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Old 06-24-2008, 08:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Leipper View Post
...
At the Western Pacific Ralroad Museum rally this past weekend I couldn't help but look at those locomotives (600,000 hp! ?) and think about the tow vehicles some folks seem to think appropriate. ;-) I guess Don has a bit more practical approach (see GOAL: Get Out And Look! on Zephyrs). Jerry says they used to have a smaller locomotive (only 6,000 hp?) in a parade in Hawthorne - that could look interesting towing an Airstream.
Slightly OT, but I'm thinking there are only two or three locomotives over 6000 HP. A couple of the larger steam engines approached that, then after a wait of 40-50 years some of the GE and EMD units hit that range.

I agree about the 80000 lbs on 300 hp. I think you'll see lots more of that.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:11 PM   #30
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ya' know, it gets really interesting the degree to which folks go to try to refute some things (or individuals). Knee jerk responses are just as dangerous in these discussions as they are on the road IMHO.

Do you really advocate sudden maneuvers with an RV as a general means to avoid disaster? Really?

Do you really think it a good idea to tell a newbie that he should swing the steering wheel to avoid things with his RV? Really?

What would happen if your "slightly" was 'slightly too much' ?? Perhaps you have the experience to know how much steering at what speed you can get away with but do you think it good advice to suggest others work that line as a general thing? Really?

And just what is an "emergency maneuver" anyway? Is it a slight change in steering or is it an effort to make a sudden large change in direction?

What you can get away with or what you may have survived is one thing. Those incidents may even provide material for examples and be useful if they can provide insight into general rules or concepts. Otherwise, it pays to consider just what you might be suggesting as driving advice and to whom you suggest it.
Don't blow this out of proportion! I checked out the right lane, applied the brakes (didn't stab them to the floor) until I realized that the trailer brakes had not responded as quickly as I had hoped, then steered past the jerk. You weren't there, you don't know my truck, Hensley Arrow and trailer combination so give it a break. Yes, slamming on brakes and jerking the steering wheel can very well cause a jack knife. Fortunately I have 4 wheeled for many years on dirt roads and mud as well as taken our department's defensive driving and pursuit course. I don't claim to be an expert but I'd do the same thing again tomorrow if faced with the same situation. You do what you wish.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:54 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper View Post

At the Western Pacific Ralroad Museum rally this past weekend I couldn't help but look at those locomotives (600,000 hp! ?) and think about the tow vehicles some folks seem to think appropriate. ;-) I guess Don has a bit more practical approach (see GOAL: Get Out And Look! on Zephyrs). Jerry says they used to have a smaller locomotive (only 6,000 hp?) in a parade in Hawthorne - that could look interesting towing an Airstream.

http://www.quorumcorp.net/Downloads/...tyOverview.pdf
I'd like to see a picture of that 600,000 HP locomotive!!!
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:26 AM   #32
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re "I'd like to see a picture of that 600,000 HP locomotive!!!" -- me, too. But that's why the question mark as what I was told didn't make sense (except for hyperbole about some folks tow vehicle preferences ;-) )

I believe this is the vehicle

The history is at Union Pacific's DDA40X Centennial Locomotives - that page indicates a more reasonable 12k hp but I am not sure if it is for half or all of this thing.

I think the weight ratio of this locomotive to an Airstream and also the wheelbase ratios would please some worried about towing capabilities as well - some probably think you'd still have to have a HAHA or a ProPride hitch, though, even when still using rails ...

Quote:
Don't blow this out of proportion!
exactly!

Quote:
It too had a 3500 lb towing capacity
one common error, perhaps a nitpick, but the number isn't a capacity but rather a rating. What I'd like to know is why so many of these cargo vehicles have the same rating. The Honda Pilot uses the same engine with only minor differences (as far as I can tell) in the gearing but has a higher rating. The Ridgeline has a lower hp engine but a higher tow rating.

The note about frontal area is getting into what I think are more pertinent criteria than many we have seen in this thread. I've put enough chicken scratch in the back of my Ody to know how a typical Sovereign tongue load will impact handling so I don't consider that to be much of an issue. I've also seen how the tranny handles engine RPM with loads and some rather steep highway grades so that isn't much of a worry, either. But frontal area representing a continual wind loading could be a factor in overall stress.

Tow ratings just offered on a spec sheet doesn't help much if you don't know what factors are assumed, presumed, and considered in its calculation and the variances involved.

The fact is that GCWR and towed load ratings are dependent upon many factors. IMHO typical abuse of these ratings will have a driver seeking alternatives well before any failure mode for exceeding such ratings is going to appear.
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:08 PM   #33
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6600 hp each

Tow a lot of streams with that
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:45 PM   #34
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Won't know untill you try

This is an interesting thread. He wants to pull a 31 ft. trailer with a Ody? He won't know until he tries. Get on some depends and go for it.
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:21 PM   #35
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Try these spreadsheets to get a quantitative estimate!

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...tml#post456088
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:14 PM   #36
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Quote:
You do what you wish
that I'll do, but this isn't the point at issue. The point at issue is generic advice for others that will help them stay out of trouble. We should be setting good examples, not bad ones both in these forums and on the road. The FUD mongering on one side contrasted to the 'see I can to do it' on the other doesn't help anyone.

Quote:
He won't know until he tries.
or borrows from the experience of others who are doing it - such others as often seem to get abused on these forums.

Quote:
Get on some depends and go for it.
This is the common presumption of binary phenomena. I see it a lot as a form of argument - Either something works or it does not with nothing in between. What makes it a rather poor form of argument is that very few of these things actually work that way. Its close cousin is the numbers game as if they have no qualifications and are absolute arbiters of absolute accuracy.

There are many factors to consider and evaluate in context in choosing a tow vehicle. It is really too bad that you cannot discuss them in a forum like this without encountering diapers arguments.
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Old 06-27-2008, 12:30 AM   #37
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with all due respect liepper, you yourself are engaging in the very thing your crying about ,abiet you are wording it in a more contrived type of dialect .never the less ,
you are in fact disregarding the actual experiences of members such as I and the others posting on this thread , that have in fact been involved in actual situations .
We have a great perspective of BEING THERE ! in those situations ,not only the manuvering from harms way ,but all trailer towing .i see that you complained about being challenged on your view as if it should be off limits ,yet you can in fact continue
to malign those that don't share your view as " arguementative " and so forth .
I also see that your reply here implies that many don't know what there talking about
with there own experiences , davidz71 for starters . you do not address the actual events I stated either so ,one has to conclude therfore that your own opinion is all your concerned about .Ridgerunner has it right ,its not about diapers liepper ,its about getting the CR%#@$ scared out of you ,when things go wrong .Trying somthing different might be fine in some cases ,telling someone he can tow a 30 ft airstream
with a honda minivan when he DOES NOT HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE DOING SO is quite
another thing altogether especially if the vehical is clearly overloaded and your
disregarding hondas tow ratings on top of it all .you guys have to stop looking at the
210 0r 250 horsepower rating ,thats only a small part of it . If you don't want advice
from the folks here that have the real world EXPERIENCE ,don't ask for it .


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Old 06-27-2008, 09:22 AM   #38
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ah yes, now the ad hominem ("contrived type of dialect') and other misperceptions.

"disregarding the actual experiences of members" - I don't think so as I don't see other Ody owners talking about the vehicle and I do see a lot of prognostication about low odds events (brake failure), anticipated fear (diapers), weight absolutes (ratings vs capacity), and other rationalizations. Theorizing is not an actual experience and a lot of what I have seen in this thread is theorizing rather than actual experience.

"to malign those that don't share your view" - I try very hard to malign only the logic used or the conclusion, not the person. There is a very big difference between the behavior and the person. I avoid comments directed to individuals ("with all due respect liepper") and opinions about personal character ("you ...") and unfounded accusation of implications.

I (try to) listen very carefully to those who do not share my views and pay attention to the basis for the views. I also consider my own reactions and responses. That is how I learn. As I noted above, I often get dissapointed because the views I see are based more on ideology and theory than on an effective consideration of factors and issues in the real world. I'd love to discuss the points I raise so I can hone them but, instead, my personality gets razed.

"you do not address the actual events I stated either so ,one has to conclude" - jumping to conclusions about an absence is not a safe activity IMHO. Perhaps I didn't address the topic because I didn't want to be too insulting to someone? Or perhaps because I didn't consider the issue of value in this discussion? Or perhaps I was trying to avoid excess inflamation of the discussion?

"especially if the vehical is clearly overloaded and your disregarding hondas tow ratings" - how do you know the vehicle would be overloaded? Isn't this a presumption created from nothing?

" If you don't want advice from the folks here that have the real world EXPERIENCE ,don't ask for it" - I wasn't the one asking for advice. I am just objecting to what I think is bad advice that seems based on questionable assumptions, a lack of recognition of the factors involved, misperceptions, errors, and a dismissal of the experience of those who have indeed 'been there and done that.'
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:47 AM   #39
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I get tired of the assumptions that the unibody and body-on-frame cars of the 1960's and 1970's didn't exist. Or, pull trailers up to around 7,500-lbs (sometimes more) without incident, without extraordinary expense to the owner, for up to (and beyond) 100,000 miles with drum brakes, hydraulic shocks, bias-ply tires and all the rest. They did.

I can see that there are vehicles now that likely can do a nice job, using the criterion of that day and age (Chrysler 300/Charger/Magnum). As well, the TT tires/shocks/brakes/lighting are better, the hitches can be FAR better and roads in general have better signage and markings.

I also don't remember anyone being dumb enough to tow at 70 mph pre-1974 (diesel truck and toyhauler anyone?) I am not in favor of mixing in driver skill in this kind of discussion because the range is huge, but ANYONE driving an RV of any sort ought to have respect for the fact that these are the least-able vehicles/rigs on the road.

My parents, grandparents and I all did this with cars, right into the 1980's. Several hundred thousand miles of the US, Canada and Mexico. (And the unibody Chryslers were the best of these; as well as the high-compression engines of the late 1960's).

Leippers comments are dead-on about the nature of these discussions, even though I advocate knowing what one's rig feels like in an emergency lane change maneuver (which is different than it is in a car, the time for "emergency" is sooner, the steering action less, and hopefully one knows the speed at which this can be done and is not far above it.

Shouting it down, using language that denigrates the other voice, circular reasoning . . . give it a break.

As to whether that Odyssey can haul that trailer, sure, looking at the numbers is the very first consideration. But it doesn't lead to a predetermined answer.
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:57 AM   #40
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I'm not saying right, wrong, indifferent or offering an opinion - I'm just saying that a couple of weeks ago I attended a rally where a guy was pulling his '70's 31' with a Odyssey (year?), and his Dad was pulling his 34' with a Astro van (I think he went to Alaska with it).
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Old 06-27-2008, 11:02 AM   #41
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I say go for it, but make sure you have plenty of personal liability insurance just in case.

I too have a Honda Odyssey in the drive way, however, I'm unwilling to exceed that manufacturers tow rating. Even if I'm not at fault if I were to have an accident, I'm afraid of our sue crazy country.

It would only take a couple seconds for an insurance/mishap investigator to determine that "my" vehicle's recommended tow rating was exceeded.

Then all hell would break lose and I for one would also not want on my conscience if someone were killed as a result of the incident, my fault or not.

Accidents do happen, they happen every day. Most often those accidents are caused by human error, not mechanical as today's manufacturing processes are for the most part excellent.

So I say go for it.
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Old 06-27-2008, 11:49 AM   #42
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Now the insurance FUD is tossed in. It usually shows up rather earlier in weight police threads from what I can recall. I have yet to see that fear backed up by any reality, actual experience, or other evidence (but still looking for good data).

When I look at some of the comments here I begin to wonder if we are getting too comfortable in our RV's while driving down the road.

A major causes of crashes on Nevada Highways is from drivers who fail to keep their attention on their driving. ( see Nevada Traffic Crashes )

If your vehicle 'hides' the influence of the rig's weight and size in handling then perhaps it is easier to get into a state of highway hypnosis; it is more difficult to avoid letting the speed creep up (and let's don't get started on cruise controls!); it is easier to daydream; distractions don't seem to be pulling your attention away from more important things; you find it easier to put off necessary breaks that keep you alert on long drives.

So, if I take the assertions in this thread at face value, assertions that using a vehicle like the Ody as a tow vehicle will be a fearful experience (to the point of needing diapers), then perhaps it follows that driving such a rig would be safer than driving a big truck to tow your Airstream because a driver on edge is certainly paying more attention to his driving.

Maybe tongue in cheek is appropriate for this idea but I think it is something to consider in this discussion, something much more real than prognostications about things that have yet to happen.
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