Help spec a new F-250

[nryn]

I think of “more” for the sake of “more” as a distinctly American thing. To be fair, Ford doesn’t make it easy on this front—an *identically* specced 350 would have cost me less than $200 more (no joke). I agree, though. The only reason I’d get a 350 is if I wanted a diesel (to offset the payload hit), but that will never happen.

Once I decided to leave the driving for a vehicle intended and optimized for driving (my Volvo SUV) and focus on a vehicle intended and optimized for towing, the 250 made a lot more sense. I realize the privilege in being able to have a dedicated tow vehicle, a place to store it, and the means to maintain it.

I maintain that for where and how I live, the 250 would make an absolutely awful daily driver. But for our extended trips (10k+ miles each) this summer and next, it is working out to be ideal. The kids absolutely love it (which is good—they’ll be spending a lot of time in it) and are looking forward to staying not only in the Airstream but also in the pickup bed (which I have to say is infinitely more comfortable than the backseat/trunk combos in my old Saabs, which saw plenty of roadside sleeping).

[out of sight]

Before you decide on an F250 vs F350 you should check the registration fees and DMV rules in your state. Some states have exhorbitant fees for vehicles with GVWR over 10,000 Lbs. The F250 comes in at 9900 while the F350 is over that.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by pteck

And you'll want to bring all that stuff along to "cushion" the ride.

That's the thing about having too much excess payload.

The trade is that your back might have to act as the cushion otherwise with an unladen truck.

Actually, you need to remember they changed the suspension in the F250 starting in 2017; I drove both a 2016 model and the new 2017 before making a decision. If your lumping all of these Ford 3/4T in to a "rough riding 3/4T category", that would be wrong. I suggested in earlier posts, if you have not driven a new F250 to understand the ride in the 2017 and newer models is "much" improved over the 2016 and older models, you really should give it a test drive to understan. The other thing I would point out is ride will vary with different models; I have the Off Road FX4 King Ranch model; I think it drives great empty but really loaded with AS attached! It is much better ride then the Lariat model I also test drove at the time...

I know going from my F150 EB Platinum to the 2017 F2506.7L, what stuck out to me was the size difference (5.6' bed vs 6.5"), the longer wheel base, and the height. It was a heavier feel on the road also, and of course you know it's not a 1/2T, but I actually like driving the 250 on the highway, especially towing our 28'. The payload is a plus for sure, and power...man does it go when you step on it with all that torque!

As for payload, (which we have discussed at nauseum) I love carrying a generator, bbq grill (or 2), propane, camp gear, kayaks, sometimes firewood/sometimes my Firepit, and up to 4 more adults from time to time...Great size truck for the larger AS's, with a great ride, newest bells and whistles, great performance, and extra payload capability when needed.

[pteck]

We can discuss these things with a little more finesse than just blanket statements.

As with, anything details matter.

So an '17 F250 rides better than a '16 and below F250. Great, and I buy that fact 100%. In the name of progress, it would be disappointing if it did not.

It's a spectrum of ride quality. What you couch as rough riding for you, is a personal threshold. Many may agree with you. Just as many and I suspect many more, would not. Those coming from real luxury vehicles, especially the modern ones that have tight body control yet sumptuous rides, would say you have no clue what you're talking about.

Neither are wrong, it's a personal choice. It's not so hard to compare on the spectrum from roughest to plushest:

F350 < 16' F250 < '17 F250 < F150 < whatever else you want to compare to

Yet I agree, generally passenger or luxury vehicles can't carry what an F250 can. If that's your requirement, by all means, that is the right vehicle for you.

If one isn't actually utilizing the payload. It's a pretty significant compromise.

Sure hope that was a compromise that one wanted, rather than one was mislead into. It's also not so great having to huck stuff into the high bed of an F250/F350.

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Before you decide on an F250 vs F350 you should check the registration fees and DMV rules in your state. Some states have exhorbitant fees for vehicles with GVWR over 10,000 Lbs. The F250 comes in at 9900 while the F350 is over that.

This is an important point that I haven't seen mentioned in the "payload" discussions on AirForums. A 3/4 Ton's payload is limited by the 10,000# "legal" requirement for licensing purposes rather than its "engineered" capabilities. https://www.worktruckonline.com/1458...d-how-its-done .

Beattie and Chew noted their greatest involvement comes with vehicles rated at 10,000 lbs. and under. With heavy and medium trucks, VSOs are now set up to accommodate the special GVW ratings. One requirement for vehicles over 10,000 GVW is that the drivers maintain comprehensive logbooks.

So, according to Chew, "The customer might say 'I'm willing to give up the payload capacity. I really don't need it. I want you to de-rate the vehicle. I'm happy to have all the components that allow me to have that much capacity, but I want a vehicle that's rated at 10,000 lbs. or less, so I can avoid maintaining logbooks and some of the other markings that must be on the vehicle.' "

He added the logbook and vehicle marking issues are the main reasons, over the past few years, the VSO group has been asked to do a 10,000 lb. de-rate from a higher GVWR — either 11,500 or 10,700 lbs.

Canada mandates a similar requirement as well, based on a GVWR of 4.5 metric tonnes (9,900 lbs.)

Chew noted that in the latest model-year, he and Beattie have taken many such special requests and incorporated them into the regular ordering guide. Those special GVWRs can be ordered from Ford without going through VSO. A 10,000-lb. GVW rating, for example, is available in both Super Duty and Econoline products.

[nryn]

Originally Posted by pteck

If one isn't actually utilizing the payload. It's a pretty significant compromise.

Agreed completely. I’d have a different vehicle if it were just me or just my wife and I traveling or maybe even if my family wasn’t so enthusiastic about biking. Some due diligence (and help from this thread and others) went a long way on this; no one should default to any vehicle just because that’s what folks say you should do (I don’t quite get the caveman “go big or go home” mentality). Do remember that my strong preference was for a smaller vehicle when I went into this. But looking closely at what I wanted to tow and what I wanted to do led me in a different direction.

It should be acknowledged that an equally if not more significant compromise is choosing a vehicle that cannot adequately handle payload. I believe I saw this in action a few times on my shakedown trip (once up close) and it wasn’t pretty and caused issues for others on the roadway. So even as a novice at this, my suggestion to everyone who is coming at this for the first time is to really consider carefully what your travel requirements are—everything from number of people to what stuff you’ll want to bring to enjoy yourselves.

Originally Posted by pteck

It's also not so great having to huck stuff into the high bed of an F250/F350.

Definitely higher than I would like, but more for the kids than for me. The ramp (8 feet, 15 lbs, aluminum and foldable) works out well for them (I’ll post more on that later). One totally unexpected benefit for me is that the truck gate is the *perfect* height for me for stand-up eating (I have a bad back and can’t really sit at picnic tables for long). Not a reason to get a big truck, for sure, but a nice bonus.

I have to say that hoisting our folding bikes onto the pickup bed is 1000% preferable to putting them on a roof rack (on any car—on my Volvo I use a hitch rack but can’t on the truck while towing the Airstream for obvious reasons). It’s also nice to have a cargo area that can store wet and messy stuff, which happened several times on my springtime shakedown trip.

My point, and I believe your point, is that once one gets over a certain size Airstream, matching a tow vehicle to travel requirements is not as straightforward as “get a big truck”. On some level it’s all about which compromises you need or are willing to make (e.g. I was not willing to leave our bikes at home), and that no one should accept a tow vehicle recommendation without understanding the compromises that come along with it.

As with all things, only time will tell if I made the wrong choice. If the 250 wasn’t working out I’d be completely candid about it (e.g. I hate driving the thing around town) because that’s how I am and because I really do want this thread to be useful to people. But really, it’s working out better than I had expected and I feel like the homework I did really paid off.

Anyway, I’ll post one last time on this thread after the family shakedown trip and a three-pass visit to the scales.

[pgordon888]

Went through the whole F250 v F350 thing last summer when we were awaiting delivery on our new 14000 GVWR TT. We only have garage parking in the city for 2 cars so adding a super duty as a towing vehicle only was not an option (hanger outside of town for TT). Honestly, I could not tell any difference in ride comfort between the 250 and 350 on the test drive but loved the diesel towing specs and acceleration so knew the 350 was the only option after the dealer visit. Installed 4 corner Kelderman air ride with up to 8 inch on the fly adjustable ride height so as to fit in our garage. Bonus is that the highway ride quality is now on par with our old airmatic equipped ‘14 Mercedes GL. Not an inexpensive solution but much more affordable than adding a 3rd vehicle.

[CRH]

I also drove a 250 and 350 before ordering. I couldn't tell a difference, either, when it came to the ride. I chose a 350 gasser with 4.30 gears. I also got snow plow and camper prep springs. I think the truck rides just fine...I use my truck for more than just the AS. Just the other day, I pulled a 12k pound trailer on the bumper and had no complaints.

[pjshier]

After several months and 2K miles, I can report the Sulastic hangars are working as desired: takes the "bite" out of the F350 unladen ride. about 1200 miles was across "suboptimal" Alaska highway conditions. I really like the idea of the air suspension for height adjustment, though. In the mean time, the Sulastic hangars "cusion" the ride and mitigate unladen rear axle hop going over significant pavement transitions.

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by pteck

Yes, I did comment on the add on packages.

It's all for the sake of bringing some balance back into the dialogue that's common here - where more is more and more is always better.

As many of us know, more is just more. And more is not always better. Because there is always a cost. Either literal, or it tips the balance towards some quality at the detriment of another quality.

Payload capacity is one of those things. Boiled down, it's very much about spring rate. Sure there's other considerations, but it's more about that single parameter than many others.

It's no wonder, from sedans, to vans, to 1/2 ton trucks - they all generally have payload in the 900-1300lb range. As passenger cars first, ride quality is paramount.

Once a vehicle becomes more about performing laden work, ride quality is then a secondary factor as higher spring rates have to be there to support the load. Sure, there's been improvements and progressive springs. But it only can go so far as there's limited suspension stroke to work with. Too much progression, leaves too little spring travel for laden work.

One can have it all, payload and ride quality, by choosing the just right vehicle for the intended use. If that's the F250 - more power to you. They've come a long way and can be comfortable and capable.

I would just temper those that are then staring at the F350 on the account of "more".

Actually a F350 and a F250 ride the same unloaded.As the weight increases the F350 spring pack becomes more capable.Thus the term progressive leaf springs is achieved.

[DewTheDew]

On a side note; the tires can make a pretty large difference in ride quality, too. Especially if you have street legal "off road" tires as they have a very stiff sidewall.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Moflash

Actually a F350 and a F250 ride the same unloaded.As the weight increases the F350 spring pack becomes more capable.Thus the term progressive leaf springs is achieved.

Yeah, if you actually read my post, I acknowledged that.

The tender part of the travel only goes so far. We've all experienced bigger bumps where 1-2" worth of plush travel gets used in a hurry. Then your teeth finds the firmer leaf pack.

There's no getting around the fact that high spring rates are a detriment to ride quality. That solid front axle is also there for capacity and durability. Not ride quality.

If one actually carries the load it was designed for, the ride can be reasonably good. Just don't expect that same ride empty.

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by pteck

Yeah, if you actually read my post, I acknowledged that.

The tender part of the travel only goes so far. There's bigger bumps in the road where 1-2" worth of plush travel get used in a hurry and then your teeth will find the firmer leaf pack. Ride quality isn't determined by a minimal example of smooth roads.

There's no getting around the fact that high spring rates are a detriment to ride quality. That solid front axle also is there for durability. Not ride quality.

If one actually carries the load it was designed for, the ride can be reasonably good. Just don't expect that same ride empty.

I read your post.

That’s not actually true.The primary spring in the progressive spring pack is soft one and that’s the one you are using when unloaded.The spring pack is progressive and becomes more capable as more weight is applied.

You evidently have not driven a new F250 or F350 much less pulled a larger Airstream trailer with one.

[nryn]

FWIW I drove both the 250 and the 350, same model year, and felt a difference. I realized later that I hadn’t checked the window stickers closely and couldn’t say whether they had different options that may have contributed to the difference in road feel (such as camper or snowplow prep).

A friend who has a 2016 250 rode in mine a few weeks ago and couldn’t believe it was a Superduty. When I spoke to him last week he was on his way to the dealer to see what he’d get in trade toward a MY18 or 19.

I think there’s a lot of posturing, academic speculation, and navel-gazing on these threads, and when it’s kept civil it’s all fine and maybe someone learns something. But it often isn’t kept civil and I would like to keep this thread a productive one for the time it has left. Before the thread descends into bickering, let’s just say that Superduty trucks are not SUVs and vice versa, and this thread is about the process and details of speccing the F-250.

Thanks.

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by nryn

FWIW I drove both the 250 and the 350, same model year, and felt a difference. I realized later that I hadn’t checked the window stickers closely and couldn’t say whether they had different options that may have contributed to the difference in road feel (such as camper or snowplow prep).

A friend who has a 2016 250 rode in mine a few weeks ago and couldn’t believe it was a Superduty. When I spoke to him last week he was on his way to the dealer to see what he’d get in trade toward a MY18 or 19. [emoji4]

I think there’s a lot of posturing, academic speculation, and navel-gazing on these threads, and when it’s kept civil it’s all fine and maybe someone learns something. But it often isn’t kept civil and I would like to keep this thread a productive one for the time it has left. Before the thread descends into bickering, let’s just say that Superduty trucks are not SUVs and vice versa, and this thread is about the process and details of speccing the F-250.

Thanks.

Was this a 2017-2019 F350 Superduty that you drove? If both were equipped with the same options they would actually ride the same.

[nryn]

Yeah, both 2018s. Like I said—I didn’t pay enough attention to their options. I did know enough to check that they were both 4x4s and gas engines, but they may have different tires and so forth too. My bad. Still would have ended up with the 250 though

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Moflash

I read your post.

That’s not actually true.The primary spring in the progressive spring pack is soft one and that’s the one you are using when unloaded.The spring pack is progressive and becomes more capable as more weight is applied.

You evidently have not driven a new F250 or F350 much less pulled a larger Airstream trailer with one.

Sounds like you may have bought into marketing material without understanding how a progressive pack actually works.

It's based upon the amount of suspension deflection. Unladen, yes it rides on the fluffy soft leaf at the very top part of the suspension stroke. Laden, and with the fluffy leaf compressed/deflected, it rides primarily on the HD pack.

When you hit a big enough bump unladen, it will get into the HD pack that then gives you a nice kick.

F350 rides like an F250? That's a new one.

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by pteck

Sounds like you may have bought into marketing material without understanding how a progressive pack actually works.



It's based upon the amount of suspension deflection. Unladen, yes it rides on the fluffy soft leaf at the very top part of the suspension stroke. Laden, and with the fluffy leaf compressed/deflected, it rides primarily on the HD pack.



When you hit a big enough bump unladen, it will get into the HD pack that then gives you a nice kick.



F350 rides like an F250? That's a new one.

Actually no.I have been in the automobile business for 45 years.I am also an ASE certified technician.Member of the Chevrolet truck Hall of Fame.Certified in medium and H.D trucks.I have done consulting for GM,Ford,Mercedes Benz,Porsche,Ferrari and Lamborghini.I have studied suspension theory with some of the best in the industry and have driven on most major race tracks in the USA and Europe.
I have owned a new 2012,2015 and 2017 Ford F350 6.7 SuperCrew’s and will have a 2020 10 spd auto when released.

Please continue to tell me more of you 2017-2019 Ford Superduty progressive spring knowledge.

It appears you pull with a 10 year old Lexus SUV with 33’ tires. Hmmm

Peace out

[Eagle Keeper]

Originally Posted by Moflash

Actually no.I have been in the automobile business for 45 years.I am also an ASE certified technician.Member of the Chevrolet truck Hall of Fame.Certified in medium and H.D trucks.I have done consulting for GM,Ford,Mercedes Benz,Porsche,Ferrari and Lamborghini.I have studied suspension theory with some of the best in the industry and have driven on most major race tracks in the USA and Europe.
I have owned a new 2012,2015 and 2017 Ford F350 6.7 SuperCrew’s and will have a 2020 10 spd auto when released.

Please continue to tell me more of you 2017-2019 Ford Superduty progressive spring knowledge.

It appears you pull with a 10 year old Lexus SUV with 33’ tires. Hmmm

Peace out

I want to buy you beer!

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Moflash

Actually no.I have been in the automobile business for 45 years.I am also an ASE certified technician.Member of the Chevrolet truck Hall of Fame.Certified in medium and H.D trucks.I have done consulting for GM,Ford,Mercedes Benz,Porsche,Ferrari and Lamborghini.I have studied suspension theory with some of the best in the industry and have driven on most major race tracks in the USA and Europe.
I have owned a new 2012,2015 and 2017 Ford F350 6.7 SuperCrew’s and will have a 2020 10 spd auto when released.

Please continue to tell me more of you 2017-2019 Ford Superduty progressive spring knowledge.

It appears you pull with a 10 year old Lexus SUV with 33’ tires. Hmmm

Peace out

So rather than lay out your credentials. How about you spend some time to tell us how this works? And how a higher spring leafs on an F350 is to ride the same as an F250?

I'm sure those trucks ride as great as my 10 yr old Lexus with your consultation.