how much wiggle room is in...

[mack-in-nc]

the various 'you can tow this' ratings?

My RV books all say that you do not exceed the GVWR. If it is 9300 lbs and you try pulling 9350, you are in deep do-do.

Okay but my Airstream book, "Airstream the History of the Land Yacht' by Bryan Burkhart and David Hunt shows Airstreams being towed by all sorts of vehicles...mostly mid size sedans, station wagons and pickup trucks of the 50s and early 60s (when most of the photos in this book were taken) but also, very early in the book, what appears to be a 19 footer or so being towed by what appears to be a 10 speed english bicycle of what we used to call the 'racer' type!" Now I am sure this was a stunt of some sort, but it does make me wonder..are Airstreams easier to tow that other trailers of the same size or is it that you truly can exceed the GVWR, even if it is not a great idea?

[Minno]

We were amazed when we towed our AS home from Mississippi how absolutely wonderfully she towed compared to our box trailers. My dad had always said that airstreams towed better than any other. They had also towed many box trailers over the years. We had always thought, yeah right. But it's true. That being said, we would never go over the GVWR of our TV. In fact, we make sure we are BELOW it when we buy. We towed a box trailer with something very close to GVWR once and it was not a good experience. Very hard to handle, underpowered on hills, forget about mountains. I don't know if it's different with AS, and I don't want to find out!

Kay

[moosetags]

There is some 'wiggle room' when it come to towing capacities. Realistic towing capacities can sometimes be enhanced with various combinations of suspension upgrades and sophisticated hitch systems.

You mention seeing pictures of older Airstreams being towed by standard sedans of the day. There were two dynamics at play. The vintage Airstreams are significantly lighter per foot than the late model ones. The standard sedans of the 50's were body-on- frame vehicles which were better for towing than today's unibody sedans.

Brian

[ROBERT CROSS]

Ok....I won't bite on this one, let the Canadians handle it.

Bob

[noreen&sal]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Ok....I won't bite on this one, let the Canadians handle it.

Bob

You did it again. You said it all. Sal.

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by mack-in-nc

the various 'you can tow this' ratings?

My RV books all say that you do not exceed the GVWR. If it is 9300 lbs and you try pulling 9350, you are in deep do-do.

Okay but my Airstream book, "Airstream the History of the Land Yacht' by Bryan Burkhart and David Hunt shows Air streams being towed by all sorts of vehicles...mostly mid size sedans, station wagons and pickup trucks of the 50s and early 60s (when most of the photos in this book were taken) but also, very early in the book, what appears to be a 19 footer or so being towed by what appears to be a 10 speed english bicycle of what we used to call the 'racer' type!" Now I am sure this was a stunt of some sort, but it does make me wonder..are Airstreams easier to tow that other trailers of the same size or is it that you truly can exceed the GVWR, even if it is not a great idea?

GVRW = the weight of the tow vehicle + all things inside the tow vehicle + the weight of the trailer's tongue on the tow vehicle. (it does not include the total weight of the trailer, only the tongue weight)

The towing capacity of the tow vehicle is not the same thing as GVWR.
Towing capacity is shown by the GCRW.

The GVRW on my TV is 7,000 lbs.
The GVRW on my trailer is approximately 7,400 lbs.
The GCRW on my TV is 15,000 lbs (gross combined weight of tow vehicle + trailer + all load) . The combined weight rating is not listed on the plaque at the door opening, but it is listed in the owners' manual. This rating varies with the options included on each vehicle.

[dkottum]

GVWR is a joke and that's why half the answers are jokes.

Some can wreck a rig at half GVWR and others can go safely forever at double.

Proper setup, adjust driving to conditions and load, and common sense (the hard one) are more important. If you can't get these right, GVWR makes no difference.

doug k

[barts]

Tow ratings are awkward; they reflect a combination of many factors, some of which may not apply to you (acceptable performance climbing hills, for example) and others which are simple physics.

In general, the larger the tow rating, the less you'll notice your trailer behind you .

Can you pull more than rated? Certainly. Can you do so safely? It depends. If you're unsure, I'd definitely talk to someone who understands towing and your vehicle.

For example - your vehicle may have two ore more different tow ratings depending on rear axle ratio. Here, this a big clue that the concern is with engine & transmission load, not vehicle stability or overall braking.
If you're towing in the flats, you can certainly fudge the numbers a little. If you're camping in the Rockies, some caution is in order.

So - the answer is: it depends.

- Bart

[starcraft]

say's 350 tounge or 3500 pounds, with equalizer hitch 500 or 5000 lbs. While my truck is only rated 3500 with 5sp and 5000 with automatic. So I think my truck can do it safely maybe damage manual transmission or shorten life. Just hitched it up and seems to do fine job on $20 ball mount. Do you think going over hitch weight 100 pounds will do any harm to hidden hitch receiver.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Star,

Probably not....have you gone the scales to make sure of your weights?
WD?

Bob

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Ok....I won't bite on this one, let the Canadians handle it.

Bob

Aye, Canadian here!

Mack in nc.......

In the 60's my Dad had an RV sales business and the company's TV was a 1964 Dodge Polara which was a uni-body.
It had a custom receiver installed by the local welding shop,
used an Equalizer WDH,
and he towed numberous TT's all over NA
a tire upgrade was made to improve performance.
No issues!

I have a 2003 Infiniti Sedan which is a uni-body.
It has a custom receiver designed and installed by Can Am Rv,
a Reese Dual Cam WDH,
Stock, OEM tires,
and we tow a good size Airstream.
No issues!

Note by comparison the Infiniti out performed the Dodge any way you want to compare, including when used as a TV. Whatever you tow with if it is connected appropriately and within the capabilities of the vehicle it works.

Note: The V8 Dodge was getting long on the tooth when it was 3 years old / 85,000 miles.

The V6 Infiniti is now 10 years old, has 120,000 miles on it and runs like new. It has 200 hrs of towing on it. The plan is to use it for many years to come.

The magic is the well known towing specialist here in Ontario. Our car has no factory tow pkg. They installed normal stuff like Jordan brake controller, large tranny cooler, and the all important "custom reciever". The Reese dual cam works great. The car is stock otherwise. The drive train is working fine today even with all the towing.

When you do the reaseach and have professionals to work with the puzzle pieces go together.

[JackMac]

Hello Everyone,

The bottom line is not if the tow vehicle is capable, it is a liability issue. If the combined loaded weight is over the limit and there is an accident, you know who will be blamed. It would also let the insurance company off the hook and open lawsuits.

[Bruce B]

Originally Posted by JackMac

Hello Everyone,

The bottom line is not if the tow vehicle is capable, it is a liability issue. If the combined loaded weight is over the limit and there is an accident, you know who will be blamed. It would also let the insurance company off the hook and open lawsuits.

+1
Remember this the USA. Liability is everything....
That being stated, one of my personal "life lessons" has been that just because it can does not mean it is good to do it.....
It is always nice to have something in reserve, whether it is suspension or brakes, chassis or engine a little left over is nice.
Bruce

[ROBERT CROSS]

RR,

Thank's...I can see Canada from my kitchen window.

Bob

[arcamedies]

Originally Posted by mack-in-nc

the various 'you can tow this' ratings?

My RV books all say that you do not exceed the GVWR. If it is 9300 lbs and you try pulling 9350, you are in deep do-do.

Okay but my Airstream book, "Airstream the History of the Land Yacht' by Bryan Burkhart and David Hunt shows Airstreams being towed by all sorts of vehicles...mostly mid size sedans, station wagons and pickup trucks of the 50s and early 60s (when most of the photos in this book were taken) but also, very early in the book, what appears to be a 19 footer or so being towed by what appears to be a 10 speed english bicycle of what we used to call the 'racer' type!" Now I am sure this was a stunt of some sort, but it does make me wonder..are Airstreams easier to tow that other trailers of the same size or is it that you truly can exceed the GVWR, even if it is not a great idea?

Manufacturers put a lot of time and effort to outline what their vehicles can do under IDEAL circumstances, ie, no headwind, no hills, vehicle in optimum conditions . An overweight vehicle handles differently in an emergancy manuver, or panic stopping downhill with a tailwind on rough roads . And all the above is why the old rule of thumb "be at 80% of the vehicle capability and you'll love it". Don't and under the wrong circumstances it can be verly ugly .

Happy Towing

[n8andm]

Keep in mind the average freeway/ hwy speeds weren't 80mph back in the day those pictures were taken.

[Garfield]

Well here's my 2 CDN cents. It appears to me manufacturers design vehicles (both TV's and RV's) structure/axles/tires to a pre-determined maximum LOAD rating, which in fact is the GVWR on your door sticker. That's why all of the road regulations in North America that I've seen are built around GVehicleWR and GAxleWR. Aside from the safety factor alone, neither of these weights should be exceeded if for no other reason than it's simply illegal to do so.

The tow rating, typically derived by subtracting the vehicles curb weight from the GCombinedVWR, is a manufacturers recommended maximum towing weight (which includes passengers and cargo in the TV). This is not a legal rating but rather a rating that tries to ensure minimum performance expectations are met, and one that the manufactures can support with it's warranty program.

When a manufacture establishes a tow rating for a vehicle there must be a tug of war between the marketing department (where higher is always better) and risk management that is responsible for protecting the manufacturer from lawsuits of all types, be it from accidents to class-actions suits based on premature component failure. Risk will factor in the lowest common denominator -- e.g. how high can the tow rating be set before the average uninformed, inexperienced owner gets into trouble. Consequently I expect the tow rating is somewhat conservative in most cases.

Therefore the manufacturer's to rating is not so much a hard limit that must never be exceeded under any circumstances, but more of a manufactures recommended guideline that implies "exceed at your own risk".

For the average do-it-yourselfer I would certainly recommend staying within the manufacturers tow rating. But if you're prepared to educate yourself and seek out expert advice, tow ratings can be safely exceeded...up to a point. But there will be a cost such as increased maintenance, and it's possible you may void the manufacturer's warranty depending on the circumstances.

Folks often bring up the liability issue but I don't see what tow-rating weights have to do with it anything -- if you're at fault, you're at fault no matter whether you're over or under the tow rating weight. Your insurance co. can't walk away because no laws were being broken. If you're consciously towing over GVWR that's another matter entirely.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

[Protagonist]

There's a trick in the ratings that you need to be aware of:
As others have pointed out, maximum trailer weight equals GCWR minus tow vehicle's actual curb weight. So far, so good. Now the trick, the trailer's tongue weight counts toward the tow vehicle's curb weight, because it bears on the tow vehicle's suspension. Total weight of tow vehicle, all of its passengers, fluids, and contents, and the trailer's tongue weight, should not exceed the GVWR. If you take your trailer to public scales, and weigh one axle at a time, the trailer's tongue weight shows up as part of the weight on the tow vehicle's rear axle.

[ROBERT CROSS]

"....... It appears to me manufacturers design vehicles (both TV's and RV's) structure/axles/tires to a pre-determined maximum LOAD rating, which in fact is the GVWR on your door sticker."

Not necessarily so...at least not at Airstream.
Here is the weight & spec sheet from our Classic.

Notice the GVWR of the trailer and the weight rating of each axle.....

Bob

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by Garfield

Well here's my 2 CDN cents. It appears to me manufacturers design vehicles (both TV's and RV's) structure/axles/tires to a pre-determined maximum LOAD rating, which in fact is the GVWR on your door sticker. That's why all of the road regulations in North America that I've seen are built around GVehicleWR and GAxleWR. Aside from the safety factor alone, neither of these weights should be exceeded if for no other reason than it's simply illegal to do so.

The tow rating, typically derived by subtracting the vehicles curb weight from the GCombinedVWR, is a manufacturers recommended maximum towing weight (which includes passengers and cargo in the TV). This is not a legal rating but rather a rating that tries to ensure minimum performance expectations are met, and one that the manufactures can support with it's warranty program.

When a manufacture establishes a tow rating for a vehicle there must be a tug of war between the marketing department (where higher is always better) and risk management that is responsible for protecting the manufacturer from lawsuits of all types, be it from accidents to class-actions suits based on premature component failure. Risk will factor in the lowest common denominator -- e.g. how high can the tow rating be set before the average uninformed, inexperienced owner gets into trouble. Consequently I expect the tow rating is somewhat conservative in most cases.

Therefore the manufacturer's to rating is not so much a hard limit that must never be exceeded under any circumstances, but more of a manufactures recommended guideline that implies "exceed at your own risk".

For the average do-it-yourselfer I would certainly recommend staying within the manufacturers tow rating. But if you're prepared to educate yourself and seek out expert advice, tow ratings can be safely exceeded...up to a point. But there will be a cost such as increased maintenance, and it's possible you may void the manufacturer's warranty depending on the circumstances.

Folks often bring up the liability issue but I don't see what tow-rating weights have to do with it anything -- if you're at fault, you're at fault no matter whether you're over or under the tow rating weight. Your insurance co. can't walk away because no laws were being broken. If you're consciously towing over GVWR that's another matter entirely.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Gary,

That was a well reasoned piece and I especially liked the advice regarding DIY or getting a professional to set you up, and the bit about liability; very wise indeed.

I was having a look at the GVWR rules earlier today and you're right that Canadian Provinces use it as the point at which they'd consider you overloaded. Curiously, I don't think it's actually illegal to run over GVWR (or GAVR for that matter) but a Police Officer can decide that you're a danger and he or she will use the GVWR as the main point of reference. Of course, private vehicles are of little interest to the law makers as they have their sights fixed firmly on commercial operators, so unless you are obviously overloaded, it's unlikely that you'll get pulled over.

It would be nice to think that there was some nice simple method, perhaps based on vehicle weight, by which manufacturers arrived at tow ratings but sadly that's not the case. Tow ratings are decided using factors such as customer demand, the needs of the marketing department and what the competition are doing rather than any mathematical or scientific method. Certainly vehicles are tested once the ratings are set, but it's all to do with sales; if you must have ratings figures then GAWRs are more pertinent. A good example of the way tow ratings are set is the minivan market. The current tow rating of 3,500lb is common across all manufacturers and hasn't changed in 40 years, despite the vans being completely different beasts to their predecessors. But the likes of Honda and Toyota are not going to encourage you to tow with a minivan, even though you could, when you can go out and buy a high-margin pick up as well as having the minivan to run the kids to school; it's just not in their interests to do anything else.

Anyway, your advice is good, which is the main thing.