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Old 12-08-2014, 01:28 AM   #85
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If one is purchasing a tow vehicle specifically, it would be IMO to get something which will be the most comfortable towing. While Cayennes can tow, this is not what they are primarily designed for. Towing 20,000 miles with a Cayenne vs. a 3/4 ton diesel truck would be miserable IMO, again, as the sway factor, torque curve, and driver ride height are far less suitable in a Cayenne. I prefer to sit at a height I can see over the traffic, not really possible in the Cayenne compared to a big 4 x 4 truck. Cost of owning a Porsche, of which I have had seven, can be very high, as it is a superb touring vehicle, the best I think, but not an economical ride.

Oh well....


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Old 12-08-2014, 06:08 PM   #86
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Thanx Franswa!

FYI - The hitch reinforcement that Andy T. at CanAm reccos & IIRC he did for PCNA's Cayenne Diesel in his "Hitch Hints" article has to do with reinforcing the welds to better withstand a WD hitch over the long term. He reccos the same for Cayenne, Taureg & Audi Q7 as I recall.

So it is not to increase the towing capacity, but just to strengthen the hitch itself to prevent hitch failures as far as I know.

The net payload is the limiting factor on this & other SUVs & 1/2T pick-ups.

Note that the curb wt. I is supposed to include a 150# driver + full fuel & fluids - so add your wt. over 150# + that of your passenger + any luggage/etc. + hitch & TT HW.

I couldn't recall if Porsche offered a full size spare, so probably the off-roading Cayennes that I've seen with them on a roof rack/etc. have just picked up an extra wheel & tire or 2 to carry with. Unless added to a rear rack on the TT or inside the TT - that will also take away from payload of the Cayenne.

I think that the Cayenne S V8 is somewhat less expensive on the regular fluids/maintenance, but it is a Porsche. However, from talking with owners of other Luxe Euro, Japanese & Big 3 SUVs with V8's - there really is not a huge drop in the ongoing cost, & as I said previously - towing adds wear-n-tear to all vehicles, so costs will be higher due to the more frequent preventative (early fluid changes) & regular & wear maintenance.

So MBZ, BMW, Audi & VW will all be in the same range as the Porsche Cayenne (or Macan) for a touring/DD &/or TV duty - as will be the Toyota/Lexus & Nissan/Infinity equivalent SUVs & power-plants - & the Chevy/GMC/Caddy, Ford/Lincoln & Dodge/RAM are not far off that cost either!

ALL vehicles today are complex collections of computers, sensors & electronic wizardry which can no longer be easily serviced - and this sadly bodes poorly for having any sort of survivor "classic car" future 25-35 years old on everything since the 1990's or 2000's!

Porsche has grown to be a top manufacturer in recent years with both JD Powers & Consumer Reports, & the latter now likes the Series 2 (or Ser. 1B) 2008> Cayenne & for a top ranked TV. I think it was the April or October 2014 Consumer Reports issue.
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Old 12-08-2014, 06:45 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
Note that the curb wt. I is supposed to include a 150# driver + full fuel & fluids - so add your wt. over 150# + that of your passenger + any luggage/etc. + hitch & TT HW.
I believe the manufacturers factor in a 150# driver for GCWR purpose only, and for payload considerations, you must add the weight of all occupants including the driver, but your user manual could verify this. For our Benz GL, the weight of fuel is NOT part of the curb weight (per my measurements at the CAT scale). So a full tank of fuel deducts from the available payload. Again this could be different for Porsche.
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Old 12-09-2014, 02:33 AM   #88
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In fact by agencies' definitions & codes - & by the usual practice of manufacturers' specifications here in the USA, Canada & Europe, the Curb Weight usually includes the fluids & fuel (90% or 100% full) & the driver's weight at 150# ....

But it's really not a clear & standard definition & usage - err definitions & uses - & they've changed it over time. So checking your owner's manual specs & notes/definitions thereto is the only way to know for sure, since there is wiggle room for them to pick anything.

Hopefully they're at least consistent within your own vehicle data & define it correctly there for owners, since that's the only way to have an accurate payload or "useful load" calculation!

<snipped from:
40 CFR 86.1803-01 - Definitions. | LII / Legal Information Institute >
40 CFR 86.1803-01 - Definitions.

Curb weight means the actual or the manufacturer's estimated weight of the vehicle in operational status with all standard equipment, and weight of fuel at nominal tank capacity, and the weight of optional equipment computed in accordance with 86.1832-01; incomplete light-duty trucks shall have the curb weight specified by the manufacturer.

~ and ~

86.1832-01 Optional equipment and air conditioning for test vehicles. For test vehicles selected under 86.1822-01 and 86.1828-01:
(a)
(1) Where it is expected that more than 33 percent of a car line, within a test group, will be equipped with an item (whether that item is standard equipment or an option), the full estimated weight of that item must be included in the curb weight computation for each vehicle available with that item in that car line, within that test group.

....


<end snip>

... and to further confuse matters, there are US + 2 Euro definitions ....

<snipped from:
US Curb and EU Kerb weights, an attempt at clarifying the differences. >
Summary of definitions:

US Curb Weight:
  • Weight of car with fluids and fuel at 100% as well as weight of any option expected to be in more than 33% of vehicles sold. Driver not included in US legal defintion, but usually included in manufacturers public figures.

EU Kerb Weight/Leergewicht EG:


Latest EU definition of "mass in running order" (curb weight) according to 1230/2012/EEC:
  • "the mass of the vehicle, with its fuel tank(s) filled to at least 90 % of its or their capacity/ies, including the mass of the driver, of the fuel and liquids, fitted with the standard equipment in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications and, when they are fitted, the mass of the bodywork, the cabin, the coupling and the spare wheel(s) as well as the tools"

Previous EU definition of mass of the vehicle:
  • Weight of car with fluids at 100% and fuel at 90%. Driver included in type approval and official documentation. However the defintion of "Mass of the vehicle" does not include driver, but the EU-Directive defines that the weight of the driver (75kg) shall be included in type approval applications. The weight is given for the base vehicle with no options mandatory for the kerb weight.

DIN/ISO Kerb Weight/Leergewicht DIN:
  • DIN curb weight consists of vehicle, including 90% of fuel, driver, tool kit, warning triangle and spare tire (when fitted). Basically similar to EU curb weight definition. But as the old DIN weights did not include driver, I guess that when there is a reference from someone such as BMW, or others, to a "DIN curb weight" it can be assumed that it is without driver.
  • As pointed out by Solstice in his Porsche weight examples; Leergewicht DIN is used when the curb weight without driver is stated.
  • In German magazines the 1495-1500kg curb weight of the F8x is referred to as the DIN weight, further indicating that manufacturers use Leergewicht DIN as the standard for curb weight without driver.
<end snip>
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:24 AM   #89
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The best thing to do obviously is to fully fill the TV tanks & go weigh the TV on the scale, then add driver & passenger(s) weights, then subtract that total from the Maximum Load Capacity or GVWR.

See!! ... your Math Teacher was right - there are real world uses for it!!!

I'm not sure where Franswa got his "published curb weights with options" from, but on the Porsche AG website I found 2008 Cayenne US Specs by Porsche as an official Porsche website Press Release:

2008 Cayenne S (V8):

Maximum load capacity: 6,790 lbs

Base Curb Weight ____- 4,950 lbs < adjust to actual weighed vehicle

Net Useful Load: . . . . 1,840 lbs < TBD per above actual curb weight

NOTE: This chart doesn't include the definition, but since all official definitions since pre-2008 include 90-100% fuel + any "Cayenne S" included options, & AC is in more than 33% of them - I'll assume it includes all those & full other fluids, & since it's post DIN change to include the 75 kg driver (165#) - I'll assume it includes them all with a 150-165# driver. If not, then it's 150-165# off that payload.

I don't know what all options got the Cayenne S 750# up from the 4950# base curb weight, to Franswa's 5700#, but I suppose it's possible to hang that much stuff on there if you "loaded" it - in both respects - cost & weight! All the more reason to limit options you really don't want/need if you want a good useful load, &/or 5 passengers at 150# or more each totaling +/- 750# of that payload!

One hopes that they actually do build in a 200% or more safety factor into all vehicles, because I think you'll find that with all seats & the trunk/rear full in ANY car/truck/suv - they're ALL seriously overweight!! And to think how overweight that `67 Bug of my buddy's was with 12 packed in there - especially AFTER the pizza dinner!!!!

Link to pdf spec sheet:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...81449611,d.aWw
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Old 12-09-2014, 01:15 PM   #90
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Don't believe those tricky German marketers, the 2008 sheet leaves out the part about "depending on equipment" 2006 still had that I believe, here's actual tech info, it should help you. I havent looked at this in a loong time, but i think they factor in a 164lb person (DIN) but again the max payload range does not use the din number, so subtract 164 again from the listed range. (Its a range not the difference between 06 and 08, thats for something farther down the page) I can assure everyone that any cayenne sold in the US will be close to its maximum curb weight. I was working on a diesel this morning and noticed it has a 6283 gvw. Unfortunately they no longer provide these pretty awesome tech guides, so I'm not sure what the curb weights listed are, but I'm pretty sure cargo capacity has been lowered again.
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Old 12-09-2014, 01:16 PM   #91
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If you can read the tiny confusing print:
Attached Thumbnails
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ID:	228275   Click image for larger version

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Old 12-09-2014, 01:33 PM   #92
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Just to make sure there were no surprises, I filled the tank and went to a CAT scale. I deducted my weight from gross weight (let's call it x). My payload would be GVWR - x. It turned out to be 1200#, which was actually 50# more than the door stocker payload, but still 250# less than what Mercedes site advertises. My theory is that Mercedes does not include fuel weight in their website figure. I guess the door stocker should be accurate to +- 100#, and CAT scale is the most accurate way of figuring out payload. I wish car manufacturers followed the same standard for payload calculation, so consumers are not so confused.


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Old 12-10-2014, 01:17 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Franswa View Post
If you can read the tiny confusing print:
Thanx Franswa, that's really helpful.

Folks can click on the thumbnail pix & it goes to a very readable & save-able jpeg big pic.

I think some of the capability reductions across the board from all mfgrs. is to cut out more warranty liability for them.

One example that Andy T. noted in a recent Hitch Hints article, & one which I'd seen & was stymied by, was Chrysler reducing their V8 300's towing capacity from 5000# in the early to mid 2000's, to just 1000# in the latest generation 300.

Similarly, it seems that Chrysler & Ford just threw a dart & hit 1000# for towing capacity on a whole bunch of vehicles whose drivetrains, brakes & suspensions are rated much higher on other vehicle platforms that they want you to buy with higher profit margins.

Does anyone really think that the exact same Chrysler 300 platform with the same chassis & updated drivetrain is suddenly 1/5 as capable a vehicle!!??
... or are the new owners (Fiat) & the former ones (we taxpayers, err US govt.) just doing some warranty CYA!!??

I'll bet on the latter!

Look - none of these vehicles are engineered so close to the hairline edge that a pound or 100# or more over will make the vehicle fail. They are designed & engineered with a good percentage of over engineering of the structure & mechanical components at 150%, 200%, 300% or more.

I know some people in the automotive design & engineering industry, & they design to a safety factor, just as we do in my building & construction industry.

The sad truth is - as Franswa points out - the marketing folks will pick the engineering specs which look best for their gambit, the bean counters will try to reduce potential liability & warranty costs by discounting the figures as much as possible (vis-a-vis Chrysler 300 5000 > 1000# TW), & others are trying to game the safety, emissions & mpg testing process & numbers to their best effect!

In the meantime, we customers are left with a bunch of confusing, conflicting & probably irrelevant numbers, much of which is aimed at warranty & lawsuit liability exposure limitation for the manufacturers!

There are just way too many competing hidden agendas in this vehicle specifications game - not just capabilities & capacities, but the MPG Holy Grail as well (a Monty Python game of it's own! ) - to really have anyone hang their hat on any set of numbers from whichever spec sheet or vehicle data tag - let alone trying to guess how they came up with the numbers.

Again as Rostam did, weigh your vehicle as loaded &/or ready to go but unloaded, check your loads & try to stay within what numbers are given as best as you can.

In reality, if everyone actually drove at the speeds considered safe for towing, that would have far more effect on towing safety IMHO.

Now I'm not saying that one should presume to go double the ratings, but if a fully loaded TV + TT with a proper WD/AS hitch setup is performing well on the flat & up grades, with braking & down grades, & maneuvering - then it's probably a safe rig.

That is why SAE came out with the tow rating standard test to rate a TV - & the German TUV has had a similar testing process for rating too since the 1980s or earlier - & of which Porsche is one of the few mfgrs. following it to get tow ratings for their vehicles including the Cayenne.

After all that, I still have to think that the Porsche Cayenne's bigger brakes, stiffer suspension & more HP/TQ vs. the "corporate cousin" Taureg will both perform a bit better at both their identical given 7719# towing capacity (braked/WD), & probably has more capacity than the corporate bean counters & attorneys are allowing to be published.

That's my 4 cents!
Tom
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:59 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msmoto View Post
If one is purchasing a tow vehicle specifically, it would be IMO to get something which will be the most comfortable towing. While Cayennes can tow, this is not what they are primarily designed for. Towing 20,000 miles with a Cayenne vs. a 3/4 ton diesel truck would be miserable IMO, again, as the sway factor, torque curve, and driver ride height are far less suitable in a Cayenne. I prefer to sit at a height I can see over the traffic, not really possible in the Cayenne compared to a big 4 x 4 truck. Cost of owning a Porsche, of which I have had seven, can be very high, as it is a superb touring vehicle, the best I think, but not an economical ride.

Oh well....


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Tommie,

For my wife & I - after renting 2014 Dodge 2500 4x4's & Ford F250 4x4 this year (all gas but same or similar chassis as yours) + the F150 4x4 for me over 3200 miles in 2012 (800 towing) & having our "gizzards jiggled" for 400, 600 & 3200+ miles round trips - & whose ride was far worse compared to the 3 prior 2013 Nissan Pathfinder rentals last year on those 2 shorter trips (& the Cayenne rides better yet) - neither my wife nor I would now consider a 3/4 T 4x4 truck as a better TV, nor do we like the hoist way up into the overly jacked-up 4x4 full size trucks, & aren't bothered by the lower riding SUVs.

I guess it's a matter of preference, but the full sized trucks & SUVs just don't work for us in so many ways, that we'd vote for the smaller mid-sized V8 or maybe diesels over the big truck even if we were doing the 20000 miles which you tow. We just found the ride of the big trucks just barely bearable for less towing than you face.

We also need a TV that also works as a 3rd daily driver, fits our tight driveway & which my wife is comfortable driving. Additionally, we're in the smaller sub-25' TT category, and it's a vintage trailer when they were lighter than today's AS models loaded with more goodies, so IMHO the big truck approach is overkill for a 3000-3500# 20' TT.

And I'm not at all comfortable either with the huge low blind spots all around the big jacked-up 4x4 trucks from that "perch on high", especially in our neighborhood with tons of kids walking by to/from the high school next door + elementary, middle schools & a college up & down the street (& the college kids are some of the worst & least attentive).

I'd say that those are other considerations people should think about in TV choice. So maybe a few other perspectives to think about in the big truck vs. smaller mid-sized TV considerations, that I think are worth interjecting into this discussion here.

However, I do really appreciate your sharing your first hand Cayenne V8 towing experiences & noting the costs & limitations of it as a TV, coming as it is from a certified long term Porsche-phile.

Best Wishes,
Tom
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:45 AM   #95
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Hmm...
My 1/2 ton 2 wheel drive pickup rides sooo much better than my Nissan Pathfinder...
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:58 AM   #96
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Agree with Msmoto ... save your performance / sports vehicles for what they were designed and get a TV that was designed to tow ... it would be hard to beat a diesel TV BUT get one that was designed from the ground up to tow.
Certainly, the Cayenne wins the award for the "coolest" (if not one of the most expensive to maintain) diesel TVs. Can you tow with it ...YES; should you tow with it - only you can decide. I chose not to tow with any of my Porsches or Corvettes ... the pickup truck -for us as a TV- has advantages too numerous to count. YMMV !
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:23 AM   #97
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Input on Porsche Cayenne as TV (& 928's??)

The OP wanted Porsche Cayenne towing advice/experience.....not another "get a pickup truck" thread.

Here's my opposing view....if I was somehow regulated into driving a pickup truck for towing I would probably sell my Airstream.

There are many option that aren't pickup trucks that make excellent tow vehicles....the Cayenne is one of them.

Maintenance is what it is for a premium vehicle....and if you choose to dealer maintain the easy stuff you will pay for it. All vehicles need fluids, brakes, tires and over time occasional suspension work.
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:11 PM   #98
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Input on Porsche Cayenne as TV (& 928's??)

If I am not mistaken, Tom_T plans to tow a small vintage Avion that's lightweight and short. I think that makes Cayenne a viable choice -- with the caveat of high maintenance costs.

Pulling a large modern Airstream there is no question a pickup will outperform cayenne in terms of pulling/stopping/stability as Msmoto and others who have experience towing with both have noted. But remember Tom_T doesn't want to pull a large modern Airstream.


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