Help for another newbie, Can I tow with an Infinity FX45

[smartworker]

I am planning to purchase a AS CCD International 22' and the salesman from Woodland RV in Michigan assures me that my car can pull the trailer because he is deducting weight (20%) from the trailer for its aerodynamics and weight characteristics compared to other trailers.

Here are some particulars for the Infinity FX45:

- Tow hitch (no package) with 3500 lbs capacity
- Max tongue weight 350 lbs
- Curb weight 4,309 lbs
- V8, 315 Horses, with 329 ft lbs torque at 4000 RPM
- 5 speed automatic with manual shift mode
- Wheelbase 112.2 inches
- Width 75.8 inches
- Crossover design, 65 inches tall hence relatively low center of gravity
- 20' V rated all season tires
- Four wheel vented disc brakes with ABS
- Four wheel drive

I did my homework by reading many of the postings related to towing but no one else had ??? about Crossover SUV which is essentially a sports car in SUV disguise (concerned it might be impractical as a tow vehical??????). Additionally wanted to confirm the salesman's comments.

The FX45 is brand new with 75 miles on it. Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Nick

[05ModPod]

Hi

Not an expert by any stretch - but I can tell you for a fact that our Kia although a V6 fairs better as a tow vehicle.

She's heavier, built on a ladder truck frame and has the available Gross Axle weight - about the same torque but longer wheel base.

It is all in the weight and how it is distributed. If you don't want to trade and into physics - then check out CanAms site and read all about the Hensley hitch. We don't have one - but like I said if you know physics then this is an alternative to changing your tow vehicle.

Also longevity of tow vehicle is a factor - yes a V6 will pouch before the V8 if driven hard - but if your rear axle can not take the weight in the first place then it does not matter how much power you have!

...and that is from a layman not a mechanic....here will follow the technical gear ratios and more intricate opinions of how your baby will handle your prospective CCD I-22....

[wingfoot321]

I don't know the trailer weight or hitch weight of the proposed 22' CCD. If you have those numbers, would help to publish. They are available on the airstream website if you don't have them.

Your salesman wants to sell a trailer. You don't discount anything on weight. You will get better gas mileage due to the airstream shape but,weight is weight.

You need to take airstream's weight and add to it for options, plus all the food, cooking gear, clothes, tools, tv, outdoor chairs, carpet,table, propane, water, hoses, elec cord, etc. The list is almost endless.

My 29' has a dry weight of 5300#; my loaded trailer weight on the scales was just a little over 6700# and I try to stay low on water. I'm retired and probably carry more than most people.

[Silvertwinkie]

According to the Infinit website, the SUV has some meat under the hood. That's great as the engine has more than enough power to tow even a 25' (maybe), so a 22' or less would be no problem for the engine.

But I still don't think it a good tow vehicle....why......well.........

It's a unibody frame. Infinit clearly states in the specs that it has a 350lb hitch weight and a 3500 tow rating. Even with the tow rating being a factory numbers game, you'd be exceeding that number by approx 1,100 lbs if you towed even a 19' Bambi and would exceed that hitch weight (without weight distribution) by 110lbs. Now as for the 22' CCD, per the 2004 specs, empty, the coach weight 4,043. It has a GVWR of 5600 lbs and has a hitch weight of 590lbs.

Given that the FX has a 112" wheelbase, that too adds to my concern, not alarm, concern.

By no means do I suggest you go out and get a 1 ton truck, but although your engine is up to the task, other components on the FX might not to be up to the task of a 5600lb RV. If I go by the specs, the largest you could tow would be a 16', maybe a 19' IMHO. See there are other things like cooling, gearing, transmission, axle ratings, tire ratings and a whole bunch of things to consider. I think the dealer would sell you a 34' if you let him/her.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by GT6921

Hi

It is all in the weight and how it is distributed. If you don't want to trade and into physics - then check out CanAms site and read all about the Hensley hitch. We don't have one - but like I said if you know physics then this is an alternative to changing your tow vehicle.

"knowing" physics ...a hensley will not magically make weight disappear from a trailer. weight distribution is weight distribution; not weight evaporation. The hensley will eliminate sway...not weight.

nor will aerodynamics affect anything, either. sure, it'll be easier to pull an aerodynamic trailer on flat, level surfaces. but on a hill, weight is weight.

[Tin Hut]

I agree with the previous posters. Aerodynamics is important but does not impact GVWR or Hitch Weight. If the salesman is taking 20% off the weight for aerodynamics I'd be interested in his calculation for hot days with thinner air vs cold days, rainy days etc. He's talking apples to oranges. If you're borderline on the weight limits I suppose the hitch becomes even more important to control sway so it doesn't start moving the tow vehicle, also if you're primarily in flat country you can probably pull anything, mountains & grades would be a different story. I have the Reese Dual cam and am happy. If you're pushing the limits I'd suggest the Hensely if you can afford it. Good luck!

[05ModPod]

"knowing" physics ...a hensley will not magically make weight disappear from a trailer. weight distribution is weight distribution; not weight evaporation. The hensley will eliminate sway...not weight.

nor will aerodynamics affect anything, either. sure, it'll be easier to pull an aerodynamic trailer on flat, level surfaces. but on a hill, weight is weight.

Now did I imply that "magically weight will disappear???" I don't think so - I said check them out as it may be an alternative.

I totally agree weight is weight! any &%^%$$*&& knows that - including a dumb brunette! But what women know is how to distribute weight!

I don't know all the gross weight on nicks intended set up but CanAm would certainly be able to give them an accurate yeh/ney.

I think my point was perfectly clear - that weight distribution and the amount on the rear axles (including hitch weight which I thought is pretty much common sense) are probably the most important aspect of towing. So I'm sure Nick can read and determine for himself. - I have no idea what the new ones weigh and what options Nick would be looking at. So I trust he would add up the weight totals and then go do his research like all the rest of us newbies.

We were in the same shoes as he is not 3 months ago - just bought a brand new Kia before even thinking about a VAS - and were being told by a few on this site and many others that it only pulls 3500# when in fact it pulls the top end of 6K# (yes even with a pewny little V6).

We found out the hard way that weight ratings by the manufacturer are based on no set standards - so in Kia's case they changed their ratings from 5K# on the same vehicle down to 3500# from year to the next - purely because they did not have a "so-called" factory tow pacakge lined up yet" Nothing changed physically on the vehicle weight, engine, tires, suspension or anything.

So it pays to do your homework/research and sometimes getting by with a smaller tow vehicle until you can manage to get a bigger one for the long hauls is what you have to do.

Chuck I also did say that the Kia was a ladder truck frame - (this is the opposite of a unibody) - the very least for towing is a framed vehicle rather than a unibody - unless of course you want to leave your body behind one day.

So you are telling me that if I am close to my hitch weight that a "weight distribution system" (anymake don't really care) would not even out and maybe keep me under my max I don't think so....

Sounds like you have a little bit of a pee on regarding the Hensley - your perogative. Like I said we don't have one - but what I saw on how our reese hitch load levelers did to distribute our weight on our set up was amazing - and our little sway bar worked great too...and when I see the Hensley set up and how it works (not just with the sway!!!!) but with the distribution as well - no wonder they work!

Just my two cents - and try not to put words in my mouth Chuck - I have enough in there as it is

[Tin Hut]

You go girl!

[Silvertwinkie]

CanAm....be afraid....be very afraid. Ever notice how it's always the Candadians that tow with the FWD V6s with the CanAms?

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by GT6921

Now did I imply that "magically weight will disappear???" I don't think so - I said check them out as it may be an alternative.

an alternative to an under-rated tow vehicle? no, it isn't. unless you can find away to "distribute" the weight to someone else's tow vehicle, and even the Hensley can't do that.

I don't know all the gross weight on nicks intended set up but CanAm would certainly be able to give them an accurate yeh/ney.

Can Am will tell him that he can tow a 34 footer with a vw bug. doesn't mean its safe.

I think my point was perfectly clear - that weight distribution and the amount on the rear axles (including hitch weight which I thought is pretty much common sense) are probably the most important aspect of towing.

Yes, I believe you were perfectly clear....and also, wrong. The most important aspect of towing is that the towed item's total weight does not exceed the tow vehicles capabilities. the Hensley has no affect on this whatsoever. ANY wd hitch will evenly distribute the weight evenly to the tow vehicles axles. If you take a 10k lbs and distribute it evenly between the 2 axles on my truck....it'll only mean that they'll snap at exactly the same time. What the Hensley does do, is alleviate sway, and it is somewhat magical in the way that it does this. If I had a big enough trailer, I'd love to have one. I don't have any beef with it. I'm sure its a fine product, and I can honestly say that I've never seen anyone say here, or anywhere else, that they bought one and weren't satisfied. But it does not spin gold from straw.

So you are telling me that if I am close to my hitch weight that a "weight distribution system" (anymake don't really care) would not even out and maybe keep me under my max I don't think so....

No, not at all. that's exactly what a WD hitch is for. Hitch weight, or "tounge" weight. It does not change the vehicle's gross weight capacity, or the gross weight of the trailer.

for example: my trucks tow rating is >7000lbs. my trailer only weighs 5500lbs. No problem, right? wrong. the hitch weight on the trailer is 590lbs, and the trucks hitch is only rated for 500lbs....BUT, its rated for 1000 with a WD hitch. The rear axle could support the 600lbs...but hanging way back there by the bumper, the rear end sags so low that the front axle becomes unloaded, which is a dangerous condition, affecting steering and braking. "distributing" 300lbs of that load to the front axle alleviates that problem. It does not, however, make the truck as a unit, able to pull more weight.

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by smartworker

I am planning to purchase a AS CCD International 22' and the salesman from Woodland RV in Michigan assures me that my car can pull the trailer because he is deducting weight (20%) from the trailer for its aerodynamics and weight characteristics compared to other trailers.

Cheers,

Nick

Nick, this is probably THE most exciting concept in Airstream sales I've heard in a long time: Selling Airstreams by the pound! Wow! So ask him if he'll deduct 20% off the price since you're obviously buying 20% less weight on your tow vehicle!

The other posts are right on. Your car "may be able" to tow it, but that's significantly different from "ought to tow it". Remember, you're going to have a 5600lb trailer pushing your 4300lb SUV. Check the rated numbers very carefully. If you have to ask whether "overrated" numbers will work, you're probably pushing it. That means it will work just fine, until some lunkhead pulls out in front of you and you have to panic stop, or weave around somebody's couch on the interstate... as was stated... physics is physics!

Good luck with your decision!

Roger

[Tin Hut]

You go guy!

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by Tin Hut

You go guy!

Hey, Tin Hut... did you do 12 ounce curls for lunch again????

Roger

[Tin Hut]

I measure my weight lifting in liters and pints now, not oz.

[Silvertwinkie]

Tin Hut....you crack me up!

[thenewkid64]

Nick,

Thought I would jump in here too.

The previous posters have said what I would say regarding the abilities of the proposed tow vehicle. The only issue I have is the discussion of the trailer outweighing the tow vehicle. If a 4300 LB Pickup can tow a 25-28 footer based on manufacturers data, why not a 4300 pound crossover pulling a 22 footer? The Unibody is my only concern on the strength issue. Ladder frame is better.

The issue that I think all of them, and maybe you, are missing is the fact that this is a BRAND NEW 40+K vehicle with less than 100 miles on the clock.

If you were to get an Airstream and tow it behind your FX45 you will have to be quick on your feet when you take it in for ANY warranty service, and maybe any service. Infiniti will not stand behind any drive train issues, or possibly any warranty issues, if they find you are towing over the max weight rating. I own an Infinti, and I will tell you right now they are not cheap to fix should something major go wrong after the warranty period. Love the car, but cringe anytime I have to visit a dealer.

If you wish to do it anyway with all of the info posted, I would find a shop along the lines of a Can AM that will engineer a hitch that can handle the load. The factory one will not be up to the task either. leaving the hitch and the trailer at a stop light would ruin your whole trip

Based on the old vintage calculations you have enough horsepower, the wheelbase is a bit iffy, but if you stay short on the trailer you can do it.

Just remember, you will be towing with an underrated tow vehicle and need to be aware of the issues regarding liability should you have an accident, as well as possible warranty issues with the Tow vehicle. You may want to ask your insurance company if they will insure this setup.

I know it is not as sexy but have you considered upgrading to the QX56? It has a 9K towing capacity in a 2wd model. It is based on the Nissan Armada.

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by thenewkid64

Just remember, you will be towing with an underrated tow vehicle and need to be aware of the issues regarding liability should you have an accident, as well as possible warranty issues with the Tow vehicle. You may want to ask your insurance company if they will insure this setup.

Well said, Brett. You managed, in a couple of brief sentences to say what I was mucking about trying to say. The insurance companies and their adjusters are the folks who determine who has liability, how much, and why. Even if it's a clear case of the other guy screwed up, you could still be assessed part of the liability based on your setup. It's really your insurance company's blessing that counts!

Roger

[05ModPod]

I thought forum protocal was someone posted a question and anyone can offer an opinion - and not that each opinion is then debated taking the thread so far out in left field.....

Sorry Nick this is your thread...and I hope you are able to solve your weight issue..

All I really was trying to say - is dig a little deeper because sometimes the rating put out by the car companies marketing department is not exactly what the manufactured rating is - and rather than just looking at the GVWR - look at the GAWR - rear axle specifically.

Unless your vehicle came with a hitch (which I was not sure if it did by your post - thus I would not know the weight as class II and III hitches have different weight ratings as does the size of the Hitch Ball.

Originally the Kia was rated for 5000# then down to 3500# the following year - but when we had our dealer install the hitch option for the "Tow Package" they put on a class III (Max 5000# with 500# on the ball) so if the vehicle can not tow that weight then why are they installing it - they are asking for law suits. When we bought our Kia we specifically stated we needed a vehicle that could pull 5K# for our boat - never mind any trailer at that point and we were assured it can.

It was not until I put the question to this forum that I was sent on a wild goose chase - to ensure that this vehicle we just bought could pull 3300# - dry and about 4500# full. I found out quickly that there are varied opinions on this forum when it comes to the tow vehicle and the overall package as well as how some look at towing in general and it paid for us to do our own research.

However it was still great to read everyones opinions as all situations are different.

Not everything you read it "legit"...example the Volkswagon fiasco - and the Tourag. A similar situation happened with one of the Dodge Ram Trucks a few years back - the truck sat spinning it's wheels going nowhere with weights well under it's listed capacities - Rick I am no expert and just here to offer friendly opinons based on our own experiences.

We have not tackled the mountains yet, nor have we hit the prarie head winds and I suspect that we will not be going top speeds either - but then we will be on vacation!!!!.....and as long as our brakes are up to top notch mechanical order - MoonBeam will not be pushing "Kiacanto" around



Okay sorry I can not resist - Did I mention that I was the one they would ask to go tell the school yard bully to stop picking on the helpless......

Ever notice how it's always the Candadians that tow with the FWD V6s with the CanAms?

That's because our gas prices are higher and we don't have a fetish of pulling our toys at 70+ miles an hour up and down hills

an alternative to an under-rated tow vehicle?

If I did not know the weight of Nicks intended purchase or the details of the Infiniti - how would I know it was under rated???? - Just indicated if he thought he was going to be close to check out the Hensley WD&S system.

.....wrong.

but I was not implying right or wrong....


Humdedumdedum......can't wait to meet you guys one day - we'd have some pretty good debates I think

[j54mark]

Originally Posted by GT6921

All I really was trying to say - is dig a little deeper because sometimes the rating put out by the car companies marketing department is not exactly what the manufactured rating is - and rather than just looking at the GVWR - look at the GAWR - rear axle specifically.

A very good, and often overlooked point. In theory, my Chevy K2500 is rated to pull something like a 15,000 lb. fifth wheel - but oh! That 2,200 lb. load on the rear axle!! Not a chance.

And don't forget the front axle. Weight distribing bars shift weight onto the front axle. Many vehicles are precious close to their rated front axle loads with only passengers on board. This factor alone often explains seeming under rating of tow capacity. Excess loading on the front wheels will not only lead to expensive repairs, but will seriously affect handling.

Originally Posted by GT6921

Originally the Kia was rated for 5000# then down to 3500# the following year - but when we had our dealer install the hitch option for the "Tow Package" they put on a class III (Max 5000# with 500# on the ball) so if the vehicle can not tow that weight then why are they installing it - they are asking for law suits. When we bought our Kia we specifically stated we needed a vehicle that could pull 5K# for our boat - never mind any trailer at that point and we were assured it can.

Maybe Kia changed something critical to tow capacity. Or maybe they realized they had made a mistake. Either way, the "5000 lbs" rating on the dealer installed hitch means nothing, nothing at all in relation to your tow vehicle. To suggest that somehow puts a dealer stamp of approval on a 5,000 lb. limit is simply not true. And as for being "assured" it is good for your "5K boat", they did this by showing you the ratings in the manual, or dealer service manuals, or something authoritative from the manufacturer, right? You didn't just take a verbal "ok" from the salesman?

Note to Canadians: In the U.S., there have been recorded instances of salesmen LYING about tow capacity to make a sale or to keep a customer from being mad at them. These are rare instances, and are always rigourously punished, but it has been known to happen.

Here is how it works in the U.S. - You lose control of your vehicle while towing and there is an accident. It is discovered that you are have a load that exceeds ANY ONE of the various limiting capacities: axle ratings, gross vehicle weight rating, combined gross vehicle weight rating, gross weight rating of trailer, or tongue weight. Someone darted into your lane? Doesn't matter. Sudden strong gust of wind? Doesn't matter. Tire blew? Doesn't matter. YOU will be the one with a very good chance of being found liable for your and any other parties' damage. Not some lying salesman. Not somebody somewhere else who "is doing it".

And your insurance company will appear in court AGAINST you, not for you.

But, maybe you can beat it. Maybe.

Canadian law is almost certainly different.

Mark

[Silvertwinkie]

I'm not sure quite how to respond to that last post other than I wouldn't do what you are doing GT. Nor do I tow at 70 mph up hills. That might be a bit stereotypical. At any rate, my vote is still a no joy on the Nick's tow vehicle. I think folks here have given him some good feedback and now the decsion is up to him.

Bottom line, sales folks would place their mothers on the back to hold on to the trailer to make a sale...makes it neither right, nor safe.

To answer the question of:

"If I did not know the weight of Nicks intended purchase or the details of the Infiniti - how would I know it was under rated????"

Look it up before speaking. It's all on the web. Nick gave all the info on the truck and then said he wanted a 22' CCD. A few keystrokes and mouse clicks and you'd have your info. That's what I did at least.

Eric