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Old 08-28-2013, 08:58 AM   #99
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TETO: To Each Their Own (Internet slang)
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:01 AM   #100
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TETO: To Each Their Own (Internet slang)
Aaaah, thank you.
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:04 AM   #101
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And what exactly is that supposed to mean?

I suppose you think we all live in igloos up here in the GWN - might I remind you that certain parts (even excluding Alaska) of the United States are further north than I am right now in Southern Ontario.

I for one am quite sick of reading of the people who insist that you must have a 1-ton truck to tow a 34' Airstream. I'm not exceeding any factory number published with mine and have close to a 40% margin. It's almost like there is a great deal of mine is bigger than yours going on here.
Im not insisting anything....to each their own.

I'm quite sick of folks insisting that what's done in London applies too all of us.

For us it's not what CAN tow an AS, but do we have the payload to safely travel the way we are accustomed. Being able to bring the car-top boat and all needed boondocking gear without exceeding Factory limits.

Sorry if this offends you...but after 35 years in the auto business I still believe in the manufactures specifications.

BTW...I can see C-eh-n-eh-d-eh from my kitchen window, and yes, mine is bigger than yours.

Bob
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:07 AM   #102
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What's TETO?

There are plenty of understated tow ratings (and thus, GCWR), the ubiquitous minivan being one of them. There's a standard 3,500 lb rating on every minivan produced in the last thirty years, regardless of manufacturer. The construction and performance of these vehicles has improved immeasurably over time and yet the rating stays the same.

The reasons why there are understated ratings rest with the manufacturers. I can speculate that they don't test these vehicles for towing performance so don't want to commit to a higher figure for fear of being sued. I can also speculate that the manufacturers would prefer that you bought a high margin truck for towing rather than the lower margin van; the marketing is clearly "trucks for towing" and "minivans for Soccer Moms". I couldn't back any of that up, of course, but you do get to wondering, especially when the recent crop of minivans will rival a half ton truck in most towing related specifications.

Anyway, that's just my view of it.
Actually, I should back track on my own post, reminded as I was about a Town and Country minivan towing an SOB that I followed out of a campground last week. Not sure how heavy the SOB was, probably around the 3,500 lb mark, but the van was really low at the back. This was mostly because there was no WD or sway control, but was also partly because it was loaded to the roof with gear and people.

I guess if you're not going to give your low tow rated vehicle some assistance with beefed up and WD hitches as well as additional oil coolers and even towing mirrors, then yes, those tow ratings probably are about right.
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:11 AM   #103
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I'm quite sick of folks insisting that what's done in London applies too all of us.

For us it's not what CAN tow an AS, but do we have the payload to safely travel the way we are accustomed. Being able to bring the car-top boat and all needed boondocking gear without exceeding Factory limits.

Bob
It's only a reaction to being told by our neighbours south of the border that "You can't tow that with that", Bob.

When in Niagara Falls (the proper one) I often look over to see if I can spot you
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:26 AM   #104
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It's only a reaction to being told by our neighbours south of the border that "You can't tow that with that", Bob.

When in Niagara Falls (the proper one) I often look over to see if I can spot you
We be almost directly across from Crystal Beach...ahh, the old daze.

Bob
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Old 08-28-2013, 01:10 PM   #105
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Bob, you can't win this argument because the other side has nothing to lose. You have proven your point and time will show you are correct. Hope no one gets hurt in the mean time. Jim
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:18 PM   #106
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Bob, you can't win this argument because the other side has nothing to lose. You have proven your point and time will show you are correct. Hope no one gets hurt in the mean time. Jim
Who are you, the referee? Let the debate go on, no one's proven anything and no one's getting hurt. You might learn something.

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Old 08-28-2013, 02:38 PM   #107
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Matter of opinion. I have learned much from the forums, but I do not need it repeated again and again. Yet I still enjoy the banter and to read how some make fools out of themselves trying to convince others that their interpretations are correct and the facts do not matter. Keep it going, what a hoot. Jim
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:42 PM   #108
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And by the way, I am the referee. I keep score. No one is winning but it has been a great game. Jim
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:10 PM   #109
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I am sure there are as many different ways of determining tow ratings and GCWR as there are car companies but over the years I my feeling is that the key ingredient for the vehicle manufacturers is Risk vs. Reward.

For a vehicle manufacturer a tow rating should be a very scary thing for several reasons. For one weight is a very inadequate way to determine the tow ability of a trailer. We know that Aerodynamics, balance and hitch set up are all more important that weight alone. A properly connected 9000 pound 34' Airstream will be more stable in a straight line or in an emergency maneuver, stop quicker and be easier to tow than a badly connected 4000 pound box trailer. In fact it will be more stable than a badly connected 4000 pound Airstream.

So the vehicle manufacturer has control of maybe 1/3 of the towing equation, the trailers dynamics and the hitch system make up the other 2/3. Though they have very little control of most of the towing equation they will be the first to be blamed should something go wrong. For the vehicle company a tow rating comes with little control and a lot of risk. If a tow rating is not going to return a lot of vehicle sales in a profitable segment why take the risk? I can't blame them. But it does cause some really weird numbers to be created. If I was a vehicle manufacturer I would not touch the industry I would rate it all zero and say it is your problem.

When the Chrysler 300 came out in2005 the Magnum version was given a 3800 pound tow rating I was quite enthused with the vehicle’s wheelbase overhand ratio, independent suspension, low profile performance tires with very little sidewall sway, firmer suspension and tighter steering and a lower center of gravity. I felt it was going to be a great tow vehicle.

I asked the engineer in charge of the platform why not give it a 6000 rating as they would have a niche of a car that could tow. He said if you put more than 700 pounds on the back you would overload the rear tires. I said you would not do that as you would use weight distribution and you would only add 300 pounds to the rear axle. He said "I don't know that they are going to do that". Still trying I said "well the Grand Cherokee or Durango would have overloaded tires as well and you give them a high rating". He said "Look we don't have enough margin in this car to start risking a high tow rating we just wanted it higher than a mini-van". I asked have you towed anything with it yet. He said "No".

The previous Generation Durango being built at the same time with a 8800 pound rating was quite unstable and generally a poor tow vehicle on the road a 300 would run rings around it pretty much any way you want to measure it.

Another example is the Ford Edge, Flex, & Explorer all built on the same basic platform. The Edge is best tow vehicle due to its short overhang. The Flex is almost as good but the Explorer is a fair bit less stable due to a longer overhang and a softer suspension geared towards better off road capability. The Edge the best tow vehicle has a 3500 rating the Flex 4500 and the Explorer 5000. The Taurus also on the same platform handles as well as the Flex and has more power for towing but has a 1000 pound rating.

For towing an Airstream which is a very stable aerodynamic trailer hopefully connected properly looking at the specifications/properties of the tow vehicle will likely give you a better tow vehicle than being blinded by weight ratings that may not have anything to do with towing prowess.

I know it is very hard to get your head around this if you have never driven one of our combinations. if you are in London feel free to stop in and ask for a test drive. There is always something to play with here.

Andrew T
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:18 PM   #110
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We just learned something.

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Old 08-28-2013, 03:19 PM   #111
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Andrew, with all due respect, The auto manufacturer has ZERO control over the operation of the vehicle. Only the nut behind the wheel does. That is why the word "properly" is used throughout the owner manual for towing as well as many other operational instructions. The responsibility is 100% the owner/operator.
The ratings are strictly durability/safety based, with a SMALL margin for small increases when the competition comes out next year with marginally higher ratings. The new additional SAE rating will be performance based.
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:22 PM   #112
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It would appear that the manufacturers are having a wee bit of trouble swallowing their own cooking since they are not implementing the SAE J2807 tow rating guidelines. I guess they enjoy reading this section of Airforums. Jim
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