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Old 11-19-2014, 06:14 PM   #43
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FWIW - pix of other folks Cayennes towing AS etc. ..... oh, & one in farming work too!

Also one towing a Porsche 914 similar to mine, which I'll need to do for some of the resto work & thereafter at first for concours events until I get tired of that & want to really drive it like it's supposed to!
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Tom T (janabanana48's other half )
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Old 11-20-2014, 11:59 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Tom_T View Post
Wow! Thanx for all of the excellent info & links Slowmover - I've bookmarked & saved them all to read up on them.

As for our TT set-up & your reccos - a few questions & clarifications:

1.) We like you have the Hensley, so I'm not sure why one would then ad a TT brake operated anti-sway system on top of the excellent Hensley (or PP) unit which obviates the sway through the heads' cams/etc. movement?

... wouldn't they end up fighting each other in a sense - e.g.: braking opposite side while the Hensley head tries to do its "thing" - mechanism moves then returns causing braking to put forces at the wheel/tire opposite to what the Hensley is counteracting itself?


The electronic anti-sway is going to act far faster than the hitch. There are those who believe it makes a VPP hitch unnecessary.. I 'd rather be "belt & suspenders" in this regard. Quality of the brake system (design; and actual performance that day uder given conditions), tire detals, etc, make, IMO, the hitch and brakes superior concerns as the anti-sway is dependent on their best performance. Same for best WD numbers.


2.) We already have the Tekonsha RF (essentially a wireless Prodigy P3) mounted on the TT A-frame - so the controller unit usually mounted under-dash is instead mounted on the TT A-frame & stays there, while you hitch/connect 7-way & go thru a set-up & "pairing" procedure with the handheld unit plugged into the TV's 12v, & then adjust the boost for each TV on the street under braking conditions (only done once if using the same TV).

...So I'm confused as to why I'd need another brake controller which you recommend installed in the TV??

...a related question is then will the ABS box be compatible with our Tekonsha controller?

....& will it also work on our current electric drum brake set-up?


Brakes, as a whole, should be in consultation with TUSON. If one is going to change over to torsion axles, then weighing benefit of never-needs-adjustment disc brakes is worthwhile. Given your interest in high perf tow vehicles, a TT that is "invisible" in so many respects is on the right track. The TT that has the least effect on the TV rear axle is the path. I would prefer a tandem over a single for stability as it is more resistant to walking around. Thus, the numbers (scale-derived) are needed, IMO, to nail down what this TT of yours is, isn't and isn't likely to be. Spending doesn't always work out.

Trailer anti-lock is 100% on tractor-trailer rigs. That it has not been on TT's is a terrible thing. But as most are vacationers only running 5k annually (if that) the need to have best braking under all conditions is shrouded.

I would consider a wireless brake controller as a backup. Adequate until you have the TV you decide best. Wiring beats wireless. And the DIRECLINK controller is far more sophisticated ("invisibility", if you will). If new axles are in your future, start wth a clean sheet as to brakes.



3.) I thought that the main purpose of 10-15% TW was to keep a standard coupler fixed on the ball, which is not as much of an issue with a Hensley/PP head unit attached to the TT's coupler, then a solid bar stinger - rather than coupler on ball from Hensley head to TV receiver??

....of course getting the TW for other reasons is a good idea, so the scale is now in my plans!


Stability is from testing. For all trailers, 10% TW is a minimum. For TT's, 12-15%. Higher than 15% is "more" stable but at the penalty of greater payload reduction in the TV (if adequate WD can be done). Assume it to be like best tire pressure: part of the mechanical baseline that is numerical. If I make a change, I can measure it. If there is a problem, I can eliminate a lot of false starts by checking those numbers. This is well-illustrated in the following:

Diminished Hensley Performance?



4.) Are there any reasonably priced versions of those digital tire pad type scales around - like I've seen used at Good Sam or Safety Institute events where they weigh your TT/TV on-site?

...as of now I have a moving target each time with a different rented TV & my wife moving stuff around inside unknown to me, so something at hand while hitching up seems to be ideal!


THe SHERLINE gauge is handy for home use. As your TV's are rentals, running the combo across the scale -- loaded for camping, full fresh water and propane as well -- will serve as a cross check. You also need TT individual wheel position weights. I would also crank on the WD to measure what happens to those individual weights. A-frame and TT frame problems may be exposed as a result. Same for worn springs, etc.

5.) I agree on the suspension differences TV to TT, & yes our T20 still has the 6-leaf spring & square bar/tube dropped single axle unit with no shocks , but the PO had the shop at Camping World in ABQ update the electric drum brakes + axle & bearings in 2007, & I've had them repacked/resealed & serviced in 2012 & this past May (only about 3000 miles towed in that time).

Shocks are mostly for dampening & ride quality - which you can't ride in the TT anyway - & I see no excessive bounce from the TT when towing.


Without shock absorbers the tires heat more quickly. The dampers reduce the shock load. And your TT benefits from a smoother ride. CENTRAMATIC wheel balancers also a good idea.


The washboarding to which I was referring in the OP was mostly with the long wheelbase Dodge 2500 3/4T Crew Cab+Long Bed (8') giving a really crappy ride - even when unhitched - relative to the Pathfinder or even to the extended cab Ford F150 short bed (medium or short wheelbase?) used for the 1st tow-job trip 800+ miles ABQ to SoCal (although still a harsher ride than the Pathfinders). In all cases these are the "new age" 4x4 jacked up too high & too hard sprung versions that they're marketing depts. say is the only thing "boyz with big cahones" will buy!

... However, apparently the old stock style TT wheel bearings are now becoming NLA, so we may be forced to go to the newer torsion suspension with electric disc brakes & a different axle at some point, as you suggest.


6.) We're also running the Maxxix R8008 radial ST225/75R15 8PR Load D 2540# rated at 65# air pressure trailer tires (that's 5000# + for both) new in July `12 (date coded May`12), as recco'ed by the trailer resto expert who did the PPI for the T20, & they're still in the <5 yr range & no cracking nor excessive wear. What is the problem with these tires?


THere aren't any ST tires without problems. A new service designation that is not allowed for passenger service and apparently keeps worn down tire manufacturing machinery in serivce somewhat longer. That said, your lighteight TT may not have problems. Roll of the dice. FWIW I went through two sets of tires on mine as I screwed up in load index problems. Again, another reason to have individual weight numbers, with and without WD. If one can lessen across axle weight discrepancies, all the better. Take your time and do more reading to find what you consider the best approach. Tire engineers CapriRacer and Tireman9 are good to start. Bpth have websites as well.


7.) So is there some inherent problem in running this suspension & tire set-up for now with any of the TVs we may rent or buy??


I doubt it. After testing (numbers) and setting a good baseline at least. Level TT so that tire loads are more or less equal axle to axle. And, across each axle.

Consult with Andrew_T once you've covered a lot of questions on TVs, and same with TUSON on complete brake system if you decide to change axle type. If you keep the leafs, then Remove & Repair plus do upgrades.



Tom
///////
The main argument against modifying a TT this small is just that. Small & light. But it doesn't overcome inferior suspension and brakes. My much younger (and larger) Silver Streak rides on leaf-sprung axles . . but has shock absorbers, frame stiffeners and a better equalizer all OEM. Size, alone, doesn't make an argument.

In order of importance, tires, brakes and suspension are what allow us to get down the road. Sixty years is a little scary. No component of that should be original in actual age, and it is worth the trouble, IMO, to investigate what may be better. A few dollars more may buy a significant chunk of performance (which is risk minimization).

Less time and pressure on the brakes is one factor. (Slop in the lash-up is the Achilles Heel.)

Less time and degree in steering input is another. (Oversteer is an everpresent threat).

Pu the TT on a road with ruts. In the rain. In traffic. With a leaking tire. Come up with any set of condiitons. Driver skill is not ever the question.

.
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Old 11-20-2014, 12:03 PM   #45
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And your thread is a real pleasure to read. Love the pics and the links. Excellent!!
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Old 11-21-2014, 02:01 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
And your thread is a real pleasure to read. Love the pics and the links. Excellent!!
Thanx Slowmover! .... & Thanx for all that info in the big post above!

Ahhh .... ignorance id bliss!

My Dad had a saying that: "The more I learn, the more I learn I don't know." & his offshoot: "... , the more I find I still need to know."

It certainly applies here!
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Old 11-21-2014, 03:21 AM   #47
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Re: my 2005 Porsche Cayenne Turbo.... First, the Cayenne Turbo is the ultimate touring car, IMO. Extremely quick, excellent handling, and can go on mountain roads with ease. For example, on this road in my 996 Cab, it was first gear for about ten miles as the road was built with a lot of boulders
Colorado_Soanish_Peaks_07.09.14-7
http://flic.kr/p/oDSofK

The Cayenne would have been far more desirable.

Second, the Cayenne Turbo had great power, and would pull my 25 footer easily... About 6,000 pounds but required monitoring of the hills, even on the Interstate so as to avoid the constant shifting fifth to sixth and back.

The downside of the Cayenne was the poor fuel mileage and short travel range. What precipitated selling was this was a time when premium fuel could not be purchased at a lot of stations as we had a severe fuel shortage. Also, the seat height above the road was not very high, relative to a 4 x 4 Dodge which requires a step ladder....LOL....but once in the seat the view is great.

Cost was not really a consideration at this time but I got caught out on the road more than once when I had to wait in line to purchase premium fuel.

In conclusion, I would suggest the amount of miles one is planning on towing would be a big factor in the choice of a TV. Once I purchased my Dodge, I towed the first two AS about 40,000 miles around the U.S., and did it with more ease than if I would have been in the Cayenne. Maybe those who tow for short trips would find the Cayenne desirable, but in a 600 plus mile day this is a fuel stop every 200 miles. Whatever trips your trigger will be the ultimate factor, however.

Be well...


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Old 11-23-2014, 11:47 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Msmoto View Post
Re: my 2005 Porsche Cayenne Turbo.... First, the Cayenne Turbo is the ultimate touring car, IMO. Extremely quick, excellent handling, and can go on mountain roads with ease. For example, on this road in my 996 Cab, it was first gear for about ten miles as the road was built with a lot of boulders
Colorado_Soanish_Peaks_07.09.14-7
http://flic.kr/p/oDSofK

The Cayenne would have been far more desirable.

Second, the Cayenne Turbo had great power, and would pull my 25 footer easily... About 6,000 pounds but required monitoring of the hills, even on the Interstate so as to avoid the constant shifting fifth to sixth and back.

The downside of the Cayenne was the poor fuel mileage and short travel range. What precipitated selling was this was a time when premium fuel could not be purchased at a lot of stations as we had a severe fuel shortage. Also, the seat height above the road was not very high, relative to a 4 x 4 Dodge which requires a step ladder....LOL....but once in the seat the view is great.

Cost was not really a consideration at this time but I got caught out on the road more than once when I had to wait in line to purchase premium fuel.

In conclusion, I would suggest the amount of miles one is planning on towing would be a big factor in the choice of a TV. Once I purchased my Dodge, I towed the first two AS about 40,000 miles around the U.S., and did it with more ease than if I would have been in the Cayenne. Maybe those who tow for short trips would find the Cayenne desirable, but in a 600 plus mile day this is a fuel stop every 200 miles. Whatever trips your trigger will be the ultimate factor, however.

Be well...


Ms Tommie Lauer
Greensboro, NC
2015 Serenity 30 RB / 2008 Dodge Cummins 4 X 4
WBCCI #4165 AIR #31871
Thanx for the additional info Tommie.

So were you not able to put the Cayenne's Tiptronic transmission in manual mode to prevent this down shifting problem you mentioned?

Or did Porsche forget to reprogram the engine computer for the tow option settings?

I know several folks out here in SoCal who tow racer & AX cars & boats & TTs who haven't mentioned this 5th/6th shifting issue, except for one guy's customer who added an aftermarket non-factory hitch & didn't do the engine/trans reprogramming.

Also for me, my bladder range is the limiting factor.....not fuel!

Our `88 Westy got 18-22 on the hwy with an 18 gal tank, so math was usually 175-200 between fuel stops, but that was regular gas too - so a bit cheaper & not limited for premium availability.

Unfortunately we can't fit the full size pickups like your Dodge in our driveway as a permanent solution, but we've had the 2500 gas 5.7 & 6.3? 3/4 ton Ram 2500 rentals now - way too high for us too ...

... plus my wife won't drive them, so we need to stick with the mid-size SUVs with a V8 gas or V6TDI like the Cayenne, Taureg, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, ford Explorer or Dodge Durango/Chrysler Aspen size.

Most of our trips now are 4-8 hours towing, but a crosscountry to your state to visit our daughter & family in Asheville isn't out of the question one retired.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:07 AM   #49
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Having owned a 928 S and needed to have the first dual-clutch replaced after 750 miles of babied break-in driving, then constantly after. Having the engine belts just decide to scramble themselves at about 4K miles, Heads lift off, black box go out, etc,etc. I finally just parked the damn beautiful thing as every time I drove it something seemed to self-destruct. It was the 3rd and last Porsche I ever wanted to own. There was a balance harmony problem in the driveshaft between the front engine and rear transaxele on the first ones that just shook the clutches apart, (at $1700 a pop).
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Old 11-24-2014, 04:43 AM   #50
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In 2008 I do not remember any reprogramming that was available for the Turbo. And if I tried the manual mode, it apparently did not satisfy me. The early Cayennes had other problems as well, lots of electrical issues and this was one more factor in my decision.

The one trip when I tried three gas stations, ultimately waiting about thirty minutes in line for premium, was so frustrating it may have tripped my trigger enough to make me sell the Cayenne.

The inability to carry a generator for boon-docking was a factor as well. In fact my pickup bed is filled with generator, various tools, large ground pads, hoses, steps, and other useful stuff when traveling, so this was another factor.

It may be the newer versions with transmission programming options, may be much improved for towing. And, bladder breaks, well, any exit or entrance ramp, rest area..... That is why I like to have my own bathroom along.......LOL


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Old 11-24-2014, 01:36 PM   #51
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I know you weren't considering new Cayenne's but it's worth noting that the new S is now TT V6. The only V8 they have left is the "Turbo". To me the "older" V8 S was fun on the streets where you could 'ring it out' a bit but the torque comes on pretty late for towing...somewhere around 3.5K-4K RPM. It's flat from there, but unimpressive at low rpms. Forced induction REALLY helps in this respect, especially for towing where you don't want to have to be running at 3.5-4K to get mass moving.....which kills real world gas consumption. For comparison, I rarely have EVER even driven past 4K RPM while towing, even on hills. Typically, its practically idling in 8th while towing at highway speeds. My 3.0T has a practically flat torque curve from as low as ~2000rpm. FI's also help in the higher elevations

That new Cayenne TTV6 S will be on my short when I go shopping for my next tow vehicle, if I decide to stay with a petrol. Diesel is VERY close in pricing to regular petrol here, while premium is 10-15 cents more. Diesel makes a lot of sense in Canada, especially for towing, but petrol engines are more fun when you're not towing
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:04 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Roadster View Post
Having owned a 928 S and needed to have the first dual-clutch replaced after 750 miles of babied break-in driving, then constantly after. Having the engine belts just decide to scramble themselves at about 4K miles, Heads lift off, black box go out, etc,etc. I finally just parked the damn beautiful thing as every time I drove it something seemed to self-destruct. It was the 3rd and last Porsche I ever wanted to own. There was a balance harmony problem in the driveshaft between the front engine and rear transaxele on the first ones that just shook the clutches apart, (at $1700 a pop).
Kenny (30 roadster)
Kenny,

I'd seen the early manual transaxle problems when I was looking at 928s, but it wasn't a concern since we wanted the auto anyway. The torque tubes were also an area to need maintenance, and that could cause the harmony problem from what I've read.

It sounds like yours was an early `83-84-ish 928S with the 4.7L 16v V7 that had that gorgeous octopus-like induction on the top?

It also sounds like a problem 928, perhaps where the POs hadn't maintained them & only driven them to death then sell.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:11 PM   #53
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Cayenne Turbo Story

OK, if we are talking about the Cayenne, here is one of my best stories....hopefully the statute of limitations is up...LOL.

I am driving north on I-25 near Walsenburg, Colorado, at maybe 75-80 mph. A big diesel dually comes by, three people hanging out the window as my Cayenne had "Model designation delete" as one of the options, so it did not say anything on the back. Then they hammered down on their big dually, and left in a hurry.

So, I caught them when they were back down to about 80 mph, pulled into the left lane, smiled and pushed the accelerator to the floor. The Cayenne Turbo moves quickly to about 130 mph, still 35 mph to go, but I back off and wait, pretty soon here they come again all with the biggest grin on their faces one could imagine.

Ah yes, i do love driving in the wide open spaces.......
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Old 11-24-2014, 07:49 PM   #54
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There is no towing specific programing for the engine or transmission control units, the tow package on any cayenne is a control module for the lighting that I will code into the vehicle and that is all. You must still provide your own brake controller. The fifth to sixth hunting is normal, especially on a turbo as they have a higher final gear. The biggest problem with the aisin transmission is the hard 2-3 shift caused by a worn valvebody, this will damage the transmission, and requires a new valvebody to correct until that also wears.
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Old 11-24-2014, 08:16 PM   #55
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You referring to older Aisin 6 speed Tip? How have the 8 speeds been?
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Old 11-24-2014, 08:28 PM   #56
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Not as many problems so far, but these have programable control units, we've had a number of software updates for them, We have had to replace nearly every transfer case though, through customer complaint or service action.
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