|
|
07-01-2008, 09:11 AM
|
#81
|
Rivet Master
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
|
Quote:
a heavier vehicle can control a trailer better than a smaller vehicle as well as minimize the push/pull from causing major problems
|
This is one reason why the rear overhang distance and wheelbase mentions were pertinent. Mass is only one factor. When combined with velocity to get inertia you get back to that concept of avoiding sudden emergency maneuvers. This is also why CanAm is so strong on suspension and tires and wheels as they, along with proper hitch selection, can have a significant impact on handling.
For those following the relative mass line of rebuttal I suggest taking it to an extreme. Look at the problems encountered with very light and small trailers. One of the best sway essays I have seen was on a pop-up tent trailer website.
The lesson is that you cannot depend upon mass alone for salvation in your towing rig. Wheelbase, overhang, suspension, and many other factors are just as important in being able to control your rig down the road.
and when you start talking abnormal circumstances, you can go to any extreme you want without gaining insight into any rational conclusion. When that meteor strikes it makes no difference what rig you are driving.
Quote:
Heat isn't the only thing that destroys a transmission
|
but it is the factor most cited and why so many threads talk about transmission coolers and temperature gauges. What I get from this is that other sources of problems fall into the meteorite risk category as far as traumatic occurrence odds.
The key here is that heavy loads do create a need for an aggressive maintenance program. That is true no matter whether overloaded or not.
There are some who will assert that running any big heavy RV down the road is a "lousy idea" but it seems we do it anyway. Most of us, by making our own choices, have decided that types of RV we did not choose are a "lousy idea" too. I think we should be careful to avoid confusing our preferences with rationalizations and allow others to have their own view of things.
|
|
|
07-01-2008, 09:16 AM
|
#82
|
Rivet Master
1975 Argosy 26
1963 24' Tradewind
Seattle
, Washington
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,341
|
Yes, terrible crash.. but, this reads like any other crash.. doesn't have to be a Durango... locally, take your pic on I 5.. I came upon a F350 that flipped towing a large toy hauler... also stories in the forums of (ice induced) F350 jackknifing and flipping... or just recently, a F250 and a 22ft Argosy...
Personally, I'd like a close to the ground CG with a long wheelbase anyday.
Again, I'd love to test a Dodge Magnum ... but I digress!
I'd like pics of the NY Oddy and AS! Again, somebody is doing it!
Marc
|
|
|
07-01-2008, 10:04 AM
|
#83
|
2 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Red Deer
, Alberta
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 36
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
The key here is that heavy loads do create a need for an aggressive maintenance program. That is true no matter whether overloaded or not.
|
You can only fix so much with maintenance. You can't undo the fact that you are putting higher specific loads on metal parts, and changing the oil doesn't magically undo the fatigue history of the metal parts bathed in that oil. The only solution is to reduce the strain in the metal by distributing the force over a larger area. Manufacturerer's decide on a "reasonable service life" and "reasonable load" and design their parts to last that time with a hopefully low probability of failure. If you overload something you can always expect a less than reasonable service life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
There are some who will assert that running any big heavy RV down the road is a "lousy idea" but it seems we do it anyway. Most of us, by making our own choices, have decided that types of RV we did not choose are a "lousy idea" too. I think we should be careful to avoid confusing our preferences with rationalizations and allow others to have their own view of things.
|
That's taking what I said way out of context. I said exceding the manufacturer's maximum limit was a lousy idea, and it is.
|
|
|
07-01-2008, 10:33 AM
|
#84
|
Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
St. Catharines
, South Western Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,367
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadianguy
You can only cure so much with proper cooling. Heat isn't the only thing that destroys a transmission. Excessive time in lower gears, frequent shifting, high radial loads on the bearings.
There's a big difference between 250HP in an Honda Odessey and 250 HP in a truck. Bigger displacement, lower RPM, lower piston speeds and accelerations, and don't forget to compare the size of the radiator cooling the thing. Go up a hill and you lose speed induced airflow through the radiator, so you need a large radiator and fan to move air through it.
Pulling more than the maximum recomended weight on any vehicle is a lousy idea, regardless of the modifications made to the tow vehicle.
|
There is probably a lot of truth to what you say and at one time I would have assumed the same through pre conceived ideas.
I once addressed this thought with Andrew T. He replies by saying that based on his experience and the feed back from customers that the heavier trucks and SUVs cost more to operate than the smaller, lighter, cars and Mini Vans.
In our own experience with over 12 yers of towing with a "selected, pro set up", Mini Van and now a car we have never had the water temp gauge go off the normal setting when towing and have not have any mechanical issues related to towing. We tow only 20% of the time so wear and extra stress is minimal and not an issue.
__________________
Airstreams..... The best towing trailers on the planet!
|
|
|
07-01-2008, 10:42 AM
|
#85
|
Rivet Master
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
|
This isn't an Ody but probably not too far off
at Airstream sightings- they were heading over Conway Summit on US 395 towards Yosemite for the night with friends. If I recall correctly, this was a family vacation starting in Pennsylvania, I think.
We encountered them south of Yerington heading towards Bridgeport. The driver knew his stuff.
re "You can only fix so much with maintenance." - my point is that digging into metal wear and lubrication such things is a gross exaggeration in this context. One only has to look at actual experience to see that this isn't really an issue in the context of this thread.
|
|
|
07-01-2008, 01:28 PM
|
#86
|
Rivet Master
Commercial Member
2019 27' Tommy Bahama
London
, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,343
|
A long way off an Odyssey.
Hi Bryan
All this surmizing about how a tow vehicle might work is kind of bewildering for those that have been using them for years.
Over the years I have set up a couple of hundred GM Wagons like the Roadmaster in the picture and since 1999 more Odysseys. It is easy to assume that every vehicle that is smaller than a truck must work the same but the reality is there are vast differences. The Roadmaster is a very durable vehicle and it will likely outlast any other vehicle built before or since (partly because they are so inexpensive to repair). One of our staff drives a 1989 Caprice that we set up new for towing it was used for towing by 3 different families and now has 250,000 miles on it. Two of our customers with Honda vans have over 150,000 miles on them, One tows a 30' 2002 and the other a 27' that they full time in and travel extensively with.
The big difference between the Roadmaster and the Odyssey however is in handling stability. When Gm introduced the B body cars in 1977 we were amazed at how well they handled and performed towing. They were massively better than the 1976 full size cars with 454's and 455's pretty much any way you measured them. However compared with today's vehicles they are what you would expect from 30 year old technology.
The Roadmaster has a 3" shorter wheel base 117" vs the Honda's 120" but the big difference is the rear overhang 68" vs 42". As well the buick has a live rear axle with about 3" of side sway and a 43" rear suspension stance. The Odyssey has independent rear suspension and a 67" wide rear suspension stance. The track on the Honda is 67", 62" on the Buick. As well the Honda has rack and pinion steering and a better tire and wheel combination. The Honda does have a higher centre of gravity than the Buick but it is much lower than most trucks and SUV's.
By the way the Buick in the picture has the ball set too high and not enough tension on the torsion bars. Though with the early 80's 27' I am sure it is not that critical.
I hope this helps.
Andy
__________________
Andrew Thomson London, Ontario
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions." Tex Johnston, Boeing 707 test pilot
|
|
|
07-02-2008, 04:59 AM
|
#87
|
3 Rivet Member
1998 34' Limited
ont
, Ontario
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 229
|
overweight trailer blamed for crash
Quote:
Originally Posted by SARGE/AF
Here below is the news article on the crash that I mentioned in Post #72, when you read you will see a Dodge Durango pulling a 35 foot trailer, the durango is considered to be a mini truck or as the manufactuers call it Midsize, rated at 5500 lb towing capacity, capable of towing this trailer YES, Underrated YES. Driver lost control and unable to control it.
I am betting that when the investigation is done you are going to find that something occured that caused him to loose control. I would also tend to bet that the investigating officer will verify that if towed by the proper vehicle the accident could have been not as serious or even avoided.
Look at the fatility/survivor report. Is taking a chance really worth this price???
I intend to find out, I have a freind on the force who can inquire for me.
Sarge
|
Here is the latest news article from the Hamilton Spectator. Police determined the overweight trailer caused the crash.
TheSpec.com - Local - Overweight trailer caused fatal crash, police determine
Overweight trailer caused fatal crash, police determine TheSpec.com - Local - Overweight trailer caused fatal crash, police determine
Dan Nolan
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jul 2, 2008)
Virginia State Police have determined a fatal crash that took the lives of three members of a Hamilton family was caused by their overweight trailer.
William Smith, 33, his wife Sandra, 35, and their daughter Kaylee, 7, were killed last Thursday night on I-77 in Virginia when their vehicle and trailer went out of control and struck an oncoming tractor-trailer in the northbound lanes.
Two other children, Madison, 9, and Genna, 3, were treated at the Wake Forest University Baptist Center in Winston Salem, N.C., and were expected to be released into the custody of their grandparents by yesterday.
"It's been determined the weight of the trailer did cause the crash," State Trooper O.J. Lilly said Monday, adding it was a "terrible and tragic" accident.
Smith, an HSR bus driver, and Sandra, who worked in the accounting department of Turkstra Lumber, were driving a 2005 Dodge Durango and it was pulling a 35-foot trailer built in 2004.
The family, who had left their east Mountain home Thursday morning, were on their way to Myrtle Beach, S.C., with two other Ontario families. The accident occurred about 5.6 kilometres from a campsite where the three families were planning to spend the night.
Lilly said the Smith's trailer weighed about 8,000 pounds (about 3,630 kilograms) empty.
"Once you start throwing in bikes, camping gear and portable water tanks and sewage tanks and propane tanks, that makes it heavier," he said.
Investigators determined the vehicle and trailer were travelling down a four to five per cent incline on the Wythe County highway that stretches for about 1.6 kilometres.
"There was the downhill incline and in combination with the weight ... he hit the brake and the trailer started swaying on him," Lilly said.
"Once it lost control, it went into the median strip and then into the northbound lanes."
The surviving girls' grandparents, John and Jane Poulton, live in Florida and travelled to Winston Salem after being contacted by police.
Lilly said the couples travelling with the Smiths were "mentally in shock" after the crash, but assisted police with the two injured girls.
They stayed with the girls at the local community hospital and then at the hospital in Winston Salem until the grandparents arrived.
Meanwhile, a trust fund has been set up by friends and family to help the Smith family pay for ongoing expenses such as medical bills, transportation, funeral costs and the long-term needs of Madison and Genna.
The Smith Family Trust Fund has been set up at Hamilton Community Credit Union, with branches at 698 King St. E. and Mohawk Road.
The account number is 3196800, Branch No. 828, Transit No. 21152.
Funeral arrangements have not been announced.
dnolan@thespec.com
|
|
|
07-02-2008, 08:24 AM
|
#88
|
Rivet Master
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
|
This crash is such a good example to examine for how perceptions and biases surface it deserves a bit of thinking about IMHO. As for this thread, take note that the latest rationale is 'overweight trailer' and not 'trailer too big for tow vehicle'. Conflating such things is a good indicator of a confused argument.
Look at the story as the media presented it: 'while traveling down the highway, all of a sudden, boom, the overweight trailer caused the rig to go out of control'. If indeed the cause was as cited, why did it pick that particular moment to surface? An overweight trailer was overweight all the way from home so why did it pick just that particular moment? Did it sense an oncoming truck and use a malicious intelligence to determine when it would act? How did it act? What did it do to stimulate the out of control situation?
The only sane conclusion is that something else actually caused the crash. The weight of the trailer along with other factors such as speed may have contributed to the result but the cause must have been something else. So we look at the article and we find:
Quote:
"There was the downhill incline and in combination with the weight ... he hit the brake and the trailer started swaying on him," Lilly said.
|
Now we get back to the earlier discussion about emergency maneuvers in this thread. The driver did something and the vehicle went out of control. That means the cause was likely that what the driver did or how he did it was inappropriate for the rig he was driving.
The sad fact is that this particular scenario is fairly common in RV crashes. Downhill, pile on the brakes, maybe try to steer around an obstruction, and end up as a pile of debris.
If you want to avoid such crashes, I'd suggest looking to the causative factors. Don't think that a massive tow vehicle, a particular brand of hitch, or other such magic cure is going to solve problems such as driver error or meteor strikes.
and be very very careful about what you read in the so called news.
|
|
|
07-02-2008, 09:13 AM
|
#89
|
Site Team
1974 31' Sovereign
Ottawa
, ON
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,219
|
So, was it perhaps a case of failed trailer brakes? Otherwise, surely the trailer wouldn't have "wagged" if it was the TT's brakes that were applied!?
Again, I suppose if they were trying to carry the equivalent of Lucy's rocks (The Long, Long Trailer) or worse, perhaps no matter what the driver did they were doomed: over-loaded and the TT's brakes fail...?
Who knows? The description in the article wasn't all that clear about precise mechanical causes. It will take a court case to have more information made public, I suppose.
Sad, very sad.
|
|
|
07-02-2008, 09:33 AM
|
#90
|
Patriotic
1973 23' Safari
North of Boston
, Massachusetts
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,546
|
yeah, I'm not thinking that this article is at all "conclusive".
DOT investigations take months; The state police made a determination within a week?
they give an empty weight for the trailer...but a fully-equipped '05 Durango can have a tow rating of 8900lbs; yes, likely over the rated limit with gear, and certainly by airforums.com weight police standards; But nothing like an Intrepid with a 34 footer.
Even if it wasn't a "fully equipped" model, those features that make it so would have absolutely no bearing on the "stability" of the rig, in the configuration where the accident occurred.
We've also seen described, first hand on this site, a situation where even the most capable tow vehicle, irreproachable by even the most conservative of forums weight police, had a catastrophic loss of control, when encountering a hill. (3/4 ton Dodge/Cummins Diesel, experienced driver, etc, etc.). It can happen to any rig.
__________________
Air:291
Wbcci: 3752
'73 Safari 23'
'00 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 QC
|
|
|
07-02-2008, 10:19 AM
|
#91
|
Liquid Cooled
2017 27' Flying Cloud
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
near Indy
, Indiana
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 739
|
On a related and possibly relevant note...
I learned to fly sailplanes in New Mexico. The club was about 40% national lab types and about 30% ex fighter pilots. At altitude things happen that don't at lower altitudes. After flying, we talked a lot about those sorts of things (and others, how to stay warm if you land out in the desert, what to do if you hear a rattlesnake in the cockpit, how to keep it in the air after losing a primary flight control, that sort of thing)
One of those things is flutter. ( on youtube experiencing flutter) If you ventured into the area beyond design limits, you were at risk.
Guys who had experienced it agreed with the theoretical consensus that it could set in with little or no warning but and that the first thing to do is to change the loading (e.g. slow down/speed up, pop the spoilers, reflex the flaps) immediately but with incredible smoothness. Of course, a small change in the loading or configuration of things is what set things on in the first place.
So... how does this relate?
With a given set of circumstances, pavement, suspension, cross wind, etc, I could easily imagine that something operated at beyond nominal limits would get into some sort of dynamically unstable condition that might be a little tough to get out of.
I think, however, that speeds under 60 really help the odds, regardless of what one is driving.
Maybe I'm paranoid, but I try to stay alert for any unexpected sway and will drop 2-3 MPH or tap the brakes a little, especially in windy conditions, sometimes even when it's just a semi going around. I'm sure this annoys Mrs R, but she patiently indulges me.
|
|
|
07-02-2008, 05:57 PM
|
#92
|
Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
|
I've read a number of times over the past 35-years that more than 90% of TV-TT rigs are incorrectly hitched. That, along with driver error (and fatigue) is what strikes me as most likely.
If so, then it fits my preconception of what I see on the highway regularly. And why I'm willing to sweat the details.
I feel terrible for that family.
|
|
|
07-02-2008, 06:50 PM
|
#93
|
2 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Red Deer
, Alberta
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 36
|
Those who use the pergorative term "weight nazi" would be wise to look up the tow vehicle weight to load weight ratios of semi-trucks and train locomotives. They aren't as massive as you think. You should check out the weight of a semi-tractor or railway locomotive.
It's not to say you can't exceed the tow vehicles rated towing capacity, just be aware of implications and manage the risks: Slow down, take measures to avoid aggressiving breaking such as slowing down well in advance of turns and don't follow closely behind vehicles that are far more nimble than yours. As well, keep enough cash to replace the engine or transmission that you're greatly increasing the probability of sudden failure in.
|
|
|
07-02-2008, 08:32 PM
|
#94
|
Site Team
1974 31' Sovereign
Ottawa
, ON
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,219
|
Hey, welcome to the forum, canadianguy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadianguy
Those who use the pergorative term "weight nazi" would be wise to look up the tow vehicle weight to load weight ratios of semi-trucks and train locomotives. They aren't as massive as you think. You should check out the weight of a semi-tractor or railway locomotive.
|
This is an interesting point. I would also add that on a side note, it doesn't help any of us to use terms such as the one you quoted. My feeling is that there is a ton of expertise here that needs to be repected, but there is also other information being put forward that needs to be treated with respect too.
Having said that, the derogative terms won't help us to understand one another and really only serve to raise the hackles of those at whom they are aimed.
From what I've seen, this forum is better than that. Anyway 'nuff said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadianguy
It's not to say you can't exceed the tow vehicles rated towing capacity, just be aware of implications and manage the risks: Slow down, take measures to avoid aggressiving breaking such as slowing down well in advance of turns and don't follow closely behind vehicles that are far more nimble than yours.
|
This is key to understand and believe. If I decide to try something out of the box, it behooves me to ensure that I do everything Iin my power to stack the deck in my favour, as canadianguy suggest above.
|
|
|
07-02-2008, 09:41 PM
|
#95
|
Airstream Guy
Commercial Member
1968 20' Globetrotter
1967 22' Safari
1964 22' Safari
Marion
, Kansas
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 19
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by aircreek
I'm looking into purchasing a '75 Sovereign. Have a 2000 Honda Odessey. I've tried to figure it it out and I'm confused. The weights are:
Honda: GVWR-5656 lbs.
GAWR: 2840 lbs.
Sovereign: 5065 lbs.
-hitch wt. 650 lbs.
-ball ht. 19.5 inches
If someone could tell me it can be done, I'll go for it!
Thanks for the help.
|
I have a 2000 Honda Od and have towed Airstreams 120,000 miles in the last 16 months. It is rated for 3500 pounds and yes I have towed up to 4300 pounds but no way to plan on towing a 75 SOV. Older Airstreams are about 100 pounds lighter per year. My 56 Overlander is only 3200 pounds at 26 feet. I now have 230,000 miles and still going strong........Mark the Airstream Guy
|
|
|
07-03-2008, 02:17 PM
|
#96
|
Rivet Master
1975 Argosy 24
Collierville
, Tennessee
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 727
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
This isn't an Ody but probably not too far off
at Airstream sightings- they were heading over Conway Summit on US 395 towards Yosemite for the night with friends. If I recall correctly, this was a family vacation starting in Pennsylvania, I think.
We encountered them south of Yerington heading towards Bridgeport. The driver knew his stuff.
re "You can only fix so much with maintenance." - my point is that digging into metal wear and lubrication such things is a gross exaggeration in this context. One only has to look at actual experience to see that this isn't really an issue in the context of this thread.
|
Roadmasters rule! The perfect tow vehicle, says me.
__________________
Different strokes for different folks!
I never learned from a man who agreed with me.
Heinlein
|
|
|
07-03-2008, 10:26 PM
|
#97
|
2 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Red Deer
, Alberta
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 36
|
What transmission is in the Roadmaster? Please don't tell me it's the 700R4.
|
|
|
07-03-2008, 11:02 PM
|
#98
|
Rivet Master
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
|
I don't know about the transmission of the Roadmaster in the pic but I recall the driver telling me that what was under the hood was not stock. That fits with Andy's 'easy to repair' comment.
Interesting also about the compare and contrast of wheelbase, overhang, and suspension between the Roadmaster and the Ody - especially in light of the fear about being unable to provide adequate control.
|
|
|
07-04-2008, 12:02 AM
|
#99
|
Rivet Master
1975 Argosy 24
Collierville
, Tennessee
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 727
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadianguy
What transmission is in the Roadmaster? Please don't tell me it's the 700R4.
|
From 94-96 the 4L60E, which is what I have. I believe the TBI cars had the 700R4. Motor=LT1. Yeah baby.
__________________
Different strokes for different folks!
I never learned from a man who agreed with me.
Heinlein
|
|
|
07-04-2008, 07:37 AM
|
#100
|
Retired.
Currently Looking...
.
, At Large
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,276
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmossyone
From 94-96 the 4L60E, which is what I have. I believe the TBI cars had the 700R4. Motor=LT1. Yeah baby.
|
I looked at one last week, I thought it might be good as a backup tow vehicle. It was a '92, with the TBI Chevrolet 5.7, leather seats (cracked) extra seat in the hole in the back, and a "towing package", which consisted of a 1" trailer hitch receiver. 168,000+miles. It was white, with wood grain. I passed on it, even though the body was perfect, and it ran great, with cold air conditioning. The seller indicated he'd take $2000 for it. If anyone is interested, I can put you in touch with him.
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|