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Old 07-04-2008, 01:02 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by canadianguy View Post
What transmission is in the Roadmaster? Please don't tell me it's the 700R4.

From 94-96 the 4L60E, which is what I have. I believe the TBI cars had the 700R4. Motor=LT1. Yeah baby.
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Old 07-04-2008, 08:37 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by mrmossyone
From 94-96 the 4L60E, which is what I have. I believe the TBI cars had the 700R4. Motor=LT1. Yeah baby.
I looked at one last week, I thought it might be good as a backup tow vehicle. It was a '92, with the TBI Chevrolet 5.7, leather seats (cracked) extra seat in the hole in the back, and a "towing package", which consisted of a 1" trailer hitch receiver. 168,000+miles. It was white, with wood grain. I passed on it, even though the body was perfect, and it ran great, with cold air conditioning. The seller indicated he'd take $2000 for it. If anyone is interested, I can put you in touch with him.
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Old 07-05-2008, 10:03 AM   #101
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As an owner of a 2003 Honda Odyssey and I would never consider hooking up any kind of trailer over 2,000 pounds to it. for one thing the rear end with just six passengers and luggage makes it sag. I can't imagine it with a RV hooked to it. Granted the engine is rated a 260 horses but that power is only achievied at high rpm's probably at 4000 rpm
I would like to see some pictures from the Canadian dealer who is setting up the Hondas to tow. I want to see how level the load is.
My heart goes out to the the Canadian family who had the Rv accident in VA.
Some on here mention and brag about how small of a vehicle they can tow a large airstream with. To me its all about safety, confidence in well maintained equipment and why I choose to use a 2500 series truck for towing. I believe it is gross negligence and a danger to others to tow a camper that exceeds the tow weight specified by the TV manufacturer.
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Old 07-05-2008, 12:00 PM   #102
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As an owner of a 2003 Honda Odyssey and I would never consider hooking up any kind of trailer over 2,000 pounds to it. for one thing the rear end with just six passengers and luggage makes it sag. I can't imagine it with a RV hooked to it. Granted the engine is rated a 260 horses but that power is only achievied at high rpm's probably at 4000 rpm
I would like to see some pictures from the Canadian dealer who is setting up the Hondas to tow. I want to see how level the load is.
My heart goes out to the the Canadian family who had the Rv accident in VA.
Some on here mention and brag about how small of a vehicle they can tow a large airstream with. To me its all about safety, confidence in well maintained equipment and why I choose to use a 2500 series truck for towing. I believe it is gross negligence and a danger to others to tow a camper that exceeds the tow weight specified by the TV manufacturer.
Everyone has an opinion. Some of your information is wrong however. Also vehicles can be modified to handle more weight and a weight distribution system will keep the vehicle level not the shocks and springs on the van, which can also be replaced with heavier duty ones. If I use a vehicle that has been professionally modified to handle 10,000 lbs but the manufacturer says only 3500 am I still being grossly negligent?
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Old 07-05-2008, 12:08 PM   #103
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Without a doubt YES you would be considered as NEGLIGENT. And if you had an accident and hurt someone else you would more than likely face possible criminal & civil charges if you faced a savvy prosecutor who dug into the accident details. I don't see how you might be able to wiggle out of not being considered negligent if you are knowingly exceeding the TV maximum tow and gross weight ratings.
Plus, one man's interpretation of "professionally done" doesn't prove that just because Joe's RV shop has a state business license and they fabbed up some custom springs and shocks your Honda accord can now tow 10,000 pounds safely.
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Old 07-05-2008, 01:20 PM   #104
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Without a doubt YES you would be considered as NEGLIGENT
Cite a case please, to support the claim of negligence. Cite a law, please, to support the claim of criminal charges.

For that matter, cite a case where an overloaded RV was involved in a crash where the actual final investigation determined that the cause of the crash was exceeding GCWR or even GVWR or even GAWR.

Why is there such vehemence making assertions that have absolutely no foundation?

As we are seeing in the latest crash to be celebrated by the FUD Mongerers, things are not so simple as they seem. Just saying something is so does not make it so, even if its an LEO saying it. -> downhill, long day, bad weather, speeding up and passing RV crashed and then trying to blame that crash on exceeding, perhaps, the GCWR ?? sorry, doesn't past any reasonable muster.

What we do have is first hand reports of many tens of thousands of miles of satisfactory experience. For anyone who doesn't have a non rational agenda, that should say much more about safety than FUD mongering about things that don't actually exist in reality. What is the problem with actual experience, anyway?
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Old 07-05-2008, 01:59 PM   #105
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and what is the problem with LEAVING terms like...

vehemence, mongerers and non-rational agenda OUT of the exchange....

unless the goal IS to cultivate like worded personal counter attacks?

good grief, dial back the verbal GARBAGE folks.

i read PLENTY of 'actual users' here, suggesting NOT to exceed the ratings of the tv in question.

and exactly as this side of the experience equation IS being ignored,

so would providing reports of cases, claims and settlements regarding negligence...

'yes but' till it's coming out your receiver, as is the pattern now.

and instead of asking for proof that will just be ignored, PROVIDE some....

for example "cite" one shop, one dealer, one hitch vendor, one hitch manufacturer or ONE vehicle OR rv maker....

who DOES these modifications in nevada or ne other state...

for that matter cite ONE u.s. company in the business,

who will endorse, warrant or otherwise support these mods, EVEN if done outside the usa?

like others 'hooked by the troll' shantz has a an opinion and apparently owns a 'da minivan...

his/her messsage and points are just as valid as anything else in this thread...

mongering and vehemence and agendas aside.

cheers
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Old 07-05-2008, 02:02 PM   #106
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Let's keep this discussion on track with the following TOW VEHICLE scenario Leipper. WE don't celebrate accidents here we are trying to help people be safe and use common sense which seems to be in short supply on the highways.
This is from Mrmossyone's email reply to my post where we are discussing a small to midsize vehicle with a Manufacturers maximum tow rating of of 3,500# and it has been modified to tow 10,000#. Let's continue to use the Honda Odyssey as our example vehicle and is has been modified as stated
"If I use a vehicle that has been professionally modified to handle 10,000 lbs but the manufacturer says only 3500 am I still being grossly negligent?"

Now you in your modfied Honda Odyssey pulling 10,000# have just had an accident with another vehicle in which it was your fault and the people are badly hurt.

Call your insurance agent and ask him if you are still covered by your policy since you willingly modified a vehicle that was only rated for 3,500# towing and you were actually pulling 10,000# when the accident occurred.

Call any defense attorney and ask him his opinion given the same exact scenario and details. If he says you would be ok, hire him.
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Old 07-05-2008, 02:21 PM   #107
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the 3,500 up to 10,000 example is extreme to the point of absurdity...

which may be the point.

since to make THAT degree of vehicle changes would expensive, and an elaborate structural and parts effort.

(lets assume a jailed engineer somewhere does the math and signs off of the theoretical 10,000 lb capacity)

the 'rating' has not been changed and the vehicle manufacturer nor ANY of the parts makers will give it a new rating...

we do live in a world where product insurance vendors, like auto insurance providers,

have LONG covered careless, intoxicated and grossly negligent policy holders...

but there are $$ policy limits and a NEW growing list of exclusions...

for example, if the modified tv is used for criminal activity, transporting BOMBS, terrorism or acts of war....

coverage may not apply.

so many insurance companies are moving toward a reduced list of coverage scenarios...

but it's doubtful STUPID can be defined or excluded.

but i'm gonna contact my insurance company monday and REQUEST that ALL monger-ers be dropped...

fish, cheese, conspiracy, hate, and safety fanatics be warned!

cheers
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Old 07-05-2008, 03:25 PM   #108
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Wow, what a thread!

Guess I'l be adding "tow vehicle capacity" to the list of things not to talk about in mixed company... along with religion & politics...

What a terrible accident for those folks. My heart goes out to the two girls who survived. Going to be real tough for them loosing their parents and sister.

I wonder if they used any kind of equilization/weight distribution hitch while towing their trailer? Might of prevented the subsequent loss of control. So sad...
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Old 07-05-2008, 03:54 PM   #109
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I would gladly tow 10,000lbs with a modified Odessey if I saw an engineer's stamp and signature at the bottom of a piece of paper that said it was capable of doing so safely and reliably. It's just that different people have different expectations of reliability and safety.

Ratings set a demarcation of responsibility. Basically the manfacturer is saying if you maintain this and that regulary, keep these fluids topped up, you can expect this vehicle to last (insert warranty period here) while not exceeding this towing limit.

Lets put it this way, if your transmission dies in the warranty period of the vehicle, and you've towed twice the maximum towing capacity with the vehicle, would you be upfront about it with the manufacturer? If the manufacturer refused warranty coverage based on that fact, would you expect a court to side with you?

Would you feel safe hanging off a cliff on a rope rated for half your weight? (Actually you probably should because the typical safety factor for ropes is about 10.)

Would you feel safe in an airplane with a landing gear rated for half the plane's weight? (You probably shouldn't, because the factor of safety in modern commercial aircraft is about 2.)

I'll iterate again that I'm not saying you can't over the rated capacity of the tow vehicle. Minimize the amount by which you do so, and set reasonable expectations for performance and reliability, and have enough cash with you to replace an engine and transmission.

Sure, accidents can happen to anybody, but it's best not to go golfing in a thunderstorm.
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:59 PM   #110
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I'm sure aircreek got more than bargained for when s/he made his/her first and only post to begin this thread. I'm sure s/he just wanted some simple, honest advice and did not intend to start the sort of thread this has become. I see that aircreek has not made another post on the forum since, and frankly, I can't say as I blame him/her. I'd be scared away, too.
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:48 PM   #111
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I see that aircreek has not made another post on the forum since, and frankly, I can't say as I blame him/her. I'd be scared away, too.
I can't blame them either. I think we've managed to beat this subject into the ground, and no one is going to change anyone's mind, everyone seems to have their own opinion, and that's it. If John Doe wants to tow a Classic with a Mini Cooper, he will, and if Richard Roe wants to tow a Bubble with an F550, HE will.
While mostly everyone has been mostly civil, the arguments are becoming circular and repetitive. So unless someone comes up with definitive information with verifiable specifics of whether a specific vehicle should or should not be used to tow a specific trailer, I'd strongly suggest we turn our energies to other matters.
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:23 PM   #112
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and what is the problem with LEAVING terms like... vehemence, mongerers and non-rational agenda OUT of the exchange.... unless the goal IS to cultivate like worded personal counter attacks?
Yes, let's shoot the messenger, what say? What I provided is a description of the messages I quoted that lend to such things as "be scared away, too" - how else are we going to understand what is chasing people away if we do not take note of it?

Why attack making note of these things rather than the actual expression? The implication is that it is OK to be vehement (shouting like with caps), fear mongering (asserting dire results for which you have no evidence or sound rationale), asserting things that don't exist, and so on. Is that really what makes for a good conversation and profitable discussion?

Shouldn't we all be concerned about vehemence, irrationality, fud mongering, and lack of data or support for supposed assertions (as contrasted to opinions) rather than attempting to squash anyone who notices such things?

How can you respond to such presentations other than to take note that they really aren't helpful and why? What do you do when the hijack a thread? What is the result?

Quote:
i read PLENTY of 'actual users' here, suggesting NOT to exceed the ratings of the tv in question.
And we also have folks with direct personal experience who are being shouted out of the discussion. Is that not a concern? We have seen where ratings have little to do with engineering and we have also had offered that a rating is not the same as a limit. But these don't seem to fit the paradigm of the most vehement here so they get blown off the table with the many other pertinent factors.

There is a plea for common sense but just look at the 'opinions' of folks who have no experience with the factors involved in the question at issue. Where is that common sense in predicting that insurance companies will do what they have not so far? that exceeding GCWR causes accidents (try to describe the mechanism for this), that a number on a sheet of paper with a signature is to be preferred over actual in the seat experience?

Quote:
small to midsize vehicle with a Manufacturers maximum tow rating of of 3,500# and it has been modified to tow 10,000#
a mid seventies sovereign doesn't weigh anywhere near that much. Even a recent 28' slideout doesn't weigh that much. We can now add yet another to panoply of known disreputable debate methods tossed in here.

I have no problem with opinions that an Ody is perhaps a bit of a mismatch with a 7200# GVWR trailer. I do have a problem with inserting dire warnings that have no foundation, facts not in evidence, and the kinds of jumping to conclusion that can be seen in this discussion. These things do not lead to productive discourse.

I do have a problem with the shoving off the table of the many relevant issues and factors that have been mentioned in this thread, the invoking of Godwin's law and irrelevant crashes and the other things that I have noted.

As for something to consider: what does happen when you overload a vehicle or tow something that is really too heavy? What will the driver experience? What impact will it have on the equipment? How can a driver tell when a bit extra is a bit too much? What is going to go first and when? How is handling affected? What are the margins built into ratings? What are the assumptions being made? What are the conditions considered?

Shall I tell stories? They certainly wouldn't fit the predicted scenarios of doom and gloom.
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