Life has all kinds of priorities. What's yours?

Safety should not be Cazual.
Popeye

[upnorththree]

Originally Posted by Foiled Again

Used tow vehicle definitely a much better Option!!!!!

I had one wreck.... with a great 2500 diesel Silverado... the police officer was shocked that I was alive, and couldnt believe that I walked away.

That BIG tow vehicle might be expensive but compared to living with a spinal cord injury... best bargain I ever made. Get an old "pre-dented for carefree camping" truck and be safe out there.

Couldn't agree more. Not to mention your rig flying off in to oncoming traffic.

It's all about safety.
Popeye

[cazual6]

Love the responses. Andrew responded to me with a recommendation, but unless he does the work from start to finish, it will be a no go for me. I believe Andrew has a reputation everyone can agree it is one of the best. Discussed the used vehicle option with the wife, it is a no. Coughing up $100k is doable, but coughing up another $50k or so for a TV, is not gonna fly. Looks like I'll have to wait. At least now I can rest that curiosity. Much appreciated team. I hope in March I'll get the birthday present ;-) . The rental is still an option.

[Garfield]

Originally Posted by Airstreamer67

QUOTE: "...in particular the knowledge of how to reinforce the hitch and fine-tuning the final setup (though this was simplified in my case because I already owned a Hensley -- by choice...it wasn't required as far as Can-AM were concerned). But if you go with a lesser hitch, you have to pay that much closer attention to the details...."

I have seen this sentiment expressed by some owners of the Hensley hitches; i.e., if you have one of them you will not have to be as careful about tow vehicles or their setups because the hitches possess powers that allow less vigilance compared to "lesser" hitches.

I suppose the hitch manufacturers engender that idea, but I wouldn't believe it. There is no proof that their hitch design allows travel with fewer accidents than other, less complex and expensive, designs. I wouldn't cut any corners just because I have one.

Yes, well I don't mean to be presumptuous as I have no idea what your setup is or what you tow with, but most often I find this kind of statement made by folks that have no experience with a Hensley/PP. If I'm wrong, my apologies.

"Standard" hitches with separate weight-distribution and sway controls can be effective if they are set up properly. Unfortunately in many cases they are not set up correctly but either the owners have no idea what a proper setup feels like to drive, or worse, problems are masked because they're using a TV that's overkill for the trailer they're towing. If you really want to test your hitch, try towing with a modest TV...any problems will show up immediately, trust me.

Anyway, what I meant in my post was that when using a Hensley (or PP) you don't have to be AS careful about the hitch setup as you do with a lesser hitch because it essentially eliminates any consideration for whether to use 0, 1 or 2 friction sway bars, or how to keep them adjusted to dampen trailer-induced sway. If you have a Hensley/PP just hook up and go...there's nothing to think about. That's what I mean by simplified.

[switz]

In September of 2012, I got an idea to acquire a small Airstream as an on-site trailer to supervise a dream project. I knew the numbers on my proposed tow vehicle: 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI V6 diesel with continuous four wheel drive and tow package from the factory. I initially was considering the 19' Airstream model as the numbers were all within range.

I stumbled onto this forum and started reading. There were folks with a similar vehicle towing 31' Airstreams in Canada. I called and talked with several of these owners as well as Andy at CanAm. End result was a I drove the round trip of 4,400 miles in a week from Phoenix to CanAm in London Ontario with a day there to modify and reinforce the factory hitch (previously rewelded by a factory recall). The 19' morphed into a 2013 25FB International Serenity and the dream project vaporized.

The first surprise was the Airstream literature tongue weight of 833 pounds was in reality 1,150 pounds with the Hensley Arrow hitch head attached, full propane and water tanks, a 155 watt solar panel on the roof, street side and rear awnings attached and my brief case inside sitting on the dealer's lot in Los Angles. We got the Prodigy RF brake controller working and the Hensley hitch setup by talking to Andy during the setup.

I departed eastward on I-10. The maximum speed to tow in California was 55 mph which was fine with me. The car would shift to 7th gear on the level. At Palm Springs there is a massive long climb into the mountains and the engine downshifted to 4th at 3,100 rpm and we motored up the hill at 55 just fine.

We loaded the trailer and hit the scales. I adjusted the payload around and the tongue weight was 1,175 pounds camping ready. However the drivetrain was not too happy at just over 6,900 pound of trailer behind.

This resulted in the acquisition of a 2012 Ram 2500HD Cummins 4x4. Towing issues solved. The 25FB was traded in on a 31' 2014 Classic after saving the Hensley hitch. That new combined rig with the ProPride hitch weighs 19,200 pounds fully loaded with everything we want along. All the numbers are within limits per the appropriate placards.

We acquired a 2015 23D International Serenity and reused the Hensley Arrow hitch. After extensive modifications, it scales 6,063 pounds. Part of the mods included going to the same model 15" Michelin tires I had installed on the 25FB. Therefore both trailers were the same elevation and the same settings could be used on the 23D. The tongue weight is 928 pounds and all the tire loads are within the derated 1,985 pound tire load limit:

Tongue………928
Front….1,280……1,246 - total front axle 2,526
Rear…..1,376……1,233 - total rear axle 2,609
Total Axles………5,135
Total Trailer….6,063

I stopped by CanAm bringing the trailer West from the selling dealership and Andy at CanAm really fine tuned the Hensley setup. I learned a lot by watching what he did that is not in any of the manuals.

We continue with the self-imposed 55 mph speed limit and see over 17mpg on the flats. We can maintain 55 climbing in 4th gear at 3,100 rpm. On a steep decent, I find 35 mph in second allows the engine back pressure to control speed without using any brakes.

The Mercedes has the two of us, a single 2000 watt propane only Honda generator, a small grill, a battery powered air compressor, two matching fabric to our awnings ZipDee chairs, and if needed for the particular trip, a spare full propane tank. The truck, we can just throw it in the back and go as I have my own sets of scales to verify weights.

The Ram is just slightly heavier than the Classic going down the road and the Mercedes is slightly heavier as well.

For us, we have the appropriate tow vehicle for each trailer and the numbers work.

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by Garfield

Yes, well I don't mean to be presumptuous as I have no idea what your setup is or what you tow with, but most often I find this kind of statement made by folks that have no experience with a Hensley/PP. If I'm wrong, my apologies.

"Standard" hitches with separate weight-distribution and sway controls can be effective if they are set up properly. Unfortunately in many cases they are not set up correctly but either the owners have no idea what a proper setup feels like to drive, or worse, problems are masked because they're using a TV that's overkill for the trailer they're towing. If you really want to test your hitch, try towing with a modest TV...any problems will show up immediately, trust me.

Anyway, what I meant in my post was that when using a Hensley (or PP) you don't have to be AS careful about the hitch setup as you do with a lesser hitch because it essentially eliminates any consideration for whether to use 0, 1 or 2 friction sway bars, or how to keep them adjusted to dampen trailer-induced sway. If you have a Hensley/PP just hook up and go...there's nothing to think about. That's what I mean by simplified.

can you send me a direct link to the hitch you are referring to instead of just the main website? I want to bookmark it and set it aside for my wish list. ty

[rmkrum]

It is still necessary to adjust a PP or Hensley a little to assure proper weight distribution, set the brake controller, etc. on departure.

It's not quite hitch and head out. But you don't have to fiddle with sway control adjustments. That's the main advantage.


Sent from my pocket Internet using Airstream Forums

[cazual6]

Well team, after pleading with the wife, she finally stop my mission.



This why you shouldn't get married and have kids!!

[PaulnGina]

Originally Posted by cazual6

Well team, after pleading with the wife, she finally stop my mission.



This why you shouldn't get married and have kids!!

Not going to touch that one......

Maybe you need to consider a modified mission..... one that doesn't require such a massive outlay of cash or indebtedness. You can get a nice camper (AS, Avion, etc) to enjoy for a relatively minimal investment, then be on the road (pun intended) to making some great family memories.

Maybe your dream really isn't dead...... just look through a different prism.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by PaulnGina

Not going to touch that one......



Maybe you need to consider a modified mission..... one that doesn't require such a massive outlay of cash or indebtedness. You can get a nice camper (AS, Avion, etc) to enjoy for a relatively minimal investment, then be on the road (pun intended) to making some great family memories.



Maybe your dream really isn't dead...... just look through a different prism.

Very good point.

I'm reminded of these brilliant Springsteen lyrics:

"Poor man wanna be rich.
Rich man wanna be king.
And a king ain't satisfied 'til he owns everything."

While there's a value to never being satisfied - it is the root of progress, yes? - there's something to be said for being content. Or - as a rabbi friend of mine once said - that commandment about "not coveting you're neighbor's stuff" might just mean to enjoy the stuff you have. Or to beat this horse further - as Cheryl Crow said - "it's not having what you want - it's wanting what you've got..."

I know "2-footisis" is a thing - but a sweet 19' Airstream ain't nothing to sneeze at either...

Happy and safe camping, Cazual and everyone!

[PaulnGina]

If you think about it..... you might be in a better bargaining position now! Since you shot for the moon on your first pass, something of a lesser dollar amount might fly.

Be sure to remind her of the memories you'll make, things you can do together, the educational opportunities the kids will have, no gross hotel rooms to contend with, etc.

Good luck!

[cazual6]

Amen! Amen team! thanks for the support and advices.

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

Very good point.

I'm reminded of these brilliant Springsteen lyrics:

"Poor man wanna be rich.
Rich man wanna be king.
And a king ain't satisfied 'til he owns everything."

Very nice!

Just a quick update. Went with a friend to pick up is SOB 25'er. The sales guy there showed him a few Toy Haulers. It raised an eye brow, well because the layout was open. More space.

Which reminded me the reason why I wanted to get a 25'er. My kids are growing, 8 and 12, sleeping on the dinette is becoming very tight.

It's on Feb, I still have a month......

Maybe I should set up a go fund page

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by cazual6

Very nice!

Just a quick update. Went with a friend to pick up is SOB 25'er. The sales guy there showed him a few Toy Haulers. It raised an eye brow, well because the layout was open. More space.

Which reminded me the reason why I wanted to get a 25'er. My kids are growing, 8 and 12, sleeping on the dinette is becoming very tight.

It's on Feb, I still have a month......

Maybe I should set up a go fund page

My kids grew up with our 23' avion, I used it while working away from home, the toy hauler would have been a lot better with them, more room and bunk beds in the back..

[switz]

Some folks really like the Airstream Flying Cloud 30' bunk model when have their younger kids.

https://www.airstream.com/travel-tra...pecifications/

[Mollysdad]

I think back on the things I did 40 years ago and survived.
I drove 100 miles with no brakes other than the emergency lever.
I drove 50 miles with no headlights because my alternator failed.
I pulled a triple axle boat trailer with a Chevy Malibu.
Raced cars on frozen lakes.
Driven 145 on country roads. (67' Corvette)

So, I figured I've used up all my "get out of trouble free" cards, and now I err on the side of safety.

No, I wouldn't do it.